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Seabass's In-wall 100 Gallon

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jedimasterben

It would add phosphate - if I remember correctly part of the solution they are 'suspended' in contains it, but really not much, I wouldn't even consider it a contributor it should be so low.

 

I've seen people soak in bleach or hydrogen peroxide before (and sometimes after) doing an acid wash to help oxidize some of the leftover organics that could still be lodged inside the rocks (not necessarily bound to them). Kinda late now, though, since you've already got the goodies in with them.

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seabass

Thanks for the guidance.

Kinda late now, though, since you've already got the goodies in with them.

Yeah, but I actually have another bottle of One and Only that I originally considered dosing when the tank gets setup with rock and sand. Plus, it's easier and cheaper to deal with this now (before livestock is added).

 

I've unknowingly fought this battle before. However, since then, I've read some posts about phosphate on dry rock and became interested in prepping them beforehand: so I thought I'd spend some time up front dealing with it while livestock isn't in the tank. Phosphate contributes nothing positive and just makes reefing a drag.

 

I think I'm going going to rinse them in another SeaKlear solution (good thing a bottle treats like 30,000 gallons, or something ridiculous like that). This should flush the ammonia out of the rock, before I soak them in bleach. I've made the mistake of adding bleach to a bucket that had some ammonia in it before (potentially very dangerous). Or maybe I'll just use peroxide.

 

I am kind of married to these rocks now, so I'm going to make them work somehow. And just sticking them in my tank and fighting the resulting phosphate with GFO doesn't sound fun (done that before). Although I plan on using GFO, stripping phosphate from the water still leaves nutrients where algae wants to grow (on the surface of the rock).

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seabass

For those of you who are still following my rock thread; I added SeaKlear Phosphate Remover to the Brute container this morning, at lunch I emptied the water, filled it up with fresh tap water, dumped all the hydrogen peroxide that I could find in the house (about 150 oz.) into the tub, ate a chicken sandwich, emptied the tub again, took it in the garage, filled it from the hose, and poured in a gallon of concentrated bleach.

 

The peroxide solution did free up a few more organic chunks, but wasn't nearly strong enough the bleach the rock, The rock is soaking in the bleach until tonight, when I will empty it once again, and perform a final 1:10 acid to water bath. Hopefully I'll end up with clean rock this time.

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seabass

052913a.jpg052913b.jpg
The bleach did a decent job of cleaning off the rock. I used a 1:10 ratio of acid to water; there was a bigger reaction.

I was shocked by how much rock got eaten away. I made razor rock (much sharper than it was before). The porous areas look a bit like lava rock.
052913c.jpg

I'm not sure that I'd go that strong on the acid bath again. It ate away a good portion of the rock (even crumbles when you pick it up in some areas). The damp 21.4 lb rock is now only 20.9 lbs wet. Instead, I'd soak the rock in bleach longer an then do a couple of 1:20 baths (versus a 1:10 bath).

The rock is now in new saltwater with Dr.Tim's One and Only. I can't see how phosphate could have survived this latest assault; but we'll see. I don't think the rock can take another acid bath.

 

 

Warning: Chlorine and acid can be dangerous on their own, but together they produce chlorine gas which is very dangerous. Never mix the two, and make sure all of the chlorine is dissipated (and not just detoxified) before using an acidic product. Observe all safety precautions listed on the label of these products.

Edited by seabass
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FishDooD65

thats determination at its finest Jack! Good job and keep on keeping on. Hopefully you will have your rock free of phosphates. Nice job on the postings and descriptions, very informative to anyone and everyone.

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Squared

Awesome build!

 

I never new you could get phosphates out of your rock like that. I had a HUGE green hair algea problem in the past, wish I could have done what you are doing. I just waited for all the phosphate to leach out lol.

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fretfreak13

Yes, thank you for documenting your process so thoroughly!

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seabass

Thanks everyone.

 

 

The water in the container today is crystal clear (much better than before). It's testing at 0.5ppm ammonia (which I added yesterday), and 0.16ppm phosphate. Yep, that's right; I ran the test again to confirm (0.13ppm the first time and 0.16ppm the second time). I don't know what else to do about it. I kind of wish I had some One and Only left over for testing (although I'm not pointing to that as being the source, I'm simply curious what the source is).

 

If it's still coming from the rock (which I suspect it is), I wonder if it is coming from a specific rock (like that large 40 pounder), or just all of them. I should really fill a 5 gallon bucket with a couple of the smaller rocks as a test; however, I don't feel like messing with it right now. I added a small internal filter with some Seagel (Phosguard and activated carbon) in it. I'll probably setup the test bucket tomorrow.

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Mr. Microscope

This is awesome. I really wish I had spent the time to wash my dry rocks before using them in my reef. After all the measures I've taken to reduce algae in my system, I'm fairly certain it's due to phosphates leeching from my rocks. Good luck with more treatments.

 

BTW, I definitely notice a difference in certain rocks growing algae a lot more than others even in lower light. I think it's very likely that one or more of your rocks are causing the majority of the problems for you.

 

Looking forward to more. Great documentation here! Subscribed!

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seabass

WARNING:

I was checking online to see if bleach contained phosphate. I don't see that it does; however, I did see that in addition to ammonia, chlorine bleach reacts to strong acids (forming chlorine gas, which is very dangerous). I didn't know about the acid/chlorine reaction. Anyways, it's safer to let the chlorine fully dissipate before giving the rocks an acid bath (or do just one or the other).

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jedimasterben

Basically the hydrochloric acid would combine with the bleach and make mustard gas. :)

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Mr. Microscope

Yikes!

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seabass

Phosphate: 0.20ppm - I am running a small amount of Phosguard, but hoped the level would have dropped a bit. Just another indication that it's still coming from the rock. There are lots of coral skeletons and some shells on the rocks, so they definitely were formed in the ocean. I'm going to have to separate them to see if they all are leaching phosphate or just some of them.

Now I'm hoping that they will soon stop leaching additional phosphate into the water. Then I could put them in new water and not have them add phosphate. I don't even know if that's how this works or if it's some sort of half life thing (like radiation). :unsure:

What I do know is that I don't want to start the tank fighting phosphate issues. I guess it's back to work on the stand while these rocks cook for awhile.


Ammonia: 1.0ppm - I'm continuing to dose ammonia to build up the biofilter. I might up the dosage a bit after the ammonia levels start to drop.

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jedimasterben

Whenever I acid bathed my rocks, I found dozens of little filter feeder clams in them - all were alive previous to the acid, so I killed the bajeezus out of them. Luckily it seems like their flesh all came out during rinsing, so hopefully won't cause too much of an issue. Good thing I'll have an algae scrubber on my tank, I shouldn't have to worry about nitrate or phosphate :)

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Mstefa1

I can' see someone killing themselves combing bleach with ammonia.

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seabass
I can' see someone killing themselves combing bleach with ammonia.
Yeah, or bleach and acid. Bleach can be a very helpful tool, but you need to be extremely aware of what you might be combining it with. In general, you should use it outside and only with fresh clean water.
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seabass

Phosphate: 0.27ppm (9 times more than recommended) :rolleyes:

Ammonia: 2.0ppm

 

 

I'm getting concerned. I'm going to setup a test container for a couple of the rocks this afternoon.

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seabass

I'd like to bounce this idea off of you guys. I'm now thinking about heavy vodka dosing. I'm not that concerned about nitrate at this point, but figure that all the ammonia will be generating a good bit of that too. I just have live bacteria at this point, so I don't have much to lose. I'd have to use the 40B that I was going to use as the sump so that I could run a skimmer.

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Blubbernaut

As far as the ammonia goes, I had a spike of ammonia not too long ago which was fixed with some spectacular bottled bacteria. All ammonia was gone in a week, but nitrate took a while to get rid of.

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jedimasterben

I'd like to bounce this idea off of you guys. I'm now thinking about heavy vodka dosing. I'm not that concerned about nitrate at this point, but figure that all the ammonia will be generating a good bit of that too. I just have live bacteria at this point, so I don't have much to lose. I'd have to use the 40B that I was going to use as the sump so that I could run a skimmer.

I would do vinegar instead of vodka (I've read from RHF that vinegar is preferable to both sugar and vodka as a carbon source).

 

An algae scrubber would work better and faster, IMHO.

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seabass

As far as the ammonia goes, I had a spike of ammonia not too long ago which was fixed with some spectacular bottled bacteria. All ammonia was gone in a week, but nitrate took a while to get rid of.

Thanks. :)

 

I don't care about nitrate because this water will never get transferred to my new tank. And, for the purpose of P reduction (via carbon dosing), nitrate would actually be necessary. The Redfield ratio, C:N:P = 106:16:1 (which might not actually be an accurate ratio of consumption), indicates that N can become a limiting factor in the the consumption of P when dosing carbon. So I see the presence of N as being a positive when trying to reduce P via carbon dosing.

 

I would do vinegar instead of vodka (I've read from RHF that vinegar is preferable to both sugar and vodka as a carbon source).

Thanks. I also see some people use all three. Any particular reason that vinegar is preferred?

An algae scrubber would work better and faster, IMHO.

I kind of want to avoid any algae at this point.

 

I'm now thinking about heavy vodka dosing.

Maybe I'll even put some in my tank. ;)

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jedimasterben

Thanks. I also see some people use all three. Any particular reason that vinegar is preferred?

It's been a while since I read it, I don't remember if there was a reason or not, but that is what he recommended. :/

 

I kind of want to avoid any algae at this point.

Algae is your friend. For every reef out there, there is a ridiculous amount of algae to help keep that reef healthy. :)

 

Maybe I'll even put some in my tank. ;)

:lol:

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Chadf
I can' see someone killing themselves combing bleach with ammonia.

 

I've done it in a toilet not knowing any better, literally takes your breath away.

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seabass

Algae is your friend.

 

She ain't my friend. :(

 

For every reef out there, there is a ridiculous amount of algae to help keep that reef healthy. :)

 

:) I do get that. It's just that that I don't have a setup currently available to separate a fuge or scrubber. Plus, with rocks that are leaching this much phosphate (and not having any pods or cleanup crew yet), I have a vision of algae filling every pore in the the rock. I anticipate that this could become a problem down the road.

 

So I'm going to try and fight this in algae free zone until I get the problem under better control. Then a little algae might actually be welcome, as it should be easier to keep under control.

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seabass

So I'm researching this problem some more (while contemplating ditching all this rock), and I found this thread.

I guess this isn't that unusual. At this point I'm leaning toward soaking it in RO water and dosing Seaklear to help expedite the leaching process. The LC wants to bind to the alkalinity in saltwater. I can always get another bottle of bacteria.

I haven't read the entire thread, but it seems that this might take some time. At least I feel like I can eventually use this rock.

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