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Royal Gramma - Stressed or Sick?


NaturallyKait

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NaturallyKait
19 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

Maybe give him a little more time to adjust to his new surroundings. When was the last time he ate?

Unless he’s eating when I’m not looking it’s been a little over a week, in the old tank. I have not witnessed him eat since the transfer. 
 

I agree the breathing is very concerning. My best guess is still stress. I’ve been keeping a close eye and haven’t witnessed any aggression but anything is possible. Nothing new has been added to the tank in a couple of months so if it’s disease he’s had it for a while and was previously handling it ok. 

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It is possible that he's sick, but it was dormant, and the stress of the move let it get a proper hold. 

 

Have you tried running some frozen food past him while the lights are out? 

 

Do you happen to have any pools of water outside? You might be able to find some mosquito larvae. They'll live awhile in saltwater, you can dump some in if you can find any. I wouldn't suggest them long-term for saltwater fish, in case anything about them is too different, but they're great treats. 

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NaturallyKait
Just now, Tired said:

It is possible that he's sick, but it was dormant, and the stress of the move let it get a proper hold. 

 

Have you tried running some frozen food past him while the lights are out? 

 

Do you happen to have any pools of water outside? You might be able to find some mosquito larvae. They'll live awhile in saltwater, you can dump some in if you can find any. I wouldn't suggest them long-term for saltwater fish, in case anything about them is too different, but they're great treats. 

The frozen food yes, I have tried that, making sure everyone else has eaten so they’re not hungry running at him to steal it. It’s still cold where I am though (it snowed this week) so no mosquitos out yet here. 

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NaturallyKait

As a side note, if live foods may help him eat I do have a bottle of copepods arriving on Monday, would he possibly eat those if he makes it until then? 

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He might try copepods, but they may be a little small. Amphipods would probably be better. 

 

Can you keep the lights off for a couple days? 

 

Do you have anything like a breeder box to put the clown in, to keep it away from the gramma in case it's the problem? 

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NaturallyKait
17 minutes ago, Tired said:

He might try copepods, but they may be a little small. Amphipods would probably be better. 

 

Can you keep the lights off for a couple days? 

 

Do you have anything like a breeder box to put the clown in, to keep it away from the gramma in case it's the problem? 

Yeah I could keep lights off, I don’t have any coral yet or anything that would be bothered by no lights. I don’t have a breeder box unfortunately. 

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NaturallyKait

Ok, so as an update the royal gramma must be eating something when I’m not looking because he’s still alive. He’s been hiding in a new hiding spot, no idea where. I was happy he had a spot and thought that would be the start of him turning a corner, but then yesterday he came out and he’s missing a piece of his tail. I couldn’t get a photo, but I was thinking something had to have bit him. 
 

Then today, suddenly I notice my clown goby has large white spots on his tail fin and on his side fins? I’m very confused. 
 

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Sorry for the poor photo quality, he’s camera shy and I had to snap it quick so I didn’t get a filter on anything on. It’s not a hole in his tail, it’s like a large discoloured white spot? You can’t see the other fin spot unfortunately. 

 

It doesn’t look like it’s raised, and it’s way too big to be ich right? The clownfish has no spots or anything. 

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NaturallyKait
48 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

Large white spots on the fins or spines is usually Lympho: 

 

See, I did think of lympho but I was thrown off because it’s not raised and it looks so different. It literally looks like if you were to accidentally drip bleach on a piece of fabric. Then the Royal Gramma’s tail too, I guess that’s probably unrelated? It’s just odd. His tail was fine the day before he finally disappeared into a hole to hide away, and then when he popped back out finally his tail is missing a piece. 

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NaturallyKait

I take it back. The clownfish ford gave a spot, either it just appeared or I couldn’t see it earlier. Just like the goby it’s only on a fin but it does look more like lympho. 
 

FAFC648C-AF87-45DB-B8F3-2B3269DA745F.thumb.jpeg.24bf4d0c34614cad73c9488a7b7cdbeb.jpeg

 

Not a great photo, but you get the idea. So I guess I won’t panic and just look into getting something to enrich their food. They currently eat LRS which I think is a good quality food so hopefully it goes into remission. 

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58 minutes ago, NaturallyKait said:

I take it back. The clownfish ford gave a spot, either it just appeared or I couldn’t see it earlier. Just like the goby it’s only on a fin but it does look more like lympho. 
 

FAFC648C-AF87-45DB-B8F3-2B3269DA745F.thumb.jpeg.24bf4d0c34614cad73c9488a7b7cdbeb.jpeg

 

Not a great photo, but you get the idea. So I guess I won’t panic and just look into getting something to enrich their food. They currently eat LRS which I think is a good quality food so hopefully it goes into remission. 

That's strange because LRS is a high quality good.  Could try thawing the LRS and adding selcon.

 

I am currently doing this to see if I can reverse my captive bred yellow tang's hlle.  

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NaturallyKait

Also, I finally figured out what’s been picking at the Royal Gramma and why he didn’t want to go into his crevice, yesterday I noticed a hermit crab crawl out of the crevice and last night that same hermit crab nipped a piece out of the fish’s tail. So I’m guessing that’s how his poor tail got all chewed up, and the hermit has been banished to someone else’s tank who has a sump he can live in. 

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Humblefish
1 hour ago, NaturallyKait said:

Also, I finally figured out what’s been picking at the Royal Gramma and why he didn’t want to go into his crevice, yesterday I noticed a hermit crab crawl out of the crevice and last night that same hermit crab nipped a piece out of the fish’s tail. So I’m guessing that’s how his poor tail got all chewed up, and the hermit has been banished to someone else’s tank who has a sump he can live in. 

The only good crab is one on your dinner plate. 😁

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NaturallyKait
1 hour ago, Humblefish said:

The only good crab is one on your dinner plate. 😁

I only had 3, but between this and the fact that now with covid it’s not easy to find snails in Canada so I can’t easily replace any they decide to eat for shells all of them are going to a new home where they’re not my problem anymore lol. Hopefully with them gone the gramma will recover. 

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22 hours ago, DreC80 said:

I am currently doing this to see if I can reverse my captive bred yellow tang's hlle. 

HLLE is strongly associated with continuous usage of activated carbon.  Any chance that's true in your situation?

 

Ever test the tank for voltage?

 

Good food will help recovery, but I think you have to nail down and remove the irritant as well.

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2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

HLLE is strongly associated with continuous usage of activated carbon.  Any chance that's true in your situation?

 

Ever test the tank for voltage?

 

Good food will help recovery, but I think you have to nail down and remove the irritant as well.

I don't use carbon at all...mostly because of the tang.  It is a captive bred yellow tang that I got from live aquaria and it came in very small with hlle already showing.  I did some searching on captive bred yellow tangs and hlle and there are a few folks out there experiencing the same issue.

 

I did recently test the tank for stray voltage and got a reading of .4 volts.  I have another tank that I run and it was also under .5 volts.  From the articles I've read it sounds like every tank will have a little bit of voltage present, but once you start hitting 20 volts or higher it should be concerning.  I'm well under one volt.

 

My tank is very SPS heavy and they are growing well.  PO4 is normally around .03 and nitrates are 20 to 25 ppm.  I'm assuming it's not a water quality issue.

 

I'm feeding sea veggies every day and rotate through the different LRS varieties.  I've also recently started applying selcon to the thawed food.

 

The yellow tang is the boss of the tank, so I don't think it's  a stress issue.  Hopefully I can help reverse it.

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Is it possible there's a skin irritant of some sort in the water, that doesn't bother the corals? Not water quality per se, but contamination. 

 

Or, I almost wonder if it's an allergic reaction to something. I don't know the physical workings of HLLE. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
NaturallyKait

Update and a question:

 

It’s been a little over a week since the bully hermit and his friends were removed. I was hoping the fish’s tail would heal and he’d recover. He was hiding in his crevice for the past week where I couldn’t see him, so I was hopeful he was finally less stressed. 
 

This morning I woke up and he was laying on top of the rocks. He’s alive but in even worse shape. His tail is looking rough and his breathing is laboured. I’m going to set up my QT today and try to catch him to at least get him somewhere I can keep better track of him. I can also treat him, if I have the appropriate meds already (can’t get more in Canada). He’s about 1.5” long, suppose my 5.5 gallon would suffice? Or should I take time to clean my old 10 gallon out? He’s not really swimming at all 😔

 

Picture from this morning, sorry it’s grainy but I had to zoom in. 
 

5F9C5EE9-2BC6-4CDB-8271-FC194E2AB381.thumb.jpeg.4140585a90d1f27a5a4a97c88f6cdad8.jpeg

 

And video, also zoomed. 
 

https://imgur.com/a/4qIdgwy

 

 

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I wouldn't add any meds or remove him. Just keep the water clean. It may be something is wrong that you can't help in any other way, in which case the best thing you can do is NOT stress him.

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NaturallyKait
2 minutes ago, Tired said:

I wouldn't add any meds or remove him. Just keep the water clean. It may be something is wrong that you can't help in any other way, in which case the best thing you can do is NOT stress him.

I guess what made me think moving him was the best bet was @Humblefish saying before that a methylene blue bath and into a hospital tank was a good idea. The methylene blue happens to be one of the things I already have. I just feel so awful for the poor guy, I don’t know why he’d still be stressed. He has his little hole, the hermit is gone, no one seems to be bugging him even now that he’s just laying there and would be an easy target. 

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Humblefish
2 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

I guess what made me think moving him was the best bet was @Humblefish saying before that a methylene blue bath and into a hospital tank was a good idea.

^^ This is what I would do. TBH, I think he's a goner at this point but a mild antibacterial (Methylene Blue) can only do some good. You could even just leave him in Methylene Blue overnight (using the 5.5 gallon tank) and see how he looks in the morning. Just only dose 1 teaspoon (5 ml) per 5 gallons. And be aware that the MB will permanently stain (but not damage) the silicone seams of your tank.

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NaturallyKait
4 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

^^ This is what I would do. TBH, I think he's a goner at this point but a mild antibacterial (Methylene Blue) can only do some good. You could even just leave him in Methylene Blue overnight (using the 5.5 gallon tank) and see how he looks in the morning. Just only dose 1 teaspoon (5 ml) per 5 gallons. And be aware that the MB will permanently stain (but not damage) the silicone seams of your tank.

Staining is fine. It’s just a tank, it’s replaceable. I also don’t have great hopes of him recovering at this point but it feels wrong to not at least try. Poor thing is suffering. 

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NaturallyKait

Well, he’s still alive this morning. More than I expected to be honest. His tail fin is pretty much completely gone. It wasn’t nearly this bad when he went into his little hiding space, so over the last week it must have been getting bad fast and I couldn’t see because he wasn’t coming out. 
 

I ended up sucking it up and pulling out the 10 gallon. That QT setup was destined for the trash anyway because the filter pump has gotten loud and the tank is scratched all to heck so instead of staining the new 5 gallon I’ll just pitch this when I’m done. The extra room seems to be a moot point, he barely moves anyway. How long can/should he stay in the methylene blue for? Anything else I should do for him, or just wait it out and see if he recovers? 

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Humblefish
9 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

I ended up sucking it up and pulling out the 10 gallon. That QT setup was destined for the trash anyway because the filter pump has gotten loud and the tank is scratched all to heck so instead of staining the new 5 gallon I’ll just pitch this when I’m done. The extra room seems to be a moot point, he barely moves anyway. How long can/should he stay in the methylene blue for? Anything else I should do for him, or just wait it out and see if he recovers? 

You can redose MB every 48 hours at a lower dosage - 1 teaspoon (5 ml) per 10 gallons - for up to 10 days. However, I would do a 25% water change before each treatment.

 

You could also try a mild antibiotic (e.g. Furan-2, Triple Sulfa, Sulfaplex), but those have harsher side effects than Methylene Blue so you probably wouldn't be doing him any favors. 😕

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