Peroxide saves my Tank! With pics to Prove It!

[seabass]

I know that some people like to kill off algae with a flame (since this is an algae thread). While that sounds safe enough to treat algae, I figure that it would be very dangerous/deadly to remove zoanthids/palys that way.

 

I'm not sure what (if any) toxins would be released by treating mushrooms with fire. Hypothetically, (if I were to try it) I'd remove them first and only treat the remaining foot. You'd want a clean cut as opposed to producing bits that could float off somewhere else. I'm not sure if loose pieces would be enough to generate a new polyp, but they are resilient creatures (I know that leaving the foot behind is often enough for it to regenerate).

Kalk paste, lemon juice, super glue or epoxy (basically the main aiptasia treatments) might work on the remaining flesh. Have you tried cutting them and using the 35% peroxide on the remaining foot? What about making a paste with baking soda and the 35% peroxide?

 

But back to the flame. I'm wondering what people think about torching the remaining foot. You'd want a small flame (like from a butane torch). They make some pretty small ones that might work (for algae, or otherwise):

• Etou Jet Flame Pencil Butane Gas Welding Soldering Pen
• Zippo Flex Neck Utility Lighter

 

I'd like to hear what others think before recommending something that might be potentially dangerous.

[brandon429]

I will try any lemon juice I havent consulted mild acids yet!!!

 

but I have something funny to show you Ill try to make a vid

 

 

they are flame proof

 

 

I know how redic that sounds but o man o man imagine the thirsty deserts crossed in attempts to save the reefbowl

 

fire was first

 

you can literally hold the pulse of the windproof grill lighter on them for 15 seconds, and they open the next day with but a flesh wound off monty python. totally not joking these are psycho corals. Ill make a vid called fireproof corals maybe it'll go viral lol.

ill drain the bowl down again, hold fire on one until Im literally scared the heat w crack the tank or gas the non targets, remove heat, refill, and in about 5 hours fully open with one little scar mark

 

they are too juicy man!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

im sure some aspect of fire can kill them, for sure. but its the duration, after 15 secs my whole bowl is prolly filled with monoxide man lol

I like the lemon juice idea, or maybe some type of drain and treat option for it

[seabass]

That would be neat to see fireproof mushrooms. I've watched one of your videos where you put 35% peroxide on a mushroom, but I didn't know they were flameproof. However, they have a pretty impressive slime response that protects them from a variety of potential dangers. That's probably why fire and 35% peroxide don't seem to phase them (and why cutting off the polyp might be necessary).

 

IDK, have you tried treating it with 35% peroxide after you cut off the polyp? I'm thinking it might be like when you get a cut on your hand; putting 3% peroxide on the cut will cause it to bubble up, while it does practically nothing to healthy tissue. I'd like to see you try cutting the head off of one, and making a baking soda and 35% peroxide paste to treat the remaining tissue. Who knows, might be worth a shot.

[brandon429]

NICE call

 

maybe the cutting or burning will bypass any protective layers. I know im in the hole for an api test vid too lol but the burn one for sure this weekend I have simply ignored the red mushrooms up until I noticed last nite Im on my last year with this until total takeover. overlords will have command of the reefbowl by august if we dont get nuclear.

 

Im also not opposed to putting actual acid drop by drop on each one eventually as last resort at the cost of my pods. id do standard drain and treat and rinse and refill. sorry to use our algae thread lol but Im desperate and not above doing whatever it takes to kill the minions lol. if this was just an algae invasion we'd be so easily set heh.

 

I have never, never been tried in reefing like the act of trying to beat red mushrooms in a tank thats 8 inches across and 3/4 full of old rock.

[seabass]

I had a magical device that melted them off the rocks, a zapper so to speak custom built for me

Like this? http://www.amazon.com/PSI-Majano-Wand-Mojano-Zapper/dp/B0052ZK6WK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1397246229&sr=8-1

[brandon429]

yes I do believe that was it id never even bothered searching lol

 

mine was a bit smaller but this above will absolutely clear them from the middle portions and thats better than a total takeover. last nite in cleaning it was clear a takeover was coming Im glad I posted.

 

 

 

 

I think one thing pertinent to this thread in my issue is waiting to act.

 

 

 

 

look where it got me, to the edge

 

I remember the day there was ONE

 

ONE red hitchhiker I could see it plain as day.

 

and I thought hmm just one, its a red color addition, Ill control them. procrastinate

nearly every scenario in here is some form of this sequence its all about hesitation. I shoulda ripped that portion of the bowl out the day I saw him.

 

fail to act deliberately, take a chance with an invader who can maximize vital space faster than your preferred favia, hallmark of the thread

 

Ill still make the burning video its sick lol

[Cramsmith]

thanks! will keep you all posted

[SantaMonica]

Good to hear that peroxide is helping some people. If you are still having trouble, however, these two things might help:

 

What is Periphyton?

Periphyton is what turns your rocks different colors. You know... the white rocks you started with in SW, or the grey rocks (or brown wood) you started with in FW. After several months or years, the rocks become a variety of different colors and textures. Why? Because the periphyton that has grown on it is a mix of different living things, of different colors, and thicknesses. And the important part is: It is LIVING.

That's right: The colored stuff that has coated your rocks is all living organisms. Sponges, microbes, algae, cyano, biofilms, and of course coralline. After all, "peri" means "around the outside", and "phyto" means "plant". Ever slipped in a slippery puddle? That's probably periphyton that made it slippery. It's a very thin coating on the rocks, sometimes paper thin.

There is a lot of photosynthetic organisms in periphyton, and this of course means that they need light; but they need nutrients too (ammonia, nitrate, phosphate). And as you might figure, they will be on the lighted portions of the rocks. And they will grow to intercept food particles in the water, based on the water flow. Just think about how sponges orient their holes for water flow; the micro sponges in periphyton do it too but on a tiny scale.

What about under the rocks, in the dark areas? Well these periphyton don't get light, so they are primarily filter feeders. So they REALLY grow and position themselves to be able to intercept food particles. And they don't really need to fight off algae, because algae does not grow in the dark, so they have no need for anti-algae tactics like plants in the light do.

Reef studies have show that at certain depths, more of the filtering of the water comes from periphyton and benthic algae than comes from the phytoplankton which filters the deeper water. And in streams, almost all the filtering is done by the periphyton. So, what you have in rocks that are "mature" or "established" is a well-developed layer of periphyton; and all the things that comes from it.

This is why mandarin fish can eat directly off the rocks of an "established" tank (tons of pods grow in the periphyton), but not off the rocks of a new tank. Or why some animals can lay their eggs on established rocks, but not new ones. Or why established tanks seem to "yo-yo" less than new ones. Even tangs can eat periphyton directly when it's thick enough. Yes periphyton can also develop on the sand, but since the sand is moved around so much, the periphyton does not get thick like it does on rocks. So thick periphyton on long established rocks is your friend. And totally natural too. Keep in mind though, we are not talking about nuisance algae on the rocks; we are only referring to the very-thin layer of coloring that coats the rocks.

But what happens when you "scrape the stuff off your rocks"? Well you remove some of the periphyton, which means you remove some of your natural filter and food producer. What if you take the rocks out and scrub them? Well now you not only remove more of your natural filter and food producer, but the air is going to kill even more of the microscopic sponges in it. And what if you bleach them? Well, goodbye all filtering and food producing for another year. It's an instant reduction of the natural filtering that the periphyton was providing.

However, what if you just re-arrange the rocks? Well, some of the periphyton that was in the light, now will be in the dark; so that part will die. And some of the periphyton that was in the dark will now be in the light, so it will not be able to out-compete with the photosynthetic growth and will be covered over and die too. And even if the light stays the same, the direction and amount of water flow (and food particles) will change; sponges that were oriented to get food particles from one directly will now starve. So since the light and food supply is cut off, the filtering that the periphyton was providing stops almost immediately from just re-arranging.

Starvation takes a little longer however. The organisms won't die immediately since they have some energy saved up; instead, they will wither away over a period of weeks. So on top of the instant reduction in filtering, you get a somewhat stretched-out period of nutrients going back into the water. And after all this, it takes another long period of time for the periphyton to build up to the levels it was at. Even changing the direction of a powerhead will affect the food particle supply in the area it used to be pointed at.

So the recommendation is to try to keep everything the same. Pick your lighting, flow, layout, and try to never move or change anything. It's a different way of thinking, but you'll have a stronger natural filter and food producer because of it.

------and-----------

Phosphate flow out of rocks

Many people, when they get their nutrients low for the first time, get worried when more (not less) algae starts to grow on their rocks. It seems really strange, especially when nitrate and phosphate have gone lower than before. What is happening is that phosphate is coming out of the rocks. Remember, phosphate is invisible, so you can only see the effects of it, and it always "flows" from higher concentrations to lower concentrations (just like heat does).

Example: If your room is warm, and you put a cold object on the floor, heat from the air in the room will "flow" into the object until the object and the air are the same temperature. Example 2: If you put a hot object on the floor, heat will "flow" out of the object and go into the air in the room, again, until the air and the object are the same temperature. Now suppose you open your windows (in the winter). The warm air in your room will go out the windows, and it will get colder in the room. The object on the floor is now warmer than the air, so heat will flow out of the object and into the air, and then out the window.

Think of phosphate as the heat, and your rocks as the object, and your windows as the scrubber. As the scrubber pulls phosphate out of the water, the phosphate level in the water drops. Now, since the phosphate level in the water is lower than the phosphate level in the rocks, phosphate flows from the rocks into the water, and then from the water into the scrubber. This continues until the phosphate levels in the rocks and water are level again. And remember, you can't see this invisible flow.

This flow causes an interesting thing to happen. As the phosphate comes out of the rocks, it then becomes available to feed algae as soon as the phosphate reaches the surface of the rocks where there is light. So, since the surface of the rocks is rough and has light, it starts growing MORE algae there (not less) as the phosphate comes out of the rocks. This is a pretty amazing thing to see for the first time, because if you did not know what was happening you would probably think that the algae was mysteriously being added to your tank. Here are the signs of phosphate coming out of the rocks:

1. The rocks are older, and have slowly developed algae problems in the past year.

2. Your filters have recently started to work well, or you made them stronger.

3. Nitrate and phosphate measurements in the water are low, usually the lowest they have been in a long time.

4. Green hair algae (not brown) on the rocks has increased in certain spots, usually on corners and protrusions at the top.

5. The glass has not needed cleaning as much.

Many people have never seen the effects of large amounts of phosphate coming out of the rocks quickly. But sure enough it does if you keep nutrients low enough in the water. How long does it continue? For 2 months to a year, depending on how much phosphate is in the rocks, how much feeding you do, and how strong your filters are. But one day you will see patches of white rock that were covered in green hair the day before; this is a sure sign that the algae are losing their phosphate supply from the rocks and can no longer hold on. Now it's just a matter of days before the rocks are clear.

[brandon429]

The reason we have examples in this thread of algae scrubber users trying our method is because the rocks don't always stay clear like your ending statement.

 

 

 

 

You don't usually post in support of peroxide, so I have to assume your cut and paste above of the exact same post Ive seen on four forums now was meant to challenge our thread...which is good, we take em.

 

 

 

 

 

the day any one of these algae containment systems becomes the best, everyone will flock to that and nobody will use the second rate one any longer. as of now we can find threads where both of our posted methods didnt work as stated due to X variables we know are always present and sometimes undisclosed.

 

 

 

I've seen some highly diverse uncured rock or specialty live rock growth from tanks pumping natural seawater, and those fit the examples you use, but the fact remains many people don't want to house the natural plant species we can use to bind waste because they are unsightly, and not at all immune to broadcasting of smaller algae colonies as a mechanism well documented in threads using both of these oppositional methods. By all means, convert the pico army into algae farmers I say go for it

 

We both offer our known methodologies to affect reefing as we see it and thats fair play, but your actual typed input to this thread would be more helpful for us.

 

 

 

I enjoy reading your original works. If we got the original thing above, and your general forum post got the copy and paste, then its slight on them but a cut and paste here among this much customization really stands out bro. You have your before and after pics as well, so I still support your method when people select it. The feed binding, microbenthic life support etc I do believe.

 

Ill always say to be dynamic, predictive and deliberate and you can fix any situation and that includes using ats to solve algae probs if thats someones goal.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

in the fringing reef model we use for many pico reef builds its opposite of what you list, rather than a sedentary approach we are sometimes ripping the mess out of the tank with forceful water cleanings...not that one way is better than another, but its capitalizing on how _varied_ reef environments can be to still grow the corals we like.

I always lean towards the active fringing model for pico reefs, simply because nothing has been shown alternatively to last long term. someday there will be a new way, cant wait to see how that manifests.

 

I would never recommend for most of these tanks to set up shop and leave it without manipulation, most of our smaller problem tanks require detritus removal vs total in house degredation and reliance on any all natural system to work. I think the ats method only can work, all someone has to do is choose and run the method

 

 

 

 

 

 

did the uas seem to be a cure all worthy of a post n run in this thread?

 

http://www.tcmas.org/v4/forums/showthread.php?50928-Hang-On-Glass-(HOG)-Upflow-Algae-Scrubber-(UAS)-with-Green-Grabber-surface/page2

 

 

there will always be camps who can command their particular method a little stronger than the average reef keeper, Ive found the key to algae control in the tank is not forcing one method on all tanks, be so dynamic you can command the top three without fail and that should cure just about anything (opinions vary on the top 3 always)

[duganderson]

I have three gorgonians (spiny orange sea rod, purple sea rod and another purple one) with some green hair algae. I've had good luck treating all of my corals by pulling them out the tank and brushing on undiluted hydrogen peroxide, waiting 5 minutes, brushing again, waiting 5 minutes, then rinsing.

 

Is this likely safe for my gorgonians too? I've heard they can be a little sensitive.

 

 

 

 

[brandon429]

Not if polyps emerge afterwards

 

If you have pics that would be a gold mine we have no references for gorg direct application in any peroxide thread thats neat thanks for the post

 

They have a rhind type flesh but I had no guess as to if they could take direct application. So many corals can

 

Pics if you ever treat them again~

[jedimasterben]

Depends on the gorgonian. The different species can be very different. Some are very sensitive to peroxide, some are not (I've tested three different species, I'll have to look and see what they are though).

[Joe Pusdesris]

Has anyone tried Peroxide with a UV running? UV should cause a reaction with the peroxide to produce hydroxyl radicals which are quite potent.

[Joe Pusdesris]

brandon429, how did that red mushroom end up growing? Did the peroxide continue to cause rapid growth?

[brandon429]

Joe thanks for asking! yes Im under attack still. rarely have I been embarrased to post pics of my setup but half the bowl is red shrooms and the other half is great sps growth and brain corals and acans lol

Its that majano wand, that, for sure is the fix. Money has been tight lately and I dont have the 120.00 budgeted for that but I will be able to by end of month and get on top of it. I can certainly save the tank. there are approximately 100 red mushrooms how disgusting is that lol.

they are stinging and killing some, but not all, of my red blastomussa colony that is 14 years inside of vases as a single strain, and for this im angry heh

I will get them soon enough, and like andrewk's fine pico reef mine will weather a storm and rebuild itself.

Reefing of the past was set up a tank looking awesome and run it until it dies then retire that thread.

today's reefing is show what happens to an old tank, like an old natural reef....it got old by rebuilding as needed. thats what we show now, the sad loss of some aspect of hardware failure or in my case a natural non nutrient based invader, its kind of fun to watch your half eaten reef rebuild itself slowly lol

This thread needs to be linked to our peroxide thread, good success coming here

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/347949-biopellets-and-hair-algae/page-2#entry4775626

[Joe Pusdesris]

You should sell those mushrooms to pay for the majano zapper. I am trying to get a nice colony of red mushrooms going but I think my lighting is too intense.

[brandon429]

Bump for posters with recent hair algae probs

 

 

I guess its been four years now between this thread, the pest algae challenge thread at rc and others on r2r peroxide has been established as a permanent fixture in reefkeeping for certain invader issues. It will not be going away any time soon

 

 

Even though individual application methods vary and results vary, these threads that have before And after pics using guided/consistent methods log cures as well as any method including gfo, animal grazing, refugium use, peroxide has equal cure and sustain rates.

[PorkchopExpress]

Hello everyone! As instructed by brandon429 I'm seeking help in this thread. I was infected with dinos about 2 months ago and have been fighting it nonstop daily ever since. Although mine aren't nearly as bad as some of the plagues I've seen pictures of, they have caused my corals a lot of stress due to the fact that they seem to like to hang out on dead tissue or decaying tissue on recovering corals and won't let them heal. Case in point is my birdsnest which I bleached when I first changed my lighting 3 months ago. Since I got dinos, they grow on the tips of the birdsnest not allowing it to heal. I don't think the dinos attack my corals, per se, but definitely hinder growth. I've also lost 3 fish since starting varying treatments and a gorgeous hawaiian harlequin shrimp. Probably not from the dinos but perhaps from the treatments I've tried. Things I've tried:

 

- Lights out for 3 days: weakens them for about a day but they come back. Lights out means covering the tank completely. I've only done 3 days total because whenever I do this, and I've done it about 3 times now, the tank heats up and after 3 days it usually gets to 86 degrees. My tank is usually 80-82!

 

- Very wet skimming. I'm pouring out skimmate twice a day.

 

- No water changes for the past 2 months until yesterday to raise nitrates. Also turned off a reactor full of Seachem Matrix, removed carbon and Seachem Purigen to make the water extra dirty. Fed slighly more than usual. Stopped carbon dosing (vinegar).

 

- Severely reduced photoperiod. Whites, Reds, and Greens are down to 0 per day. Blues, Violet, and UV are down from 12 to 8 hours per day.

 

- Fauna Marin Ultra Algae X: seems to have no effect whatsoever. I've never gone above the dosage instructions however.

 

- Magnesium to 1500 and pH stable at 8.4: no effect

 

- Started dosing H2O2 1ml/10gal

 

- Siphoned whatever I could, blew what I couldn't into the water column hoping it would get caught in the filter floss.

 

- Changed filter floss twice a day.

 

All these things seemed to have simply curbed their growth but would not eradicate them. One night I got especially desperate and thought I'd go big or go home. I basically nuked my tank. I poured a bunch of peroxide into a container and used my turkey baster to "spot feed" peroxide into areas that had dinos on it. Basically, the entire tank. When I was done, I would say I must have squirted about 8 ounces worth of peroxide. And then I sat there as my rocks bubbled. I saw dinos detaching and floating up to the surface. I scooped up whatever I could. I then realized, I did a 30% water change. I noticed all my corals were severely stressed and within an hour turned brown with no PE. In fact, barely any of them fluoresced anymore, it's as if the peroxide killed their zooxanthelle. I pretty much thought they were going to die but hey, perhaps my dinos were gone. Nope, they were back the next day. At that point, my main concern was getting my SPS back, the ones that would survive that is. Luckily they all did, not 1 STN or RTN (yet). And, as an added bonus, it seems that they are coloring up faster than original. My corals that I got brown and stayed brown for months have gotten it's florescence back much faster this time. None of them are back to 100% but they're getting there.

 

Because of that incident, I decided to do a water change yesterday and get all my system back up. I replaced a chemi-pure blue for carbon, i put the seachem matrix into a bag and put it into a low flow area, and into the reactor goes some rowaphos GFO. Lighting schedule is still the same.

 

Here are some pics and an obligatory FTS. Most LPS are still severaly stressed, my montis have not regained any real color, but my acros have bounced back nicely. As you can see, every piece is glued onto the rocks so taking the rocks out and spraying with peroxide really isn't an option. Plus these corals have been through enough, I'd hate to stress them more. I will continue to dose peroxide and Ultra Algae X at the very least to hinder growth.

 

 

 

 

Tank info: 34 gallon RSM 130d

Lights: AI Hydra52

Ammonia/NItrites/Nitrates/Phosphates: undetectable on Hanna checkers and API test kits

Salinity: 1.025

Alk: 10dkH

Mag: 1500

Calcium: 440

pH: 8.4

 

Things I have not tried but read about and is willing to try:

- triple dose of peroxide - 3ml/10gallons

- Algae Turf Scrubber that will fit in the back of my tank, I don't have a separate sump, it's an all-in-one

- if need be, I'll get a sump so I can grow macroalgae to outcompete the dinos

- UV sterilizer

- ozone

 

I'm pretty much open to whatever can/may help as I feel like I've run out of options.

[brandon429]

I was expecting a wrecked tank! you did well, it looks as if it never had the dinos. Im hesitant to recommend anything if the above pic is recent, not trying to short change the work you put into the post w documentation its very thorough. You can tell i have no probs typing giant replies lol but usually the tanks are thrashed upon first post

 

 

I always advocate removing physically loosely-attached invaders such as cyano and dinos where possible...in this case if we are planning to fight a resurgence of dinos the best I can advise is physical siphoning of those spots, and then a small underwater injection on that bare area to remove leftovers, where the underwater spot injection is sans water pumps and injected slowly to cover well

[PorkchopExpress]

No, I never let it get bad. I'm meticulous about everything in my tank, the first time I saw these things I thought it was cyano because it was slimy and I've fought cyano before. I started a chemiclean treatment. It didn't work so I started researching what it could be right away. During that time I turkey baster blasted it whenever I saw it attached to anything until I found out it was dinos at which point I started all the other various treatments. I siphon what I can out multiple times a day when I can but it's just not going away. It doesn't get worse but it doesn't get better. My hope is to starve it using the GFO, reduced photoperiod, reduced feeding, and siphoning them out. I will outlast them if this is what has to be done. I've upped the dosage of H2O2 to 2ml/10mg last night and this morning. Perhaps that may help a bit. I was also considering the ATS. A wreched tank just isn't an option - I've fought cirolanid isopods, gorilla crabs, flatworms, briopsis, cyano, and many other various pests and algaes and I won't let this one beat me.

[brandon429]

Well Ill tell you this. the only reason any peroxide thread exists for wrecked tanks is not doing exactly what you did. it isnt about peroxide, thats just a fun catch for lots of allowed build ups...its about simple exclusion first, before peroxide. The elbow grease it takes to fight what you are fighting. Try to find this occurring very often...the vast majority is posting to us what has been allowed to build up for retro act

 

 

Yours is poster child for what a prevented invasion should look like, then if we're smooth in prediction you (over the course of a month) work a lot less to attain this blissful state shown above. Dang, ive no home run to offer here only a wow job to you for simply disallowing something that had the worst potential. your pic above I was like totm material after those frags grow in, wheres the dinos heh its perfect. even at the tiny detail level

[PorkchopExpress]

Ok thanks. So you think that manual removal, which I have been doing, will eventually completely get rid of them? Do dinos just "run it's course" or do they continue to multiply as long as they have light and/or nutrients in which to feed on? Because I've read horror stories of some people fighting them for years and never actually winning the battle.

[brandon429]

I usually never get to see them that clean...if you are doing acceptable spot removals I say hold course as is and allow for some coral mass to rebuild, good feeding and good water changes pack those zoox back in and color em up, but as soon as the work for target removal starts to show signs maybe id step up. I sure hate to go all out and push the corals further unless its really indicated

 

this wont be a waste of resource though, im about to link up the biggest single dino thread I know from rc. many many big thousand dollar tanks showing what they did and what worked. peroxide was big with it, salinity drops and lights out too. I think you are going to agree you are doing all you can, so this discussion here becomes more of a watch and see since things are in line

 

Ill find the big thread and post back sec

[brandon429]

http://test.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2307000&page=2

 

 

he has high res pics of fishes cross vectoring dinos on their slime coats which is amazing, literally anything you xfer can have em

[PorkchopExpress]

Thanks. I did read through that thread already in the past. From what i remember, he (DNA) never truly got rid of his dino issue. I think he would get close, like remove 99% of it then they would come back, sometimes stronger than before. That isn't reassuring. What this basically means is that I can never really go on vacation or leave the house for a few days or risk these things completely taking over the tank. I keep them at bay with the peroxide and constant siphoning at the end of my photoperiod. Without that with the speed in which they reproduce, I feel my tank would be destroyed in a week.