Royal Gramma - Stressed or Sick?

[Tamberav]

4 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

From everything I can find Prazipro shouldn’t kill anything other than worms and live rock shouldn’t alter the dose, but I’ll wait for @Humblefish’s opinion. I do have cycled media on hand if I need to set up my hospital tank but treating the tank would also make sure there are no flukes in the DT still. 

The freshwater dip gave relief for a bit for the spots on her skin but not the breathing, which lines up with Humble’s post that states that freshwater dips aren’t effective for flukes in the gills. 
 

It would take a week or more to get a microscope (as a disabled mom of 3 disabled kids going to a store in a pandemic isn’t an option, and mail here in Canada is so backed up even express shipping is taking over a week) and I can’t leave her struggling to breathe that long, nor can I keep doing continued dips. For physical reasons catching her isn’t something I can learn to do less stressfully. 

I use it in a conditioning tank that is basically a mini display with corals and all the regular reef tank life without major issues. Just make sure to have good flow for oxygen and do a water change before dosing it. Watch for a bacterial blooms and have carbon on hand.

 

I only run it for 24 hours then add carbon and retreat a week later (after another waterchange). Bacteria in a DT can break it down anyways so retreating seems a safer bet.

 

Things like mushroom and Xenia get mad for a day. It doesn't even harm my worms. Obviously no one can account for every living organism in your tank so I can't say it isn't without risk.

 

If you remove the fish to a hospital tank I believe you have to go fallow for 4 weeks? So keep that in mind if you go that route.

 

Be sure not to overdose and account for rock. I once dosed 3x the normal amount which I found kills soft corals and such (I had some resistant flukes). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[NaturallyKait]

18 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

I use it in a conditioning tank that is basically a mini display with corals and all the regular reef tank life without major issues. Just make sure to have good flow for oxygen and do a water change before dosing it. Watch for a bacterial blooms and have carbon on hand.

 

I only run it for 24 hours then add carbon and retreat a week later (after another waterchange). Bacteria in a DT can break it down anyways so retreating seems a safer bet.

 

Things like mushroom and Xenia get mad for a day. It doesn't even harm my worms. Obviously no one can account for every living organism in your tank so I can't say it isn't without risk.

 

If you remove the fish to a hospital tank I believe you have to go fallow for 4 weeks? So keep that in mind if you go that route.

 

Be sure not to overdose and account for rock. I once dosed 3x the normal amount which I found kills soft corals and such (I had some resistant flukes). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you! That’s exactly what I needed to hear. Thankfully I took note of how many gallons of water it took to fill the tank when I transferred from my old tank last month so I know what my actual volume is. I keep carbon on hand all the time anyway so that’s good to know. 

[Humblefish]

Prazipro can be used in a reef with minimal consequences. I would only be worried about acropora. Other SPS and anemones will sometimes bleach a little, but usually bounce back. Take carbon, GFO, etc. offline and also your skimmer because Prazi will cause it to overflow.

[NaturallyKait]

9 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

Prazipro can be used in a reef with minimal consequences. I would only be worried about acropora. Other SPS and anemones will sometimes bleach a little, but usually bounce back. Take carbon, GFO, etc. offline and also your skimmer because Prazi will cause it to overflow.

Perfect. I don’t have any SPS at all or anemones so I should be fine. I’ll pull my carbon but I don’t have a skimmer or any other media so sounds like I’ll be good to go. 

[mipster]

Sorry to hijack a bit but since we're on the topic of sick or stressed Royal Grammas, mine was acting weird this morning.  I added a tiny pair of clowns yesterday (less the half the length of the gramma and there has been no signs of aggression from the clowns) and this morning the Royal Gramma is acting very odd. There are no dots or specks, no abrasions or marks, she appears to be breathing heavily.

 

Ammonia - 0

 

Nitrite - 0

 

Nitrate - 10

 

pH - 8.2

 

Tank is a bit over 2 months old, cycled about a month ago, gramma added about a week ago, has been eating well, swimming in the open, looked great. Today I find her in a cave she was normally hanging out in then I see her swim out into the open and swim in fast circles on her side and now she is on her side on the sand breathing heavily I think.. I don't see her rubbing or anything like that. There are no inverts yet so no crabs or anything who can bug her.

 

 

[Tamberav]

1 hour ago, mipster said:

Sorry to hijack a bit but since we're on the topic of sick or stressed Royal Grammas, mine was acting weird this morning.  I added a tiny pair of clowns yesterday (less the half the length of the gramma and there has been no signs of aggression from the clowns) and this morning the Royal Gramma is acting very odd. There are no dots or specks, no abrasions or marks, she appears to be breathing heavily.

 

Ammonia - 0

 

Nitrite - 0

 

Nitrate - 10

 

pH - 8.2

 

Tank is a bit over 2 months old, cycled about a month ago, gramma added about a week ago, has been eating well, swimming in the open, looked great. Today I find her in a cave she was normally hanging out in then I see her swim out into the open and swim in fast circles on her side and now she is on her side on the sand breathing heavily I think.. I don't see her rubbing or anything like that. There are no inverts yet so no crabs or anything who can bug her.

 

 

 

Looks like a problem with swim bladder? Almost seemed like it was ready to float away.

[mipster]

13 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Looks like a problem with swim bladder

That's what someone on my local reef group said too.. Is there anything that can be done? She won't eat anymore...

[Tired]

Yeah, uncontrollable floating is a swim bladder issue. Do you have or can you get a hang-on breeder box to put it in? That, with plenty of things to hide/wedge under, might help it float less and feel more in control. Keep the water clean, make sure nothing bothers it, and that's about all you can do. 

 

The problem may resolve itself on its own. If not, depending on the stress level, you may have to consider euthanasia. Uncontrollable floating is pretty stressful for any given fish.

[Tamberav]

5 hours ago, mipster said:

That's what someone on my local reef group said too.. Is there anything that can be done? She won't eat anymore...

A QT tank with antibiotics and hope she absorbs enough in case it is an internal infection. There is also a video on how to vent a swim bladder using a needle but it's something I would only do as a last ditch effort and it is not for the faint of heart. 

 

 

 

 

[mipster]

21 minutes ago, Tired said:

Yeah, uncontrollable floating is a swim bladder issue. Do you have or can you get a hang-on breeder box to put it in? That, with plenty of things to hide/wedge under, might help it float less and feel more in control. Keep the water clean, make sure nothing bothers it, and that's about all you can do. 

I had caught her in a net and was letting her sit in there while I tried to target feed to see if I could get her in eat, she wouldn't. They I left her in the net for a bit so I could observe and all the sudden, she was perching right way up and darted out of the net and hid somewhere. I've looked in all the caves I can see and I have no clue where she is in there now. I'm not sure if I should just leave her be and monitor for an ammonia spike or if I should take the rock out and find her... I worry that is more stressful if she is just looking to recover herself... Maybe I should see where we're at tomorrow.. 

 

The problem with Canada is we can't get most medications. 

[Tamberav]

2 minutes ago, mipster said:

I had caught her in a net and was letting her sit in there while I tried to target feed to see if I could get her in eat, she wouldn't. They I left her in the net for a bit so I could observe and all the sudden, she was perching right way up and darted out of the net and hid somewhere. I've looked in all the caves I can see and I have no clue where she is in there now. I'm not sure if I should just leave her be and monitor for an ammonia spike or if I should take the rock out and find her... I worry that is more stressful if she is just looking to recover herself... Maybe I should see where we're at tomorrow.. 

 

The problem with Canada is we can't get most medications. 

ahh Canada... 

 

I have had a leopard wrasse who recovered from a swim bladder issue (still have her!). I did nothing for her but helped her wedge into the rock at night so she wouldn't get stuck to the overflow. She kept eating though and it eventually resolved itself. 

 

You shouldn't have ammonia spike if she dies if the tank is cycled and not like a 2g or something. 

 

I think epson salt helps which you can get if she pulls through long enough. 

[mipster]

3 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

You shouldn't have ammonia spike if she dies if the tank is cycled and not like a 2g or something. 

I was under the impression you would see a little blip but maybe that's only people with something like a syneye monitor that is constantly tracking it? I rememeber when I was reading about that monitor they talked about how it would help you know when live stock died etc. 

 

I just really wonder where she is. It's only maybe 11 gallons of water in there and I thought I could see in all the caves that are big enough lol Fish really are the best at playing hide and seek. 

[Tamberav]

8 minutes ago, mipster said:

I was under the impression you would see a little blip but maybe that's only people with something like a syneye monitor that is constantly tracking it? I rememeber when I was reading about that monitor they talked about how it would help you know when live stock died etc. 

 

I just really wonder where she is. It's only maybe 11 gallons of water in there and I thought I could see in all the caves that are big enough lol Fish really are the best at playing hide and seek. 

My royal gramma can hide like amazingly well... he once found his way into the middle of a rock wiggling through little holes in the rock. Whenever I upgrade tanks I almost never find him... he shows up later when he pops out of a crevice somewhere from the rock I transferred. 

[mipster]

1 minute ago, Tamberav said:

My royal gramma can hide like amazingly well...

I've had people tell me that their grammas remained fully hidden for over 3 months. What the heck are they eating?! I don't know if I can stand not knowing how she's doing 😕 

[Tamberav]

10 minutes ago, mipster said:

I've had people tell me that their grammas remained fully hidden for over 3 months. What the heck are they eating?! I don't know if I can stand not knowing how she's doing 😕 

My guess is worms and pods.... or food particles that get swept under the rock somewhere... they got some pretty big mouths to forage with. 

[NaturallyKait]

Yeah my gramma used to hide way too well.

 

This whole lack of meds in Canada is a serious frustration. I hate watching fish die because our hands are tied. 

[mipster]

2 minutes ago, NaturallyKait said:

Yeah my gramma used to hide way too well.

The hiding is new behaviour related to whatever it is that's going on with her.. I hope she pulls through. I think I'm going to leave her be for now to try to reduce stress.

[mcarroll]

9 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

Perfect. I don’t have any SPS at all or anemones so I should be fine.

You may elect to use it on your reef or not.  Ultimately you have to decide for yourself.

 

But PraziPro is not reef safe by any traditional definition of reef safe that I'm aware of.  

 

To be explicit:  

 

The traditional definition of reef safe includes many beneficial worms that would be likely targets of this med.  "Reef safe" has to because worms, among many other orders of life, because they are ALL integral to reef health.  Corals are only one of the orders that matter, not the only one...not by far....corals (when healthy) are 100% integrated with their environments.

 

Consider that even this med's proponents admit readily that it can cause anemones and corals to bleach.  That alone should be enough of a signal for you to use this as an absolute last resort IMO.  This malady can be adequately treated with something as "harmless" as a freshwater dip.  You are not at the last resort level, at least not from where I stand.  🤷‍♂️

 

Conflating "coral safe" with "reef safe" is un-wise and wrong-headed.  Doing that in order to prioritize treating a reef with this med instead of using less invasive treatments is quite dubious.

 

Construing anything that is known to cause bleaching as "coral safe" is really reaching as well as quite disconcerting.  

 

Both of those bad ideas at once is downright "skEEry".

 

Again, to be explicit: 

 

Things that cause bleaching are by definition reef un-safe.  Bleaching is an indication of direct stress to the coral animal.  Bleaching is the animals response to that stress.

 

Back to your fish....

 

IMO you know what caused this...the stress from the move...so there's no real mystery to go on worrying about.

 

Treat this fish for this outbreak with one or more freshwater dips until it's clear.  One or two per day at most.  (In my experience, one dip usually does the trick.  But use your own judgement.)  It might take a day or two for the funny skin to clear up, so take that into account.

 

Make sure all other stressors with the system that you have control over have also been eliminated.  

 

Make sure the best quality food that you have access to is available to them, frequently throughout the day.  (No more than they can eat in 5 minutes for each feeding tho.)

 

For what it's worth, here's a passage from "Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment.." (Noga) on the subject of flatworms.  (aka Monogeans aka "flukes")

 

Note all possible treatments are listed.  Note freshwater bath is on the list.

 

Emphasis mine, btw...these are the only real worries you should have...and hopefully issues like those have already been addressed.   And why there should be little or no ongoing concern over this IMO.  👍

Quote

Treatment

1. Formalin bath

2. Formalin prolonged immersion

3. Organophosphate bath (marine capsalids only)

4. Organophosphate prolonged immersion

5. Acetic acid bath (freshwater monogeneans only)

6. Freshwater bath (marine monogeneans only)

7. Saltwater bath (freshwater monogeneans only)

8. Potassium permanganate prolonged immersion

   (freshwater monogeneans only)

9. Copper prolonged immersion

10. Praziquantel bath (marine monogeneans only)

11. Praziquantel prolonged immersion

12. Mebendazole bath

13. Mebendazole prolonged immersion

14. Fenbendazole bath

15. Chloramine-T bath

16. Hydrogen peroxide bath

17. Praziquantel oral

COMMENTS

Epidemiology

Monogeneans are common parasites of the skin and gills of both marine and freshwater fish (Bychowsky 1957; Hoffman 1967; Rodhe 1984; Buchmann and Bresciani 2006). There are many different species (∼3,000), most of which have a narrow host range in nature (i.e., restricted to one species, genus, or family). However, this host specificity is often lost in aquaculture (Nigrelli 1940; Thoney and Hargis 1991).

Heavy monogenean infestations are usually indicators of poor sanitation and deteriorating water quality (e.g., overcrowding, high ammonia or nitrite, organic pollu- tion, or low oxygen). They can rapidly reproduce under such conditions. The doubling time for viviparous mono- geneans can be as little as 24 hours. Reproductive rate is also controlled by temperature, which, although not vari- able in a tropical aquarium (which should have a narrow range of temperature), is important in less controlled

environments (e.g., ponds, raceways). Monogeneans often bloom in spring.

 

[NaturallyKait]

Ok so an update @Humblefish

 

I did two rounds of the prazipro following your guide. The clownfish seemed to stop getting worse, I was hoping she would start to improve. 
 

Last night she seemed to start declining again. Today she’s acting just like the royal gramma, laying on the sand leaning against the rocks. I can’t get a good photo because she’s in a tunnel. The splotches seem a little worse, breathing is more laboured. 
 

Ideas on where to go from here? Try to catch her for another dip (Easier said than done, she’s still quick when she wants to be haha)? Another round of prazi? Something else? 
 

For information sake, current parameters: 

 

Ammonia: 0ppm (as per ammonia alert badge and confirmed with API test)

Nitrate: 10-20ppm (it’s somewhere in between on my test kit)

Phosphate: 0.1ppm 

Calcium: 400ppm

Alkalinity: 8.4 dkh

Magnesium: 1480ppm

Salinity: 35ppm

 

I do have a slight bacterial bloom going on right now as well. The YCG is still acting normally so far. None of my inverts seem bothered, corals are doing well. 
 

The best photo I could get of her now, it’s unfortunately blurry because of how far I had to zoom in and dark because she’s shaded in the tunnel. 

 

[Tamberav]

On 6/10/2020 at 9:44 PM, mcarroll said:

You may elect to use it on your reef or not.  Ultimately you have to decide for yourself.

 

But PraziPro is not reef safe by any traditional definition of reef safe that I'm aware of.  

 

To be explicit:  

 

The traditional definition of reef safe includes many beneficial worms that would be likely targets of this med.  "Reef safe" has to because worms, among many other orders of life, because they are ALL integral to reef health.  Corals are only one of the orders that matter, not the only one...not by far....corals (when healthy) are 100% integrated with their environments.

 

Consider that even this med's proponents admit readily that it can cause anemones and corals to bleach.  That alone should be enough of a signal for you to use this as an absolute last resort IMO.  This malady can be adequately treated with something as "harmless" as a freshwater dip.  You are not at the last resort level, at least not from where I stand.  🤷‍♂️

 

Conflating "coral safe" with "reef safe" is un-wise and wrong-headed.  Doing that in order to prioritize treating a reef with this med instead of using less invasive treatments is quite dubious.

 

Construing anything that is known to cause bleaching as "coral safe" is really reaching as well as quite disconcerting.  

 

Both of those bad ideas at once is downright "skEEry".

 

Again, to be explicit: 

 

Things that cause bleaching are by definition reef un-safe.  Bleaching is an indication of direct stress to the coral animal.  Bleaching is the animals response to that stress.

 

Back to your fish....

 

IMO you know what caused this...the stress from the move...so there's no real mystery to go on worrying about.

 

Treat this fish for this outbreak with one or more freshwater dips until it's clear.  One or two per day at most.  (In my experience, one dip usually does the trick.  But use your own judgement.)  It might take a day or two for the funny skin to clear up, so take that into account.

 

Make sure all other stressors with the system that you have control over have also been eliminated.  

 

Make sure the best quality food that you have access to is available to them, frequently throughout the day.  (No more than they can eat in 5 minutes for each feeding tho.)

 

For what it's worth, here's a passage from "Fish Disease: Diagnosis and Treatment.." (Noga) on the subject of flatworms.  (aka Monogeans aka "flukes")

 

Note all possible treatments are listed.  Note freshwater bath is on the list.

 

Emphasis mine, btw...these are the only real worries you should have...and hopefully issues like those have already been addressed.   And why there should be little or no ongoing concern over this IMO.  👍

 

 

Prazipro doesn't seem to harm any of my spaghetti worms/feather dusters/bristle worms/starfish and so on. I have prazi my conditioning tank many times which is a reef...and they remain in almost plague like proportions due to heavy feeding that tank receives. 

 

In theory it should harm these... but many report no losses at all. 

 

 

[Humblefish]

@NaturallyKait You might be dealing with prazi resistant flukes. However, I would feel more comfortable suggesting an alternative treatment if you could confirm flukes are still present via a 5 min FW dip: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/401919-freshwater-dip-fish-treatment-information/

[NaturallyKait]

7 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

@NaturallyKait You might be dealing with prazi resistant flukes. However, I would feel more comfortable suggesting an alternative treatment if you could confirm flukes are still present via a 5 min FW dip: https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/401919-freshwater-dip-fish-treatment-information/

Ok, I’ll do another dip and let you know. Probably tomorrow at this rate, as it’s so late where I am. 

[mcarroll]

12 hours ago, Tamberav said:

 

Prazipro doesn't seem to harm any of my spaghetti worms/feather dusters/bristle worms/starfish and so on. I have prazi my conditioning tank many times which is a reef...and they remain in almost plague like proportions due to heavy feeding that tank receives. 

 

In theory it should harm these... but many report no losses at all. 

Seems like that might have you worrying about efficacy of the drug or wondering about your actual dosage level then IMO.  

 

Might not be what it says on the package...or not the potency...etc.  Even if it was X when it went in the package, it may have lost potency since being opened.  (Etc)

 

Whatever is going on in these tanks you're talking about (which would be interesting to actually know), the drug (as in the chemical) is not considered safe for many reef organisms, not even by the company promoting it...that fact is true.  👍  You know the maker would claim it if they felt like they reasonably (safely) could!

 

For a comparison, I've seen inverts survive lethal levels of copper multiple times...copper levels verified by a Hach meter over the course of a whole Ich treatment...but I'm not going to start claiming that copper is any kind of "reef safe".  😉

[Tamberav]

6 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Seems like that might have you worrying about efficacy of the drug or wondering about your actual dosage level then IMO.  

 

Might not be what it says on the package...or not the potency...etc.  Even if it was X when it went in the package, it may have lost potency since being opened.  (Etc)

 

Whatever is going on in these tanks you're talking about (which would be interesting to actually know), the drug (as in the chemical) is not considered safe for many reef organisms, not even by the company promoting it...that fact is true.  👍  You know the maker would claim it if they felt like they reasonably (safely) could!

 

For a comparison, I've seen inverts survive lethal levels of copper multiple times...copper levels verified by a Hach meter over the course of a whole Ich treatment...but I'm not going to start claiming that copper is any kind of "reef safe".  😉

Well they survive...every time... probably can't say that about copper.

 

Something to note is prazi does not kill flukes right out...it just makes them spasm and fall off...and if they can't find a host after so many hours...they die. Well you can't find a host if you are laying on the bottom spasming. 

 

Because of this I just run prazi 24 hours these days. If prazi doesn't outright kill flukes there is no reason to think it would outright kill worms. Maybe they just get the jitters and go into hiding and recover when the med is removed. 

 

The biggest threat imo...from prazi in a reef is oxygen levels and bacterial blooms. 

 

 

[NaturallyKait]

Probably won’t get to dip this poor fish today. Doing my best, but I’ve lost power 5 times in the last 24 hours and I’m focused on trying to keep the tank going. Thank goodness for battery powered air pumps, the tank is fine but trying to get water warmed properly and aerated is probably a no go while also attending to the main tank.