Royal Gramma - Stressed or Sick?

[NaturallyKait]

2 hours ago, Humblefish said:

You can redose MB every 48 hours at a lower dosage - 1 teaspoon (5 ml) per 10 gallons - for up to 10 days. However, I would do a 25% water change before each treatment.

 

You could also try a mild antibiotic (e.g. Furan-2, Triple Sulfa, Sulfaplex), but those have harsher side effects than Methylene Blue so you probably wouldn't be doing him any favors. 😕

Ok, redosing is easy. I don’t have access to antibiotics thanks to Canadians laws anyway, so this would be my only option. 
 

I was doing some reading on the MB and I have a question, if you don’t mind answering. The only concern I have right now is monitoring ammonia. Obviously ammonia tests aren’t going to be readable with the blue in the water, nor is an ammonia alert badge really. Which lead me to try to find if dosing Prime is safe with MB because I know with some medications you can’t, and I found mixed answers. I also read that the MB will mess up the bacteria that processes ammonia so I don’t want him to just get ammonia burn on top of this. I have seeded media in the filter, but from what I’ve read I shouldn’t count on it working well with the MB. Thoughts on using Prime during treatment?

 

I can’t thank you enough for how helpful you’ve been! 

[Humblefish]

2 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

I was doing some reading on the MB and I have a question, if you don’t mind answering. The only concern I have right now is monitoring ammonia. Obviously ammonia tests aren’t going to be readable with the blue in the water, nor is an ammonia alert badge really. Which lead me to try to find if dosing Prime is safe with MB because I know with some medications you can’t, and I found mixed answers. I also read that the MB will mess up the bacteria that processes ammonia so I don’t want him to just get ammonia burn on top of this. I have seeded media in the filter, but from what I’ve read I shouldn’t count on it working well with the MB. Thoughts on using Prime during treatment?

You can use Prime with MB. It's primarily Cupramine and Prazipro you want to avoid mixing with ammonia reducers.

[NaturallyKait]

Well as predicted the royal gramma died sometime overnight. Time for a conversation about death with the 5 year old I guess 😬

 

Should I be worried this was something that could hurt any new fish we add to the tank in the future? Neither the clownfish or clown goby show any signs of any illness anymore (the lympho spots are gone), and never had issues like the RG did. He just seemed to get stressed from the transfer, then the opportunistic hermit crab did his thing and the poor fish could never recover or at least that’s what it seems like. It’s unlikely to be a contagious thing right? 

[Humblefish]

7 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

Should I be worried this was something that could hurt any new fish we add to the tank in the future? Neither the clownfish or clown goby show any signs of any illness anymore (the lympho spots are gone), and never had issues like the RG did. He just seemed to get stressed from the transfer, then the opportunistic hermit crab did his thing and the poor fish could never recover or at least that’s what it seems like. It’s unlikely to be a contagious thing right? 

Even if it was a bacterial infection, those are not always contagious. Keep a close eye on all your other fish but I think you are probably OK.

[NaturallyKait]

Ok @Humblefish, I hate to bother you again but I don’t know if this is related or how worried I should be. 
 

If you remember back when the gramma was sick the clown goby had a largeish white spot on his tail, you thought lympho. Those had gone away but now it’s back, and the clownfish has one too but it’s not on her fins so now I’m worried this isn’t lympho after all? 
 

 

 

You can see there are two on the YCG’s tail, and then that white spot on the clownfish. It seems too big to be ich? 
 

There haven’t been any fish added to the tank. A few corals and a cleaner shrimp, but no new fish. 

[Tired]

Well, it's definitely not ich. Ich looks like salt sprinkled on the fish. I'm afraid I don't know what it is beyond that, but I would probably start setting up a QT/treatment tank. Do they show any symptoms? 

 

It's possible (though very rare) for corals and inverts to bring in fish diseases. More likely that it would come in on the water they were in. What can happen, though, is the disease lays dormant in fish resistant enough not to show symptoms, then pops up when they're stressed by something.

[NaturallyKait]

10 minutes ago, Tired said:

Well, it's definitely not ich. Ich looks like salt sprinkled on the fish. I'm afraid I don't know what it is beyond that, but I would probably start setting up a QT/treatment tank. Do they show any symptoms? 

 

It's possible (though very rare) for corals and inverts to bring in fish diseases. More likely that it would come in on the water they were in. What can happen, though, is the disease lays dormant in fish resistant enough not to show symptoms, then pops up when they're stressed by something.

Other than the spots no other symptoms. They’re acting totally normal. Eating fine, no flashing, breathing normally. I was making new RODI tonight anyway because I did a water change 2 days ago so I needed to replenish anyway so I’ll be able to quickly through together my hospital tank if I need to. 

[Humblefish]

16 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

Other than the spots no other symptoms. They’re acting totally normal. Eating fine, no flashing, breathing normally. I was making new RODI tonight anyway because I did a water change 2 days ago so I needed to replenish anyway so I’ll be able to quickly through together my hospital tank if I need to. 

It could be a lingering bacterial infection: 

 

 

I've seen a few gram-positive infections which sorta look like Lympho's white cottony growths. A week in erythromycin usually clears it up: https://apifishcare.com/product/e-m-erythromycin

 

Or Maracyn 1 also contains erythromycin.

 

 

[NaturallyKait]

2 hours ago, Humblefish said:

It could be a lingering bacterial infection: 

 

 

I've seen a few gram-positive infections which sorta look like Lympho's white cottony growths. A week in erythromycin usually clears it up: https://apifishcare.com/product/e-m-erythromycin

 

Or Maracyn 1 also contains erythromycin.

 

 

I can’t get those here in Canada with the new laws 😔

 

The spot on the clownfish is gone this morning. The ones on the clown goby almost seem to be in different places every time I look. They literally look like someone dropped bleach on fabric. They’re not raised, and they come and go. 

[NaturallyKait]

Ok clearly something is up here and I don’t know what to do. 
 

Just came in and found the clownfish laying on the sand breathing heavy just like the royal gramma was. She’s acting almost identical to how the royal gramma did, with the breathing and it really wanting to swim anywhere although she doesn’t seem quite as lethargic, at least yet. Has been eating ok when I feed. Her whole body seems to look almost like it’s covered in scrapes? I’m having a hard time trying to get a photo because of where she’s decided to lay. 
 

There’s nothing in this tank that could be picking on her. The clown goby is the only other fish. Other than that a cleaner shrimp (which she’s been actually constantly hanging around with and she wants it to clean her constantly. Related?) and some snails. No crabs, no aggressive fish. A few corals that she doesn’t go anywhere near. 
 

Bacterial still the most likely culprit? 

Not great photos but you can see she’s acting odd. She’s never laid on the sand before in the almost year we’ve had her. Don’t mind the algae, I’ve been dealing with an outbreak of it since before the tank swap even happened. 

 

[NaturallyKait]

Actually, could the clownfish have flukes? What looked like scrapes actually seem to just be light spots. I’m debating a freshwater dip. 

[Humblefish]

1 hour ago, NaturallyKait said:

Actually, could the clownfish have flukes? What looked like scrapes actually seem to just be light spots. I’m debating a freshwater dip. 

A 5 min FW dip would confirm flukes, if present: 

 

Also, look at some pics of Brook here: 

 

[NaturallyKait]

5 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

A 5 min FW dip would confirm flukes, if present: 

 

Also, look at some pics of Brook here: 

 

It doesn’t look anything like the brook pictures but I think it looks kind of similar to the flukes pictures. I’m going to do a dip and see what I see. If it is flukes it looks like based on your flukes post I can treat that with Prazipro, which I did manage to get some of that before it was off the shelves. 

[Melfy77]

Just read the whole thread, so sorry about your fish. I hate how we basically have NO fish medication. Garlic guard...yeah sure because we all know garlic cures everything, maybe even Covid-19!! Ridiculous!!! I had a major ich outbreak (or brook I can't remember ) but I litteraly watched all my fish die, and I couldn't do anything about it. No copper. And now no Prazipro. No methylene, nothing!! I remember feeling like a fish murderer 😞

 

[NaturallyKait]

23 minutes ago, Melfy77 said:

Just read the whole thread, so sorry about your fish. I hate how we basically have NO fish medication. Garlic guard...yeah sure because we all know garlic cures everything, maybe even Covid-19!! Ridiculous!!! I had a major ich outbreak (or brook I can't remember ) but I litteraly watched all my fish die, and I couldn't do anything about it. No copper. And now no Prazipro. No methylene, nothing!! I remember feeling like a fish murderer 😞

 

Yeah it really sucks. I feel lucky that I managed to snag the few meds I did before they all disappeared but there are still some obvious gaps in my little collection, and once they expire I’ll be out of luck. I’m kind of hoping this is flukes because at least I can treat that. If it’s bacterial I’m basically screwed because I have no real antibiotics. 

[Humblefish]

What was the result of the FW dip?

[NaturallyKait]

7 hours ago, Humblefish said:

What was the result of the FW dip?

Sorry it took me so long to get back. We had a human medical emergency last night and it took me all day to catch the fish. For sick fish she’s feisty. 
 

There was definitely some white stuff left in the dip afterward, but it’s tiny. I can’t tell if it’s flukes or not. Opinion? It seems so much smaller than the flukes photos I see elsewhere. 
 

 

 

She’s no worse today than yesterday. Acting the same, intermittently laying on the sand breathing heavily but she does start swimming around when you approach the tank and she does eat. 

[Humblefish]

I see a speck or two which could be flukes (see below for comparison). I hope your human medical emergency had a good ending.

 

[NaturallyKait]

1 minute ago, Humblefish said:

I see a speck or two which could be flukes (see below for comparison). I hope your human medical emergency had a good ending.

 

Thankfully all is good on the human front now, not a rare occurrence in our house. Just need to get the tank back to healthy and all will be well. 
 

The specks I see off of our clown seem smaller, that makes me question flukes. On the other hand, she’s got the swollen gills that I’ve seen mentioned sometimes and the spots on her look very similar to what I see in the flukes photos in your post (on the black and white clown in yours). Is there anything else that could cause similar looking spots? They’re definitely too big to be ich, and surely if it was brook or velvet she would have gone downhill much, much faster? 

[NaturallyKait]

@Humblefish I finally managed to get a halfway decent photo of how her body looks. Our power went out and apparently the battery air pump is fascinating enough to her for her to stay investigate long enough for me to grab a photo. 
 

Not perfectly clear by any means, but you can see what I mean that IMO it doesn’t look like ich? 
 

 

 

[Humblefish]

Those look like skin flukes to me.

[NaturallyKait]

33 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

Those look like skin flukes to me.

Ok, so that’s not awful news because I can treat that with the medications I have. 
 

Prazipro should work, correct? Following this it sounds like I can either medicate right in the tank or set up a hospital tank. I don’t have any feather dusters or anything, just the two fish, a cleaner shrimp, assorted snails and pods of course. So it sounds like medicating their DT should be ok? Corals may get cranky but not hurt overall? 

 

 

[Tired]

I would be more inclined to do a hospital tank. Better not to kill off the microorganisms that might dislike the medications. Plus, live rock can absorb medications and alter the amount you have in the water, and/or leach more of it out later. Try a hospital tank with some PVC pipes (or disposable plastic cups) for cover. You can put a big handful of sand and a few bits of rock rubble from your tank into the QT to more or less cycle it enough for a fish, though, as many meds can harm your biofilter, water testing is still important.

[mcarroll]

On 6/8/2020 at 9:49 PM, NaturallyKait said:

I can’t tell if it’s flukes or not.

I suggest a microscope.  

 

A $10 toy scope will do the trick...or in this case, even a "macro lens" kit for your phone camera.

 

You will get a lot better scope if you spend $50+...but better is not a requirement just to get some close-up pictures of your alleged flukes.  👍

 

I would not do anything more than a freshwater bath IMO.  

 

"Flukes" are very susceptible to fresh water.  If they are persistent in coming back on the fish, then you might have to treat the tank....not with QP though.  

 

But there's no reason (IMO, at least) to treat the fish itself with anything more than fresh water. 

 

A freshwater dip should give the fish immediate relief btw.

 

Try to get better at catching the fish so there's less stress involved in the fresh water dip(s).   Try using a net to "steer them" into a catch cup.  It's a pretty good trick as the catch cup is mostly invisible to them compared to the net.  I was able to do touch-less dips on fish this way at the store where I worked....as close to no-stress as you can get.

[NaturallyKait]

5 hours ago, Tired said:

I would be more inclined to do a hospital tank. Better not to kill off the microorganisms that might dislike the medications. Plus, live rock can absorb medications and alter the amount you have in the water, and/or leach more of it out later. Try a hospital tank with some PVC pipes (or disposable plastic cups) for cover. You can put a big handful of sand and a few bits of rock rubble from your tank into the QT to more or less cycle it enough for a fish, though, as many meds can harm your biofilter, water testing is still important.

From everything I can find Prazipro shouldn’t kill anything other than worms and live rock shouldn’t alter the dose, but I’ll wait for @Humblefish’s opinion. I do have cycled media on hand if I need to set up my hospital tank but treating the tank would also make sure there are no flukes in the DT still. 

2 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I suggest a microscope.  

 

A $10 toy scope will do the trick...or in this case, even a "macro lens" kit for your phone camera.

 

You will get a lot better scope if you spend $50+...but better is not a requirement just to get some close-up pictures of your alleged flukes.  👍

 

I would not do anything more than a freshwater bath IMO.  

 

"Flukes" are very susceptible to fresh water.  If they are persistent in coming back on the fish, then you might have to treat the tank....not with QP though.  

 

But there's no reason (IMO, at least) to treat the fish itself with anything more than fresh water. 

 

A freshwater dip should give the fish immediate relief btw.

 

Try to get better at catching the fish so there's less stress involved in the fresh water dip(s).   Try using a net to "steer them" into a catch cup.  It's a pretty good trick as the catch cup is mostly invisible to them compared to the net.  I was able to do touch-less dips on fish this way at the store where I worked....as close to no-stress as you can get.

The freshwater dip gave relief for a bit for the spots on her skin but not the breathing, which lines up with Humble’s post that states that freshwater dips aren’t effective for flukes in the gills. 
 

It would take a week or more to get a microscope (as a disabled mom of 3 disabled kids going to a store in a pandemic isn’t an option, and mail here in Canada is so backed up even express shipping is taking over a week) and I can’t leave her struggling to breathe that long, nor can I keep doing continued dips. For physical reasons catching her isn’t something I can learn to do less stressfully.