tibbsy07 IM10

[tibbsy07]

Thanks - unfortunately it doesn't like exactly like that (that was the scape before I started epoxying it all together and, of course, it didn't fit back into place like I had it in that picture...)

 

I've still got to finish epoxying the upper right piece to the base and then I can work with that to get the scape as close to the last picture as I can. I've been preoccupied with the stand, and I haven't really even had the time to even look at my current tank or do maintenance, let alone tinker with this set up.

[tibbsy07]

Still no go on the stand. I have been in lab from about 8 am until 1:30am every day this week, with the exception of last night when I finally was able to go home about 7pm, and I ate dinner a promptly fell asleep. I checked the pico this morning and I have what looks like cyano in a few places, namely the AC70. I have ways of fixing that...

 

As for the stand, I haven't had a second to work on it. I'm going by the hardware store today to get a file or something to bring down the ends of the supports I attached so that the structure of the stand is stronger, but that it all fits. Hopefully this will make my life easier. Otherwise I am going to have to figure something else out - maybe a way to make the top of the stand totally flat by putting something over the top that compensates for the upward bowing.

 

I emailed Dr. Tims a while back and finally got a response, though it was a bit condescending, especially considering my microbiology credentials are in my work email signature. I asked some more questions for clarification, so hopefully I'll actually get something out of it.

 

I am bringing a sample of Microbacter7 to campus tomorrow as I have to be here for some cell culture work.

[jgaepi]

Why the light diffuser egg crate below the rock? I have a bunch of it lying around after I made my frag rack. Is it to keep the sand in place?

[jbb]

Why the light diffuser egg crate below the rock? I have a bunch of it lying around after I made my frag rack. Is it to keep the sand in place?

 

Keeps the rock from moving around while sitting on bare glass.

[jedimasterben]

I emailed Dr. Tims a while back and finally got a response, though it was a bit condescending

Not surprising, considering he sells magic in a bottle that is not to be questioned.

[tibbsy07]

Why the light diffuser egg crate below the rock? I have a bunch of it lying around after I made my frag rack. Is it to keep the sand in place?

Keeps the rock from moving around while sitting on bare glass.

This. I have removed it. Again, that's not my final scape. That was temporary - My actual scape is the rockwork in the pictures above that one. That was the scape I built on the eggcrate so that I could move it around and not scratch my tank up. Unfortunately as soon as I took it all apart to epoxy it together, the pieces didn't fit exactly as I had them there, so it's similar but not exact. I have removed the eggcrate. Currently the tank is on the carpet floor with nothing in it, and the stand is disassembled.

[jgaepi]

Not surprising, considering he sells magic in a bottle that is not to be questioned.

Funny, considering I am using it and my cycle is on a bridge to nowhere. http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/352229-preparing-for-tank-2/

 

This. I have removed it. Again, that's not my final scape. That was temporary - My actual scape is the rockwork in the pictures above that one. That was the scape I built on the eggcrate so that I could move it around and not scratch my tank up. Unfortunately as soon as I took it all apart to epoxy it together, the pieces didn't fit exactly as I had them there, so it's similar but not exact. I have removed the eggcrate. Currently the tank is on the carpet floor with nothing in it, and the stand is disassembled.

Yeah, I remember that you changed the scape. Wondering if using the egg crate was a good thing. I could see it keeping sand in place though.

[tibbsy07]

Not surprising, considering he sells magic in a bottle that is not to be questioned.

Right. I mean, if he gives me some certain answers then I'll believe his claims, but here are my concerns -

 

This is what I sent the first time

 

 

I am setting up a new aquarium and I was wondering about your products for nano-aquariums, One and Only and the Eco-Balance blends. The bacteria largely important for the removal of ammonia and nitrites are non-spore forming microbes, correct? How do you keep them shelf stable? Presumably Nitrobacter Nitrosomonas, and Nitrococcus are hardy bugs, but I can’t seem them staying alive for more than a month or so in a bottle with no nutrient replenishment. I assume these aren’t the only microbes in the bottle.

Your website also says that the bacteria are cultured on a microstructure vs planktonic cells, allowing them to stay active for a longer period, but that doesn’t make sense to me. Once you remove the biofilms from the microstructure, the cells will shift back to planktonic, either through their own dispersal or through replication with lack of a surface to form a biofilm.

I’m just trying to get a better understanding of what I put in my tank before I purchase. Thanks!

 

 

This is what I got back

 

Hello

You mention Eco-Balance but all the questions seem to be related to One & Only.

One & Only contains a variety of ammonia- and nitrite-oxidizers (AOBs and NOBs) not of which are spore-formers but that does not mean they don’t have other ways to preserve the cell. They use disaccharides to accomplish this. If they didn’t then there would not be any AOBs or NOBs as these bacteria do not always have a constant source of ammonia or nitrite. Furthermore, just because a bacterium does not have nutrients for a prolonged period of time means they die.

As for the microstructure - not sure what you mean. The bacteria are on the structure and stay on it when you add them to the tank. Do some cells become planktonic sure but not the majority which stay within the biofilm the AOB and NOB form.

Best regards

DrTim’s Aquatics

 

 

Basically I was just told that bacteria can use disaccharides (sugars) as a food source, not just ammonia or nitrite - which is true. I know that, and all microbiologists know that. But that fails to discuss what is REALLY going on with those organisms. They are using ammonia and nitrite as electron acceptors. Sugars would be used, or in this case because these organisms are autotrophic they use a process called carbon fixing, to gain nutrients/cell mass/divide/etc. The reduction of ammonia and nitrite are for energy purposes, nothing more. I feel like they or I have a misunderstanding in the equation. Even still, the fact is that the carbon dioxide needed for carbon fixing by these organisms is limited in the bottles because they are sealed. As would be sugars or any other nutrient source because the media is finite. There isn't an endless supply. Even in perfect lab conditions, bacteria are hard to keep shelf stable. Not to mention they end up with massively mutated genomes after long periods of time just left sitting...

 

tl;dr - I don't think there is enough nutrient availability or electron acceptors for energy requirements for shelf stability.

 

Next part - they evaded my question by acting like I asked something stupid. I asked that question about microstructures because their site specifically says:

 

How is One & Only different from other bacterial additives?

One & Only Nitrifying Bacteria is different than other bacterial mixes on the market today for a variety of reasons:

• It is the only mixture currently available to the hobbyist that is grown and certified by Dr. Timothy A. Hovanec,

• The ammonia- and nitrite-oxidizing bacteria in One & Only are grown together as a microbial community of bacteria which means they work together more effectively.

• The bacteria in One & Only are grown on a microstructure, not as “free” cells in water, which helps the bacteria stay active for a longer time period

 

 

The reason I asked is because they grow the cells on microstructures, aka they grow them as biofilms. That doesn't mean squat. They are trying to say "We grow them as biofilms vs free-swimming (aka planktonic) cells, and many studies have shown that biofilm bacteria act differently than planktonic" which is true BUT, as soon as the bacteria are released from the biofilm, they convert back. The bottle you buy is full of PLANKTONIC cells, so they will act just as any other planktonic cell of the same kind. They will NOT act like biofilm bacteria because they are no longer IN a biofilm.

 

Their other claim about being grown in a community is crap. They only work more effectively as a community if they still exist as a community. This claim suggests that the bacteria are "trained" or something in their mixed community so they are more effective later, but that's bullshit. They are more effective because they benefit from each other in ways they don't benefit on their own. It's not like removal of bacteria A allows bacteria A to keep the same ability as it had in the biofilm. You would get the same effect if you took two bacterial cell cultures grown independently and then mixed them. BAM - community time. Now, they ARE mixed in the bottle, so you could say the community remains intact. But then, considering all other products like this are mixtures of bacteria, they too would be bottled as a community, so this "difference" is silly to claim.

 

Now - to their answer that "the microstructures are in your tank"... So that means that the microstructures referred to and the community referred to in their FAQ exist in MY tank once I add the bacteria. Well then this is no different than any other probiotic aquarium supplement. They are all mixtures of bacteria that grow on microstructures in the tank as well as forming mixed communities.

 

I very politely and professionally asked these questions in a follow up email for clarification, stating that I must be misunderstanding something.

 

I may buy some to look at under a microscope, just to see if the cells are intact or lysed...

 

Science rules. Especially microbiology.

[tibbsy07]

Funny, considering I am using it and my cycle is on a bridge to nowhere. http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/352229-preparing-for-tank-2/

 

Yeah, I remember that you changed the scape. Wondering if using the egg crate was a good thing. I could see it keeping sand in place though.

Yeah, some people use eggcrate to hold sand in place, but any CUC critter that sifts through the sand will have problems. They can't get through the egg crate. For a deep sand bed, this would be fine, but for mine it won't work.

 

 

 

I should also note that I have no issue with the fact that Dr Tims and Microbacter7 from Brightwell aquatics help cycle a tank, but I think it's more to do with nutrient addition that are useful mainly to the microbes in the tank rather than adding the microbes themselves. Once you are a month out, I doubt seriously that these microbes are still alive. Even if they ARE, there are numerous studies that have shown that strains left on a benchtop on a plate for a few days acquire any number of random mutations, leading to problems with experiments, replication of data, etc.

[jgaepi]

Once you are a month out, I doubt seriously that these microbes are still alive. Even if they ARE, there are numerous studies that have shown that strains left on a benchtop on a plate for a few days acquire any number of random mutations, leading to problems with experiments, replication of data, etc.

 

For me, I don't know if the bacteria bottle had sat around in a 110 degree warehouse somewhere. I dosed the ammonia bottle into 7g of actual water and my ammonia level hasn't gotten above 3 ppm even though the bottle said it would. It barely got above 1 ppm and essentially dropped after a few days. Never got anywhere near the 3 ppm. Nitrite level still sits at 0.

[tibbsy07]

Hmmm. If i were you, I'd get some filter floss or something out of a tank that has life in it and is going well, pitch that in to your cycling tank for a while and add some more ammonia. It sounds like you have a small cycle going, but that you may not have enough yet.

[hey]

I should send you a bottle of microbe lift special blend supposedly bacteria dosing aid, I like the results I get from using it but honestly calling something special blend and not saying exactly what it is makes me suspicious. That and it smells aweful.

[Eisernes]

Still no go on the stand. I have been in lab from about 8 am until 1:30am every day this week, with the exception of last night when I finally was able to go home about 7pm, and I ate dinner a promptly fell asleep. I checked the pico this morning and I have what looks like cyano in a few places, namely the AC70. I have ways of fixing that...

 

As for the stand, I haven't had a second to work on it. I'm going by the hardware store today to get a file or something to bring down the ends of the supports I attached so that the structure of the stand is stronger, but that it all fits. Hopefully this will make my life easier. Otherwise I am going to have to figure something else out - maybe a way to make the top of the stand totally flat by putting something over the top that compensates for the upward bowing.

 

I emailed Dr. Tims a while back and finally got a response, though it was a bit condescending, especially considering my microbiology credentials are in my work email signature. I asked some more questions for clarification, so hopefully I'll actually get something out of it.

 

I am bringing a sample of Microbacter7 to campus tomorrow as I have to be here for some cell culture work.

 

I think we would all be very interested in what you find out from the MB7 sample. I've been using a mixture of it, micro lift, and zeo bak to boost my bacteria population for almost a year now. There is a bio filter in the tank but who's to say it came from any or all of those bottles. They might be all the same thing or they might all be water lol.

[xiaoxiy]

I think we would all be very interested in what you find out from the MB7 sample. I've been using a mixture of it, micro lift, and zeo bak to boost my bacteria population for almost a year now. There is a bio filter in the tank but who's to say it came from any or all of those bottles. They might be all the same thing or they might all be water lol.

I second this.

 

I'd almost be willing to chip in to purchase ya a few different brands of "bacteria" in a bottle so that you can look at them under a microscope and get back to us.

 

(If you're willing/have time)

 

Xiaoxi

[metrokat]

Doc, I could send you little vials of Dr Tims and other additives to look under a scope. Do you have any vials you can throw in the mail for these, preferably ones that don't break like those itty bitty plastic V shaped culture things. Or maybe I could soak a cotton ball and sent it in a zip lock.

[tibbsy07]

I have tubes available and will happily mail them to anyone who wants to provide me a sample. All can be shipped via envelope. DM me if interested. I will post pictures, too.

[Cameron6796]

Oh I cant ... Canada lol. But I'm interested in seeing the photos and reading any info about them.

[DaveFason]

How is the build going? Pulling hair still?

[tibbsy07]

How is the build going? Pulling hair still?

Yeah a bit. Bought a file this weekend and used it some. It works, but it's a HUGE pain in the ass. Not very smooth, carves the wood pretty bad. Oh well. Almost there!

 

Heard back from Dr Tim's. Whoever is writing their replies is one snarky S.O.B.! Willing to discuss the science, though, which is nice.

 

When they said they use disaccharides, they do not mean that the bacteria in the bottle of One and Only are using disaccharides for nutrients. I was concerned that they said this, because they would be dead wrong - chemoautotrophs don't use disaccharides in that way. Apparently they use disaccharides in some other way, possibly to store ribosomal energy - I don't deal with these types of microbes much so it's a bit out of my knowledge base beyond the simplest terms. I'll have to dig a bit more to figure out WHAT they are doing with disaccharides.

 

The biofilm/microstructure stuff is pretty cool. They actually grow the bacteria on little microstructures - just little tiny pieces of shells and stuff, and then they bottle it all. So you actually get the bacteria and the microstructures.

 

Apparently my questions were "over-thinking" according to them, but I just don't think they like actually having to EXPLAIN what the hell they are actually selling.

[tibbsy07]

Ok, so I'm terrible with these things, but I've been asked to make a christmas list by my parents. I'm trying to think of aquarium stuff I need, but I can't really think of anything.

[hey]

Ok, so I'm terrible with these things, but I've been asked to make a christmas list by my parents. I'm trying to think of aquarium stuff I need, but I can't really think of anything.

 

bulk rox carbon, bulk filter floss, any shelf stable foods, gadgets to prune macros and corals, epoxy and super glue, tiny frag rack, purigen packs, vodka... or whiskey. I like getting lots of those things you hate making a trip to the lfs to buy or lowes just for one small thing.

 

you have an rodi setup i assume? filters for that or salt and additives would be nice aswell.

[tibbsy07]

I need to figure out a good carbon. I've been using Marineland Black Diamond or whatever. Seems to work ok.

[hey]

I need to figure out a good carbon. I've been using Marineland Black Diamond or whatever. Seems to work ok.

 

seachem or brs rox are the go tos

[tibbsy07]

bulk rox carbon, bulk filter floss, any shelf stable foods, gadgets to prune macros and corals, epoxy and super glue, tiny frag rack, purigen packs, vodka... or whiskey. I like getting lots of those things you hate making a trip to the lfs to buy or lowes just for one small thing.

 

you have an rodi setup i assume? filters for that or salt and additives would be nice aswell.

I actually don't have an RO/DI set up because buying RO/DI water at the grocery store is cheaper for the amount I use ($0.30/gallon, 10g a month tops), than buying/maintaining my own RO/DI line.

[hey]

I actually don't have an RO/DI set up because buying RO/DI water at the grocery store is cheaper for the amount I use ($0.30/gallon, 10g a month tops), than buying/maintaining my own RO/DI line.

 

ah, I get surprisingly long life out of my filters which is nice but I got one because topping off 1g more or less a day is a pita in jugs.