Royal Gramma - Stressed or Sick?

[NaturallyKait]

A week ago I upgraded tanks and transferred my livestock to the new tank. I transferred over all of my live rock from the old tank, no new rock. The only new thing in the new tank is the sand, which was dry sand that I rinsed well before using. I’ve had an ammonia alert badge on the tank since day one in case the transfer causes an ammonia spike, but it’s been all clear so far. 
 

I have three fish - a yellow clown goby, a clownfish and the royal gramma. These three fish have been in the old tank together since I got the royal gramma last year (November if I remember correctly) and they’ve always gotten along fine. Ever since the transfer the royal gramma has been acting off. It’s not eating, staying at the bottom of the tank up against the rock, rarely swims at all or moves spots. Now it’s breathing rapidly too. At first I thought it was just stress from the transfer, but now I’m thinking maybe it’s sick, but I have no idea with what. None of the fish have ever shown any signs of any type of illness, and I don’t see any external signs of issues, maybe it’s a little pale? Granted I don’t have experience with fish illness, but I’m not seeing any white spots or anything. 
 

If this is illness I have very limited access to meds because I live in Canada where we can’t easily buy them. I do have a small stash, but it doesn’t cover everything. 
 

Photos: 

 

 

 

 

Videos: 

 

https://imgur.com/a/dLRy7yv

[Clown79]

Possibly stressed from the switch. Is there any aggression occurring?

[Humblefish]

In addition to the ammonia alert badge, have you tested for ammonia using a liquid test kit?

[NaturallyKait]

2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

Possibly stressed from the switch. Is there any aggression occurring?

None that I have noticed. 

13 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

In addition to the ammonia alert badge, have you tested for ammonia using a liquid test kit?

Yes, I tested tonight with my API kit, no ammonia. 

[mcarroll]

Can you post a full tank pic?   (Can you also post a full tank pic of the old tank?)

 

Curious how different the layout is in the new tank.

 

What else is new in the new system vs how the old one was set up?   Heat?  Flow?  Lights?  Anything else?

[NaturallyKait]

20 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Can you post a full tank pic?   (Can you also post a full tank pic of the old tank?)

 

Curious how different the layout is in the new tank.

 

What else is new in the new system vs how the old one was set up?   Heat?  Flow?  Lights?  Anything else?

Photos of the new tank:

 

 

This was just before the lights went out as it was ramping down for “sunset”. The only photo I have so far of the full front because with the lighting in my living room during the day if I try to step far enough back to get the full front you can’t see the scape because of the reflection of the rest of my living room haha. 

 

 

A close up of the rock work just now, lights aren’t on yet for the day. 

 

This is the old tank. An old photo from September, but the scape didn’t change after that I just don’t seem to have a good full tank shot on hand from later than that. 
 

I did my best to recreate the same scape when I noticed how stressed the royal gramma is to try to make sure the little crevice it called home is still accessible, which it is. 
 

Temperature is the same in the new tank, it’s a new heater but I use an ink bird controller to manage the temp and it still has the same settings. Flow and light are different. The old tank had a single return that I had a RFG on as of Christmas, this tank has dual returns, no RFGs at this point. I changed lights from a Kessil a80 to an AI Prime 16HD. I don’t have a par meter but I did confirm with a lux meter on my phone that there’s no drastic change in light (I deleted the numbers unfortunately, but they were very similar). 

[Humblefish]

You sure the clowns aren't picking on him? He lost his "hidey hole" from the last tank, and may have not yet figured out the layout of the new tank.

[NaturallyKait]

1 hour ago, Humblefish said:

You sure the clowns aren't picking on him? He lost his "hidey hole" from the last tank, and may have not yet figured out the layout of the new tank.

There's only one clownfish right now (the old photo from September shows 2, but we had to split them up about a month later because of "marital differences") and I haven't seen any aggression or picking on it at all. I'm in the same room as the tank all day and constantly checking, but it's possible it's happening when I'm not looking. They're rarely even in the same area of the tank to be honest. 

[RustyRocket]

I would suggest if you have any Seachem Prime or water conditioner, just to add some in. I would chalk it up to stress from moving and he hasnt settled in yet. There isnt very much you can do for him if he is sick. So just make sure conditions are stable, water quality is good, there isnt too much movement around the tank, let him feel comfortable and see if he turns for the better.

[NaturallyKait]

40 minutes ago, RustyRocket said:

I would suggest if you have any Seachem Prime or water conditioner, just to add some in. I would chalk it up to stress from moving and he hasnt settled in yet. There isnt very much you can do for him if he is sick. So just make sure conditions are stable, water quality is good, there isnt too much movement around the tank, let him feel comfortable and see if he turns for the better.

I do have Prime, I always keep some on hand. What’s the benefit of Prime if there’s no ammonia? 

[Humblefish]

A better option would probably be Seachem StressGuard or API Stress Coat. Both are "healing agents" with different active ingredients. Might provide some benefit.

[NaturallyKait]

9 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

A better option would probably be Seachem StressGuard or API Stress Coat. Both are "healing agents" with different active ingredients. Might provide some benefit.

I don’t have those on hand but I can see if any of the stores around have it tomorrow for pickup. Those are safe for the display tank I assume?

[mcarroll]

BTW, how is the Gramma eating now?  Still not???

 

18 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

I did my best to recreate the same scape when I noticed how stressed the royal gramma is to try to make sure the little crevice it called home is still accessible, which it is.

Not sure if there were other holes, maybe that I can't see from the perspective of the shot, and so maybe this isn't the one you're referring to, but....

 

 

17 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

Temperature is the same in the new tank, it’s a new heater but I use an ink bird controller to manage the temp and it still has the same settings.

Not related to the fish, but...

 

Do not depend on the Inkbird's temperature readout or alarms.  

 

Instead, use at least one real analog thermometer on the tank and always go by that.  I'd even suggest having a backup thermometer in the tank too – check both.  I often use an LCD thermometer as the backup.  Sometimes I'll use an electronic thermometer like the one from Lifeguard:

 

17 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

Flow and light are different.

Is his hidey hole getting blasted with flow by any chance?

 

How about the clowns' home?

 

17 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

I did confirm with a lux meter on my phone that there’s no drastic change in light

Good!  😁

 

15 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

it's possible it's happening when I'm not looking.

If you're not doing much viewing after lights out (expected) then you'd definitely be missing out on any quarrels over sleeping spots.  

 

Your fish probably have a predictable bedtime if they're unstressed...should be right about lights-out time.  If they disappear into the rocks and you don't see any more action for a while, I'd say all is good.   

 

I'd spend at least one night up late watching for maybe an hour or more after lights-out just to play it safe.

 

5 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

I don’t have those on hand but I can see if any of the stores around have it tomorrow for pickup. Those are safe for the display tank I assume?

Should be safe in the display, but I'm not sure what the intention is.  

 

As far as I know "Stress Coat" is mostly intended to help with physical issues like abrasion of their slime coat from being netted and moved from tank to tank, as the name sorta implies and active ingredient of Aloe confirms.  (Even their marketing blurb basically says as much: https://apifishcare.com/product/stress-coat)

 

Unless he looks physically disturbed, I can't see this helping.  

 

And if he does look like that, the clown is definitely picking on him – you need to get one of them out of the tank ASAP, or do a major re-arrange on the tank layout to see if that helps.  

 

The Gramma won't be long for this world if this is what's going on and it's left unresolved.  (Same as you found with the two clowns, basically.)

 

I have to say at least in the pic at the top of the thread that he looks sad, but not physically abused.  

[NaturallyKait]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

BTW, how is the Gramma eating now?  Still not???

 

Not sure if there were other holes, maybe that I can't see from the perspective of the shot, and so maybe this isn't the one you're referring to, but....

 

 

Not related to the fish, but...

 

Do not depend on the Inkbird's temperature readout or alarms.  

 

Instead, use at least one real analog thermometer on the tank and always go by that.  I'd even suggest having a backup thermometer in the tank too – check both.  I often use an LCD thermometer as the backup.  Sometimes I'll use an electronic thermometer like the one from Lifeguard:

 

Is his hidey hole getting blasted with flow by any chance?

 

How about the clowns' home?

 

Good!  😁

 

If you're not doing much viewing after lights out (expected) then you'd definitely be missing out on any quarrels over sleeping spots.  

 

Your fish probably have a predictable bedtime if they're unstressed...should be right about lights-out time.  If they disappear into the rocks and you don't see any more action for a while, I'd say all is good.   

 

I'd spend at least one night up late watching for maybe an hour or more after lights-out just to play it safe.

 

Should be safe in the display, but I'm not sure what the intention is.  

 

As far as I know "Stress Coat" is mostly intended to help with physical issues like abrasion of their slime coat from being netted and moved from tank to tank, as the name sorta implies and active ingredient of Aloe confirms.  (Even their marketing blurb basically says as much: https://apifishcare.com/product/stress-coat)

 

Unless he looks physically disturbed, I can't see this helping.  

 

And if he does look like that, the clown is definitely picking on him – you need to get one of them out of the tank ASAP, or do a major re-arrange on the tank layout to see if that helps.  

 

The Gramma won't be long for this world if this is what's going on and it's left unresolved.  (Same as you found with the two clowns, basically.)

 

I have to say at least in the pic at the top of the thread that he looks sad, but not physically abused.  

I still haven’t witnessed him eating, no. Which is very concerning to me. 
 

That hole wasn’t his little home, it used to be around back and I can’t really get it in a photo. It is still there. Today I’m going to shift those side rocks though I think, just in case that’s the issue. 
 

Temp has been checked with a few thermometers and all check out within 0.2 of the 26*c, which is what the inkbird is set to. No direct flow is going at the royal gramma’s old home. The clownfish actually sleeps at the very top of the tank in the corner, and that hasn’t changed. I’m actually up frequently past lights out thanks to having a kid with a neurological sleeping problem so I’ve watched them all go to their little sleeping spots (aside from the royal gramma who sleeps wherever it was that day) and not come back out. Random drop in peeks in the middle of the night they’re always still in the same spots sleeping. I don’t see any evidence of any kind of injury or abrasion on the royal gramma. He looks exactly like he always has, just lethargic and always hanging out on the sand just leaning against the rocks or the side of the tank and not eating. In comparison before we split the two clowns up we would see several fights a day between the two and one was getting injuries, which was why one went back to the LFS before they ended up fighting to the death. 

[NaturallyKait]

He apparently tried to fit into this hole overnight. Clearly he is too big so he just decided to lay on it. I rechecked his old hole in the back is still open, but I’m going to shift things this morning in case there’s still something bugging him by his hole that I can’t see. 
 

[Humblefish]

14 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

I don’t have those on hand but I can see if any of the stores around have it tomorrow for pickup. Those are safe for the display tank I assume?

Yes, they are both DT safe

[Tamberav]

I would probably buy a few pieces of life rock or dry rock...some type that won't cause a cycle and add a bit more territory and hiding spots. It doesn't look like a lot of rock for the size tank he is in now.

 

 

[NaturallyKait]

3 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

I would probably buy a few prices of life rock or dry rock...some type that won't cause a cycle and add a bit more territory and hiding spots. It doesn't look like a lot of rock for the size tank he is in now.

 

 

That’s the plan in the long run, but the LFS is currently closed (we only have one, tiny island). He’s taking emergency curb side pickups for people who need things like food or chemicals immediately but he said his rock was all pretty much gone and he was waiting on a new shipment when covid hit and it got stopped because of border closures. I’m hoping rearranging things again will help for now 😔

 

[NaturallyKait]

Poor guy is still stressed today. I reassembled the rock work and confirmed his little hidey hole is there and accessible but he still won’t go into it. I don’t know why. Suppose there’s any merit in trying something like a PVC elbow or something? Maybe he’d take refuge in there and feel safe? I could easily grab something like that via curb side pickup at Home Depot tomorrow. Not a perfect long term solution by any means, but if it worked maybe it could buy me some time to wait for some rock?

[Humblefish]

2 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

Poor guy is still stressed today. I reassembled the rock work and confirmed his little hidey hole is there and accessible but he still won’t go into it. I don’t know why. Suppose there’s any merit in trying something like a PVC elbow or something? Maybe he’d take refuge in there and feel safe? I could easily grab something like that via curb side pickup at Home Depot tomorrow. Not a perfect long term solution by any means, but if it worked maybe it could buy me some time to wait for some rock?

Is he breathing heavy at all, or scratching on anything??

[NaturallyKait]

11 minutes ago, Humblefish said:

Is he breathing heavy at all, or scratching on anything??

Breathing the same as the video I linked in the first post. No scratching that I’ve noticed. Just not really swimming around at all, he just leans against the rocks wherever he is. He seems to spend a lot of time laying in that little indent from my post yesterday morning now but he doesn’t really fit in that little hole and he’s not happy, still not eating. 

[Humblefish]

11 hours ago, NaturallyKait said:

Breathing the same as the video I linked in the first post. No scratching that I’ve noticed. Just not really swimming around at all, he just leans against the rocks wherever he is. He seems to spend a lot of time laying in that little indent from my post yesterday morning now but he doesn’t really fit in that little hole and he’s not happy, still not eating. 

I would be tempted to give him a Methylene Blue bath and then put him in his own small tank. To see if he recovers. Might not help, but it doesn't seem like he's going to survive in the DT for whatever reason.

[NaturallyKait]

1 hour ago, Humblefish said:

I would be tempted to give him a Methylene Blue bath and then put him in his own small tank. To see if he recovers. Might not help, but it doesn't seem like he's going to survive in the DT for whatever reason.

Thankfully that’s one of the few meds I have (can’t buy more in Canada). I don’t really have another place to put him right now other than the old tank that I haven’t cleaned out yet, but I don’t have any more rock and I worry he’d be even more stressed with no rock? He started acting like this the moment he went into the bucket I kept him in for like 25 mins between tanks (with an air stone and a heater). He’s actually a bit more active today, but still definitely stressed. He actually swam around this morning for the first time since the move over. Does that mean he may be finally starting to adjust? 
 

This is him now. He is definitely still breathing funny and stressed, I know that. I know the clownfish is right there but that’s not typical. She’s just following me around the tank right now begging for food because the lights just came up. She always jumps front and centre anytime someone comes up to the tank hoping it’s food time.  
 

https://imgur.com/a/w5yvxkB

[Humblefish]

Maybe give him a little more time to adjust to his new surroundings. When was the last time he ate?

[Humblefish]

After looking at the video, I don't like the labored breathing. Clearly something (environmental, disease, aggression from other fish) is distressing him.