Home Office Shallow Reef

[PJPS]

@Aqua Splendor is this normal?  I didn’t mean to bring disrespect on the People’s Republic, just expressed a (what in my mind is pretty minor) criticism.

[metrokat]

15 hours ago, mitten_reef said:

Well the keyword here is “many years”, and I still haven’t seen a prime example of a grown-in successful reef tank from all the advices given.  And I’ve been lurking and/or participating on here for at least 10 years now.  
 

not saying that the advices aren’t any good, cuz they are in most cases. they just aren’t matching the actual tank that I last saw.  
 

I really wish that more ppl that like giving advices will at least keep an up-to-date tank journal so other folks can actually interact with them on their journals as well.  That’s how I learned, participating in the journal conversations from the likes of@markalot, @metrokat, @HarryPotter and a few others that I can’t think of right now. 

 

Hey there! I'm always surprised and excited to get tagged - it sends me a notification and I get to jump on here and explore - so thanks.

 

Currently filling a new build. Red Sea Reefer 425XL G2. It's my largest system yet although in terms of dimension it is about the same as my established running tank. 

 

The currently running tank is coming up on 5 years soon. I wanted to move it to this space but decided to get a new tank instead. Hehehe.

 

Established tank is battling algae, it's had very high nutrient, installed a scrubber which didn't remove the algae from the display and eventually bottomed out my nutrients. Always something. Love this chalice.

 

I'm also running a nano for this little guy - a White cap Goby and his shrimp sidekick. It's a fluval 13 but I'm gong to get him a deskmate which is way smaller and perfect for this fish.

 

Besides that download this app that a high school teacher created to click pictures of your tank without filters.

 

 

[geekreef_05]

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

This is an odd combination.  Especially for how new the tank is – are you doing all of them??  

 

Kalk and soda ash shouldn't generally be necessary and kinda jump out of your list as potential problems.  

For most of my reefing history, ive been a 2-part doser.

 

Last 2 years, i switched to all-4-reef.

 

In this case, the alk products were an attempt to increase alk and pH. 

 

Currently nothing is being dosed except all for reef. 

 

Note that i use two independent test kits to verify the seneye pH and alk test. Test results are accurate. 

 

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

 

High pH is associated with problems like abiotic precipitation.  High pH is really unfriendly to a supersaturated solution like seawater.  

 

There is no downside to ordinary "low pH".

 

Did you have this from your old system?  Is this how you are measuring pH now?  

 

If it was different, how were you measuring pH before on your old system/old house?

 

In general there shouldn't be any reason to keep target numbers this high.  There are definitely risks though.

 

If there was an idea behind it (vs that's the numbers your salt mix gave you), let us know.

 

These numbers are pretty normal – practically ideal.  Even pH.

I respectfully disagree. Ideal for which corals? 

 

In my experience torches do better at an Mg of 1500. Most other corals better with calc at 450-500. 

 

Coral will grow at 400 no problem, im not disputing that. But i can do better with minimal efforts. 

 

 

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You can't put more carbonates in the water by changing pH.   Don't forget the carbonates are all we (or the corals) care about.  

 

pH and alk test results are just indicators we use to get an idea about this.  pH 7.8 is solidly within normal range.

This is a good discussion point. And i would challenge it.

 

Normal for what? Certainly not for corals natural environment. 

 

Normal for home aquarium. Sure. That said, generally speaking home aquariums have a terrible record of killing corals. Why? Cause often we are keeping the animals alive at the extreme end of their comfort level.

 

 

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Something else to recall is that we didn't always know that the chemistry of coral skeleton formation isn't directly linked to the chemistry of the water around them.  Corals control that chemistry biologically, independent from the water....unlinked from the water's pH.

True for every animal on the planet. Its important not to ramble if your responses are lengthy.

 

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

With so few corals/coralline algae, and pH as high as it was, that was probably precipitation on all the sufaces in the tank....espeically where there is a heat gradient, such as onto heaters and inside pumps.

 

...as I was saying.

Its funny that this is listed as a major problem. I found that one time i hit 15 dKH and there was precipitation. But ive been to 15 other times and nothing. 

 

Now im at a steady 14 with no precip problems. 

 

Precipitation is not a given from high dkh. Requires other contributing factors. 

 

Probably best not to broadcast this as a "warning" until more is really known. Cause from the say 3 times i was at 15 dkh only once did precip form. 

 

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

You hit the nail on the head.....there's a good reason for most rules of thumb in this hobby.

 

I'm not sure I'd buy into the counterpoints you brought up against what you yourself posted here.  I would question the sources where that info came from.  👍

 

At low densities, phyto (aka green water) blooms look grey like this too.  Just FYI.

 

Are you monitoring ammonia?   Guessing that's probably an ammonia release (ammonium sulphate or similar?) from the UV running and killing all those cells.

Yes, i am actively monitoring both NH3 and NH4 with the seneye. No change during this bacteria bloom. 

 

 

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

As long as your tank has good water circulation and aeration, pH is going to take on the character of the air in the room.  This keeps CO2 from building up and keeps O2 moderated.   In general, good water movement and aeration prevents big pH swings.

 

So focus on what changes the room's air....

 

Whether there is HVAC and how often it runs will make a big difference to the room's air quality.

 

Yes, agree. I have previously stated this in the thread as well. 

 

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Having open windows can make a difference if the outside air is significantly different.  (Old houses are poorly insulated.   New hoses are very well sealed.)

As stated earlier in this thread i tested the open windows thing and nothing happened. No affect on pH or 02 values. Im sure it may work for other situations, but nada on mine. 

 

21 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Plumbing the air-intake of your skimmer to the outside can make a similar difference IF the outside air is significantly different.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with that range.  👍 IMO, let it be.

 

I'm curious to see how the air quality meter works out – it's something I've considered purchasing before.   Which did you order?

Me too. I ordered a cheap one off amazon. 

 

pengxian Air Quality Monitor, 3-In-1 Combo CO2 Moisture Meter Pollution Meter, Sensor, Tester; Detect & Test Indoor Pollution, Carbon Dioxide Detector Temperature and Humidity Indoor https://a.co/d/cjHvLSd

 

 

I appreciate the disscussion. 

 

 

[banasophia]

Nice to see you here, @metrokat. Congrats on the new tank setup… love it, and it looks like your cat is enjoying her new boxes. Are you planning to keep the back glass clear like that, or will you be adding some kind of background?
 

Interesting about the algae scrubber in your other tank, thanks for sharing your experience. 

I’ll check out that app… we just started talking about the impact of AI in pjps’s tank thread… pretty hard to believe what AI is able to do now. 

 

[metrokat]

16 minutes ago, banasophia said:

Nice to see you here, @metrokat. Congrats on the new tank setup… love it, and it looks like your cat is enjoying her new boxes. Are you planning to keep the back glass clear like that, or will you be adding some kind of background?
 

Interesting about the algae scrubber in your other tank, thanks for sharing your experience. 

I’ll check out that app… we just started talking about the impact of AI in pjps’s tank thread… pretty hard to believe what AI is able to do now. 

 

Hey there. The tank comes with a black background film. I've always removed it in favor of frosted film, since.... let's see.... Nov 2014! Click on "Kat's Nook" in my signature.

[banasophia]

Okay, I’ve only tried it once so far, but that app seems pretty awesome and well worth the $0.99, thanks so much for the tip @metrokat!

 

Heres the first pic I took:

 

Compared to just using my regular iPad camera:

 

What I like about this app from just my first try, as opposed to some of the other aquarium camera apps I’ve tried, is the ease of adjusting the image so it really produces a photo that is true to what you see through your naked eye… which I always think is the goal, but hard to achieve with some of the clip ons and other apps. 
 

I will test it out further and update my comments here if I change my mind about it, but I’m very impressed so far… thanks again!

[banasophia]

Sorry we’ve hijacked your thread @geekreef_05, but you’ve sure generated some good discussion here, so thank you. 😊🤗

[geekreef_05]

On 2/11/2023 at 11:36 PM, PJPS said:

Alk at 14 and your pH hits 7.6?  This is out of my comfort level, @mcarroll may have some good knowledge here.

 

The skimmer likely won't add much, I have a nano skimmer drawing through 2LF CDX (the most effective scrubbing media I've found) and get an imperceptable 0.05 bump.  Recirculating, maybe 0.08.  (I bought the fishofhex skimmer cup adapter, the whole thing, 0.08 pH boost) 

 

This is key info. Great info in fact. 

Since ive already order the skimmer and scrubber media, i'll put it to use. If i get a + 0.1 bump in pH , id be happy. But anything less will be frustrating. 

 

Im curious as to what it really does for 02 exchange as well. We're gonna find out. 

 

On 2/11/2023 at 11:36 PM, PJPS said:

I drip 250ml kalk, overnight, just to keep it over 7.7 overnight.  250ml is my daily max, any more and my corals get grumpy/start to peel.  It adds .2 dkh or less.  My tank drops 1dkh/day.  So the kalk overnight is just to goose my pH a bit, A BIT.  If you do ACI Kalk dosing, your daily evaporation in saturated kalk over night, you'll most likely lose coral in a nano. I know I did, when I was all obsessed with pH.  I can't explain the specifics, but @mcarroll might know.

 

 

 

Which corals are eating up that alk for you? Besides sps, im curious if folks have lps or sps corals that are alk hungry. 

3 hours ago, banasophia said:

Sorry we’ve hijacked your thread @geekreef_05, but you’ve sure generated some good discussion here, so thank you. 😊🤗

As long as we're all sharing, caring and learning. No biggie.

[PJPS]

1) I've found it does little for that too, if it did, that scrubbed air WOULD change the pH.  You might get 0.1, I sincerely hope you do :).

 

2) it's like 90%, well maybe %75 the SPS.  I started with just bulk SPS.  Contacted an aquaculture place, said "I have $300 and want the most SPS mass you can give me for it."  They were happy to oblige 🙂

 

[geekreef_05]

On 2/12/2023 at 3:59 PM, banasophia said:

BRS has put out quite a bit of info recently suggesting that running our tanks at a pH closer to the average ocean pH of 8.3 can lead to healthier and faster growing corals, so I think we will see more people starting to monitor their pH more closely and taking action to increase it. My tanks run at 7.8, not sure I will make any changes, but considering it. 
 

https://www.bulkreefsupply.com/content/post/mastering-reef-tank-ph?utm_term=&utm_campaign=EL+|+ACQ_Smart_Shopping+|+ROAS+|+All+Products&utm_source=adwords&utm_medium=ppc&hsa_acc=7373341438&hsa_cam=17740353356&hsa_grp=&hsa_ad=&hsa_src=x&hsa_tgt=&hsa_kw=&hsa_mt=&hsa_net=adwords&hsa_ver=3&gclid=CjwKCAiAuaKfBhBtEiwAht6H79vuCjIWw9Vbd32ODBuFURSzqE0tIPLBJeKdZ3QMGQ8VEE6a_LqSdBoCrmQQAvD_BwE

 

This is a good discussion topic. I have seen the work from BRS as well as folks like Tidal Gardens running at 8.3 to 8.5 pH. And the results speak for itself. 

 

Again, yes coral will survive at 7.7, but its the edge of their threshold. Its not an environment they can thrive in. 

 

There's a difference. 

 

Think about dog owners. Some crate their dogs often. Have them on leash always. I was the dog owner that never used a crate and put excessive time into training so i use the leash only when society required me to. 

 

Both dog owners will claim they take excellent care of the dog. Crate owners claim the dogs love it. 

 

But there is a difference. A big difference. Keeping coral as pets is similar. We can all be like "coral seems fine", but what are we comparing that to? What defines excellent care? 

 

Another example was the first time i saw tangs in the wild. Other people here probably snorkel or dive. After that swim i didnt ever want to trap a fish like that in a tiny aquarium (tangs for 1k gallon tanks and up in my opinion). 

 

Surviving and thriving.

Big difference.

 

pH is probably a key component that - in the past reefers have readily paid less attention to. 

 

/rant

 

Its a good discussion topic.

 

[geekreef_05]

14 minutes ago, PJPS said:

1) I've found it does little for that too, if it did, that scrubbed air WOULD change the pH.  You might get 0.1, I sincerely hope you do :).

 

2) it's like 90%, well maybe %75 the SPS.  I started with just bulk SPS.  Contacted an aquaculture place, said "I have $300 and want the most SPS mass you can give me for it."  They were happy to oblige 🙂

 

Haha. Thats hilarious

 

 

Also I think sps will be part of this solution. If i can soak up 1 or 2 dkh a day i can dose soda ash, pushing my pH to at least 8.0 

 

Once the skimmer is delivered, installed and settled, i'll be thinking about an sps order. 

[PJPS]

OK, I take my animal husbandry pretty seriously, so if my frustration seeps through, I really am just generally frustrated, not at anyone or any beloved stores.

 

Do you think it''s easier or harder on the fish (wha have brains etc) if you're constantly spiking and dropping pH, or a steady but lower pH.

 

You're not wrong, you're just focussed on the wrong living inhabitant.  Focus on the sentient one first.

 

Also, you name an aquaculture facility and massive tanks, we have puddles by comparison.  Are you a bad dog owner if you don't own a ranch and let them run free, instead torturing them by only not crating them in a cramped home??

 

/rant 😉

 

No  hard feelings 🙂

[geekreef_05]

Hehe. 

 

Id say step back for a minute and consider. Its hard because we all have predispositions and notions. 

 

Maybe you crate your dog and that hit a divisive chord. It was suppose to be an example of that. I did not mean it personally.

 

Crating a dog is divisve! I respect your choice and your conversation on it.

 

In some countries like Finland, its illegal. So id say there is another side to that story. Im not the only one. And i encourage everyone to explore both sides fully. And hopefully you can agree with neither, cause you've made your own decisions.

 

I had a dog at one time with a docked tail. Not my perfereed choice. I dont want to support that practice, but there were circumstances. 

 

Like cats and declawing. Cruel? Not? Whole other topic. Im not a cat person. Lets not go there. 

 

All that said, I respect the passion you have for your animals and the husbandry that you deliver. 

 

That said, remember i also said that tangs belong in 1k gallons or more. I hope all the tang people dont take it personally! But thats my solid opinion formed from reefing and real life observations over time. And... I had tangs in a 70 gallon and then they moved to a 120 gallon, which I sold mid university...that was 20 years ago. 

 

We evolve as people, as a society. 

 

So let's stay on topic. Corals and pH.

 

For the record i dont yo yo my tank parameters. Go back and actually see how far i pushed. Not far. Not fast. NR is my testing notepad to self when i do stuff like that. 

 

Im running on the high end of parameters, purposely. But its pretty solid.  

 

Good discussion. No hard feelings dude. 

[PJPS]

6 minutes ago, geekreef_05 said:

Hehe. 

 

Id say step back for a minute and consider. Its hard because we all have predispositions and notions. 

 

Maybe you crate your dog and that hit a divisive chord. It was suppose to be an example of that. I did not mean it personally.

 

Crating a dog is divisve! I respect your choice and your conversation on it.

 

In some countries like Finland, its illegal. So id say there is another side to that story. Im not the only one. And i encourage everyone to explore both sides fully. And hopefully you can agree with neither, cause you've made your own decisions.

 

I had a dog at one time with a docked tail. Not my perfereed choice. I dont want to support that practice, but there were circumstances. 

 

Like cats and declawing. Cruel? Not? Whole other topic. Im not a cat person. Lets not go there. 

 

All that said, I respect the passion you have for your animals and the husbandry that you deliver. 

 

That said, remember i also said that tangs belong in 1k gallons or more. I hope all the tang people dont take it personally! But thats my solid opinion formed from reefing and real life observations over time. And... I had tangs in a 70 gallon and then they moved to a 120 gallon, which I sold mid university...that was 20 years ago. 

 

We evolve as people, as a society. 

 

So let's stay on topic. Corals and pH.

 

For the record i dont yo yo my tank parameters. Go back and actually see how far i pushed. Not far. Not fast. NR is my testing notepad to self when i do stuff like that. 

 

Im running on the high end of parameters, purposely. But its pretty solid.  

 

Good discussion. No hard feelings dude. 

I have a Maine coon and find declawing cats Terrible.

 

Have you ever watched a cat or a dog? They curl up in corners a lot with three sides protected.  My maine coon often just hangs out in his carrier that is just left around.

 

May I suggest the writings of temple Grandin?  And she has a uniquely autistic connection with animal behaviour and has revolutionized ranching.

so I guess I would debate you on all of your points.

 

 

 

[geekreef_05]

Im not debating you on dog crating, on my journal thread.

 

I was just using it as an example of divisive Pet husbandry.

 

An example that your taking too personally. Gotta let it go dude. 

 

I love dogs. Im sure your Maine coon is awesome, ones ive met are super mellow dogs. 

[PJPS]

I really am not taking it all too seriously, but you’re the one who introduced other animals. I’m just making my point the same using the same comparison you, beyond that I don’t hugely care what you do TBH 😊

 

I don’t mean that dismissively, I just mean it factually. I don’t know what it is about what I’m saying, but the fact that I don’t hedge everything six different ways gets interpreted as going crazy. I assure you, it’s the result of my being disabled, and having to voice type everything. 😊

 

 

 

[geekreef_05]

Reef Update

 

The Good

- uv sterilizer is still in there. 

- clarity is phenomenal. 

 

The Bad:

1) The SULFUR rotten egg smell has decreased, but its still powerful! Its uncomfortable to be in the room without cracking a window. Total ruins any enjoyable viewing or work at home experience.

 

2) Female clown didnt eat much today. Very werid. Normally a voracious eater. Didn't act normally either. Usually she is following my fingers around the surface. No visual signs of breathing and movement/fin problems. No skin blemishes. Not sure whats up with that. Maybe she is sick of the smell too. Ammonia is zero. 

 

3) purple/gold Indo torch looking rough. It has never looked in great health since i received it. Can tell from the photos.

 

Perhaps i dipped this coral with a coral rx mix that was too strong. It got a slightly higher concentration than the others.

 

Perhaps it was shipping or a pre existing problem.

 

I predict polyp bailout or brown jelly in 24hrs. 

 

 

 

The Ugly: 

- mild diatom outbreak today

- likely due to low levels of other bacteria 

- uv is probably curbing the effects as well

 

Plan: 

Tomorrow i'll do a 30% wc and swap out the carbon as well as finally remove the uv. 

 

Hopefully that helps the smell. I'll entice the fish with some brine shrimp tomorrow too

 

Usually im feeding pellets.

 

 

[PJPS]

Do we have any ideas where this sulfur smell is coming from, or it’s origin?  I kinda forget (sorry), but I’m happy to research it some 😊

 

for your torch, wherre is your mag?  I find wavy LPS love mag at 1400+

[geekreef_05]

Its bacterial die off.

 

Tank had a big bacterial bloom. It was cloudy. I installed a uv sterilizer. It cleared it up, but the die off caused a sulfur smell.

 

Its been over 48hrs since the uv went in. Tank is crystal clear now that the bacteria is dead. 

 

The SULFUR death smell gets less and less by the day, but i think a wc will help it out. 

[PJPS]

Heavy Sandbed vac and a bottle of pods to restart the sandbed is all I can offer as what I’d try.  I’ve never dealt with a bacterial die off like that TBH.  ✊🏻🐒

 

edit: since you’re 613 brethren, this is THE place for live goods in these parts.  Good quality, decent prices https://canadaaquamarine.ca/en.  I find this stuff to be on another level.

[geekreef_05]

I appreciate that you googled some info. However, just so its clear a UV sterilizer kills only water column based bacteria and viruses. 

 

If its on the rock or sand, the uv unit doesn't affect it. 

 

But thanks for the link, live pods are often useful. 

[PJPS]

5 hours ago, geekreef_05 said:

I appreciate that you googled some info. However, just so its clear a UV sterilizer kills only water column based bacteria and viruses. 

 

If its on the rock or sand, the uv unit doesn't affect it. 

 

But thanks for the link, live pods are often useful. 

I didn’t even google it.  I just figured the dead bacteria would accumulate in the sand after you zapped it out of the water column.  I’d want the sulfur smell gone if it’s that bad.  I assume you’re cleaning the skimmer and mechanical daily if the stench is that bad.

 

edit: I just remembered your skimmer is incoming.  It may disappoint on the pH front, but skimmers remove bacteria sized stuff really well.  It may well resolve the stink pretty quickly, and it’ll likely give your pH at least a tiny   boost.  But day to day actual skimming?  Meh at best - it’s still running on my tank.though, since I feed heavy and mildly carbon dose, and I’ll take .05 pH bump while sealed in every few day because…. Ottawa ✊🏻

[PJPS]

11 hours ago, geekreef_05 said:

I appreciate that you googled some info. However, just so its clear a UV sterilizer kills only water column based bacteria and viruses. 

 

If its on the rock or sand, the uv unit doesn't affect it. 

 

But thanks for the link, live pods are often useful. 

I’m not blindly in love with pods, my understanding of microfauna etc, predates that big youtube dry goods channel’s by years.  Our own @Aqua Splendor had videos on it in 2021.  but if I’m offering advice that’ll break your sand bed’s biology, I’m going to mention you need to restart it.  They aren’t a cure-all, but serve a usefull purpose on the food chain of a tank 😊

[geekreef_05]

8 minutes ago, PJPS said:

It’not blindly in love with pods, but if I’m offering advice that’ll break your sand bed’s biology, I’m going to mention you need to restart it.  They aren’t a cure-all, but serve a usefull purpose on the food chain of a tank 😊

I appreciate that your trying to help. That said, using a UV sterilizer does not mean a sandbed requires a restart. Alot of people use uv 24/7 with live sandbeds. 

 

Some bacteria live in the water column. Some on surface. Some do both. UV only kills whats in the water quality.

 

That said, pods are always a good call after a bacterial bloom. 

 

Reef Update: 

This morning the sulfur smell is still strong, but definitely declining. 

 

I popped a window open. Gonna prep for a water change. 

[PJPS]

8 minutes ago, geekreef_05 said:

I appreciate that your trying to help. That said, using a UV sterilizer does not mean a sandbed requires a restart. Alot of people use uv 24/7 with live sandbeds. 

 

Some bacteria live in the water column. Some on surface. Some do both. UV only kills whats in the water quality.

 

That said, pods are always a good call after a bacterial bloom. 

 

Reef Update: 

This morning the sulfur smell is still strong, but definitely declining. 

 

I popped a window open. Gonna prep for a water change. 

I totally get that UV kills bacterial blooms from the water column alone.  But once dead nothing is pulling it out, so it’ll settle somewhere. The sand and rock seem likely.  Floss/socks aren’t great bacteria catchers.

 

I’m not saying the UV or deadbacteria will disrupt the sandbed, but my original “suck it outta the sand” idea would, perhaps that’s the confusion 🤷🏻‍♂️