Royal Gramma - Stressed or Sick?

[mcarroll]

On 7/2/2020 at 12:16 PM, Tamberav said:

Well they survive...every time... probably can't say that about copper.

I'm not trying to promote any theories other than we paint with too broad a brush somethingsometimes, but yeah....repeated copperings of the same invert(s) in a few cases.

 

On 7/2/2020 at 12:16 PM, Tamberav said:

Something to note is prazi does not kill flukes right out...it just makes them spasm and fall off

Interesting.  Almost the same thing that exposure to freshwater does...although in a freshwater bath I think it also croaks them.

 

Quote

CONTRAINDICATIONS: There are no known contraindications to the use of Liquid PraziPro except for use in marine (saltwater) systems where flatworms of the Polycladida order are being cultured.

From: http://www.hikariusa.com/wp/solutions/healthaid/prazipro/

 

So their claim is that it's extremely specific to that type of worm, but more or less harmless outside of that.  Possible, but most things aren't so clearly cut.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel seems to jive on the way it works.  So it "paralyzes" doesn't kill.   Not trying to dispute their claims, but just on the surface that's a sketchy basis for saying "reef safe" since I really don't want "innocent microbial-bystanders" paralyzed any more than I want them killed.  As far as I can see from a quick scan, it doesn't look like it's really been tested much to know its side-effects on non-intended targets....which would be in keeping with our lack of complete understanding about how it works that's mentioned in the quote in Wikipedia article.

 

For other reasons it seems like a bad idea to keep a reef tank perpetually under this medication...for one thing, microbes are adapting to it and that's surely a bad thing not a good one.  It's a very toxic chemical, so that might be another.  Yet another would be residuals in the tank as the parent chemicals degrade over the weeks.   How are you controlling the dosage that can take account for that rate of breakdown?  (like the need for copper testing during copper treatment)

 

Per the directions it sounds like it would be hypothetically reasonable and appropriate to hit a tank with it at the same time "suspect" organisms were being introduced.

 

Quote

RECOMMENDATIONS: Use Liquid PraziPro any time unwanted parasites are noticed or introduction is probable.

From: http://www.hikariusa.com/wp/solutions/healthaid/prazipro/

 

Assuming the stuff works, shouldn't that make a "full time praziquantel tank" unnecessary?

Edited July 4, 2020 by mcarroll
undo ridiculous spellcheck...lol

[Tamberav]

25 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

I'm not trying to promote any theories other than we paint with too broad a brush something, but yeah....repeated copperings of the same invert(s) in a few cases.

 

Interesting.  Almost the same thing that exposure to freshwater does...although in a freshwater bath I think it also croaks them.

 

From: http://www.hikariusa.com/wp/solutions/healthaid/prazipro/

 

So their claim is that it's extremely specific to that type of worm, but more or less harmless outside of that.  Possible, but most things aren't so clearly cut.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praziquantel seems to jive on the way it works.  So it "paralyzes" doesn't kill.   Not trying to dispute their claims, but just on the surface that's a sketchy basis for saying "reef safe" since I really don't want "innocent microbial-bystanders" paralyzed any more than I want them killed.  As far as I can see from a quick scan, it doesn't look like it's really been tested much to know its side-effects on non-intended targets....which would be in keeping with our lack of complete understanding about how it works that's mentioned in the quote in Wikipedia article.

 

For other reasons it seems like a bad idea to keep a reef tank perpetually under this medication...for one thing, microbes are adapting to it and that's surely a bad thing not a good one.  It's a very toxic chemical, so that might be another.  Yet another would be residuals in the tank as the parent chemicals degrade over the weeks.   How are you controlling the dosage that can take account for that rate of breakdown?  (like the need for copper testing during copper treatment)

 

Per the directions it sounds like it would be hypothetically reasonable and appropriate to hit a tank with it at the same time "suspect" organisms were being introduced.

 

From: http://www.hikariusa.com/wp/solutions/healthaid/prazipro/

 

Assuming the stuff works, shouldn't that make a "full time praziquantel tank" unnecessary?

 

What do you mean full time? You can't run it full time in a reef tank or anywhere even if you wanted to because bacteria like to break it down and eat the stuff. So if you keep dosing the same tank over and over it becomes less effective as those bacteria will multiply and take advantage of the free meal.

 

I usually do a water change and run carbon to remove it, bacteria take care of the rest and when the skimmer goes back to normal I know I am good to go.

 

It does not seem to paralyze any visible worms or pods, they still come out to feed per normal. It seems to be one of the few (only?) meds that is fairly particular on what it effects. I am not claiming it does not effect any possible other microbe (we can't know that), but just that if you can't QT and your fish are clearly struggling with flukes, I care more about the fish then the whatever microbe it may or may not effect. It has no visible lasting effects that I have seen on my reef tank and I choose to use it as needed. This usually just means when I buy a new fish.

[mcarroll]

30 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

What do you mean full time?

I dunno why now, but I misread your post earlier as saying you used it full time (my paraphrasing).  

 

But on re-read (again) I dunno why I thought that.  I think I may have missed one of your mentions of carbon and thought at the time that you were running the carbon for 24 hours.  That would leave the first part sounding like you "just run praziquantel in that tank".  Regardless...sorry for the misread...clearly (now) not what's said in that post. 😉 🤷‍♂️

[NaturallyKait]

Sorry for disappearing. Power outages for a few days + medical condition flares had me out of commission until today.

 

As of yesterday though the clownfish is back to acting completely normally. She’s free swimming, sleeping in her corner by the overflow like she’s always done instead of on the sand in the tunnel, and back to her spunky self. Still worth the potential stress of the freshwater dip? 

[Humblefish]

2 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

As of yesterday though the clownfish is back to acting completely normally. She’s free swimming, sleeping in her corner by the overflow like she’s always done instead of on the sand in the tunnel, and back to her spunky self. Still worth the potential stress of the freshwater dip? 

She may have already build up immunity. I wouldn't bother unless symptoms resurface.

[NaturallyKait]

1 hour ago, Humblefish said:

She may have already build up immunity. I wouldn't bother unless symptoms resurface.

Ok, that’s what I was thinking so I’ll keep a close eye on her. 
 

Not that I plan to do it soon, but at some point we will want to add more fish to this tank. Is this something we should worry about with new fish? 

[Humblefish]

15 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

Is this something we should worry about with new fish? 

This is a concern because some fish are asymptomatic carriers (Typhoid Mary) which can still infect other fish. It might be worth acclimating a couple of black mollies to see if they become infected by any transmissible disease(s): https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/406744-black-molly-quarantine/

Edited July 7, 2020 by Humblefish

[NaturallyKait]

On 7/7/2020 at 1:31 PM, Humblefish said:

This is a concern because some fish are asymptomatic carriers (Typhoid Mary) which can still infect other fish. It might be worth acclimating a couple of black mollies to see if they become infected by any transmissible disease(s): https://www.nano-reef.com/forums/topic/406744-black-molly-quarantine/

Oh boy, I don’t know if I have the heart to potentially purposefully infect fish I know I can’t treat. I had considered a black molly as a fish for the tank anyway though. I’ll have to think about it. 

[Humblefish]

19 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

Oh boy, I don’t know if I have the heart to potentially purposefully infect fish I know I can’t treat. I had considered a black molly as a fish for the tank anyway though. I’ll have to think about it. 

FWIW; Black mollies can be treated the same as any other fish. In fact, just quickly converting them back to FW will fix most saltwater disease issues. The only thing is that molly can never be used as a "canary fish" ever again because its immune system has been introduced to saltwater pathogens.

[NaturallyKait]

16 hours ago, Humblefish said:

FWIW; Black mollies can be treated the same as any other fish. In fact, just quickly converting them back to FW will fix most saltwater disease issues. The only thing is that molly can never be used as a "canary fish" ever again because its immune system has been introduced to saltwater pathogens.

Yeah, my concern is about access to the meds to treat being an issue with the Canadian laws. I didn’t know that converting back to fresh though would probably fix it, that’s actually really helpful. I might see if my LFS plans to get any black mollies in anytime soon. If it worked out it could be helpful to have an algae grazing fish in the tank.