My coral is dying, what happened?

[Reefkid88]

Oh wow I have NEVER had that happen to an Acan,I did have a colony get brown jelly but it eventually went away. 

 

 When I had sps,at first 50% wc's with RSCP was fine then the demand for trace elements grew as the frags did and I had to dose. But majority of the time they will brown then rtn or stn. So I really think chemistry was to blame. 

 

  The only time I lost sps over night was when I was a noob and had absolutely no idea what I was getting into. 

[pokerdobe]

3 hours ago, Clown79 said:

The thing is, the coral wasn't dying, none of them were,  no issues at all until the parasite start decimating the coral.

 

Actually the worst part is that the corals looked amazing and growing, then they are literally being devoured. 

 

I don't believe RTN is completely caused by the parasite, I'm skeptical of that. I believe it can be a cause like many other things. We still have a long ways to go to fully understand everything that causes rtn/stn, parasites, etc

 

A lot of ppl aren't aware of the parasite, so educating ppl is important.

 

 

 

So here is an example.

 

First pic, 2 days ago. Completely healthy, no issues, eating, growing new heads.

 

2nd pic today

 

 

 

 

I still disagree. 

 

From what I've read and scoured, the elimination of philaster lucinda does not stop RTN, it merely slows it down at best. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4083779/). 

 

During the experiment, the protozoan was completely eradicated from the testing environment, yet did nothing to stop RTN. If philaster was truly the culprit, then it would stand to reason that elimination of said culprit would halt necrosis. The same paper noted that a couple of antibiotic treatments were successful in interrupting the RTN process. This suggests that necrosis events are most likely bacterial in nature and that Philaster is just an opportunistic feeder (much like bristleworms as @seabasspointed out) that can speed up the process, but does not serve as the source. 

 

I've closely followed the whole philaster and Prime Corals drama - to put it nicely, it does not paint a pretty picture of Prime Corals, his methodology, or general attitude.  

[Clown79]

6 hours ago, pokerdobe said:

 

I still disagree. 

 

From what I've read and scoured, the elimination of philaster lucinda does not stop RTN, it merely slows it down at best. (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4083779/). 

 

During the experiment, the protozoan was completely eradicated from the testing environment, yet did nothing to stop RTN. If philaster was truly the culprit, then it would stand to reason that elimination of said culprit would halt necrosis. The same paper noted that a couple of antibiotic treatments were successful in interrupting the RTN process. This suggests that necrosis events are most likely bacterial in nature and that Philaster is just an opportunistic feeder (much like bristleworms as @seabasspointed out) that can speed up the process, but does not serve as the source. 

 

I've closely followed the whole philaster and Prime Corals drama - to put it nicely, it does not paint a pretty picture of Prime Corals, his methodology, or general attitude.  

I'm very skeptical of his product and all else.

 

I didn't rely on their thread for my research. I stopped reading the thread after a few pages.

It all becomes a debate of who is right. 

In the end there still is no 100% answer.

 

I prefer to stick with literature and studies when researching.

[seabass]

2 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I prefer to stick with literature and studies when researching.

So in that vein, is there a particular link (or links) that you'd like to share which argues philaster as the (or a) cause of RTN?  I was under the impression that there wasn't a lot of third party studies which support this assertion; but I'm certainly open to new information.

 

I feel that philaster may put the "R" in RTN, as it seems to be able to make relative quick work out of a failing coral.  However, I'd actually like to see more data on causes, versus strictly proving philaster's presence at the scene of RTN (which I believe has been shown to be the case).

 

I'm thinking of HarryPotter's unintentional alkalinity spike, which almost took out his SPS tank, but eventually recovered nicely from.  I find that example very hard to reconcile with claims of philaster being the cause RTN.  It's too late at this point, but it would be interesting to know if philaster was present there too.

 

[Tamberav]

Since several corals are effected so quickly. I am going with a stability issue/failure of equipment.

 

Did you do a water change recently before this happened?

 

Did you check your thermometer and heater? 

 

 

 

 

[Clown79]

8 hours ago, seabass said:

So in that vein, is there a particular link (or links) that you'd like to share which argues philaster as the (or a) cause of RTN?  I was under the impression that there wasn't a lot of third party studies which support this assertion; but I'm certainly open to new information.

 

I feel that philaster may put the "R" in RTN, as it seems to be able to make relative quick work out of a failing coral.  However, I'd actually like to see more data on causes, versus strictly proving philaster's presence at the scene of RTN (which I believe has been shown to be the case).

 

I'm thinking of HarryPotter's unintentional alkalinity spike, which almost took out his SPS tank, but eventually recovered nicely from.  I find that example very hard to reconcile with claims of philaster being the cause RTN.  It's too late at this point, but it would be interesting to know if philaster was present there too.

 

I'm not arguing that it is THE cause, I simply stated that it is a cause of it.

 

For some reason me advising ppl of other causes for RTN has led some to believe that I am arguing it is the ONLY cause.

 

Believing that there is only 1 cause to a problem is ridiculous, especially since there is little proof on either side of the argument.

 

The reason we don't have a cure or 100% treatment/prevention to rtn is because we still don't know 100% the cause of it...which often means lack of scientific research or multiple causes

 

 

 

 

[seabass]

4 hours ago, Clown79 said:

For some reason me advising ppl of other causes for RTN has led some to believe that I am arguing it is the ONLY cause.

That's probably because Prime Coral advocated that it's the sole cause.  However, I get that you don't feel the same.  Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

 

But given this, and your statement,

16 hours ago, Clown79 said:

I prefer to stick with literature and studies when researching.

What studies have you come across that indicate that philaster is a cause of RTN, versus just a scavenger of dying coral tissue?  I'm not trying to be combative, I am truly interested in reading these studies.  However, at this point, I feel I'm not adding anything new.

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

That's probably because Prime Coral advocated that it's the sole cause.  However, I get that you don't feel the same.  Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

 

But given this, and your statement,

What studies have you come across that indicate that philaster is a cause of RTN, versus just a scavenger of dying coral tissue?  I'm not trying to be combative, I am truly interested in reading these studies.  However, at this point, I'm going to drop this, as I feel I'm not adding anything new.

Oh I know what they advocated and because they also created the "treatment" for it, is what's makes me even more skeptical of their claims.

 

I need a lot more than that to believe something. Lol. 

 

I didn't learn about the parasite from that thread. Through my research I stumbled upon it. 

 

I think it's a valid reason for some rtn but not all.

 

I just simply am not one to believe that there is a one size fits all.

 

I've had philaster parasites, confirmed with microscope.

Nothing really works on it. Peroxide, regular dips have not. I saved 1 hammer by dipping it and fragging a head off.

1 piece if stylo made it by accident. I removed the main piece but 1 piece broke off and lived.

 

The acan- is worse. No saving it. 

 

I have also had RTN that wasn't due to philaster. Just turned white, no signs of the weird substance. That rtn was due to alk issues when using a different salt. 

 

Because I have had both, I can see the difference and definitely know that philaster is not the only cause of rtn. 

 

There is a distinctive difference between the 2, not much time to see it but there is a difference. End result ends up being coral skeleton.

 

Once the coral is decimated, philaster is not seen under microscope. I have habitually checked, probably due to worry of losing more to it.

 

Then a few weeks later, bam you got it on another coral.😥

 

 

[Clown79]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

That's probably because Prime Coral advocated that it's the sole cause.  However, I get that you don't feel the same.  Sorry if it seemed otherwise.

 

But given this, and your statement,

What studies have you come across that indicate that philaster is a cause of RTN, versus just a scavenger of dying coral tissue?  I'm not trying to be combative, I am truly interested in reading these studies.  However, at this point, I'm going to drop this, as I feel I'm not adding anything new.

I googled it because another hobbyist advised me of the parasite with my microscope pics.

 

I found various pages on the subject, not on forums. I saved it on my computer I believe. 

 

Unfortunately from what I saw. There was a completely healthy coral 1 day, then the substance appears(the parasite), then the coral is white.

 

When I get on my puter, I can post the pics of the stylo in progress, it was 3 days.

 

You are contributing to the thread and always do with your valued knowledge.

 

This is how we learn and grow in knowledge, by discussions. We stay in the dark and stuck in old ways by not discussing what we learn along the way.

 

So far I have learned, dino's aren't the worst, this parasite is for me. 

[Tamberav]

I would think in our closed systems. If a protozoa was attacking healthy coral. We would lose everything. I don't see any reason it would attack one coral but not another and it seems like something that should be easily spread from one hobbiests tank to the next if dips do not effect it.

 

I wonder about taking that protozoa and infecting another control tank? See what happens? 

 

Also, I wonder how UV effects it? It should at least lower the load? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Clown79]

18 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

I would think in our closed systems. If a protozoa was attacking healthy coral. We would lose everything. I don't see any reason it would attack one coral but not another and it seems like something that should be easily spread from one hobbiests tank to the next if dips do not effect it.

 

I wonder about taking that protozoa and infecting another control tank? See what happens? 

 

Also, I wonder how UV effects it? It should at least lower the load? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I'm not really sure. Not enough research has been done on it.

 

 

The info available on this particular parasite is that it "appears" when a coral is unhealthy, opportunistic parasite basically.

 

My own experience, the corals visually looked healthy and were growing. So that is conflicting.

 

The corals effected in my tank were nowhere near each other, all growing and appeared healthy(not closed up, no changes until the parasite is visually seen), and it's happened weeks apart. 

 

So really no rhyme or reason, can't even prevent it.

 

In time it could wipe out a system. I've lost 3 corals in a few months. 

 

I have transferred corals from my lagoon to my pico. If it appears in there, then I guess it confirms its ability to spread from system to system.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[seabass]

I know this is a ridiculous example:

I've witnessed birds (crows, and even some other species) are almost always present around dead animals along the roadside.  Autopsies of captured birds show signs of animal tissue in their guts, which proves they have been feeding on these animals.  We are not sure what triggers this, as the presence of birds doesn't always result in dead roadside creatures.

 

While I haven't specifically witnessed birds killing roadside creatures, I haven't verified another reason why otherwise healthy animals should suddenly die on the road.  The presence of birds, alongside of the dead animals, seems much higher than a random distribution would predict, leading some to speculate that birds are causing these animals' deaths.

 

 

39 minutes ago, Clown79 said:

The info available on this particular parasite is that it "appears" when a coral is unhealthy, opportunistic parasite basically.  My own experience, the corals visually looked healthy and were growing. So that is conflicting.

It's called rapid tissue necrosis because it happens quickly and suddenly.  The protozoa make the tissue disappear even quicker.  However, I'm still not willing to discount philaster as a possible cause of RTN; but it seems to me that you are right in that they are opportunistic scavengers.  IDK, maybe even some physical damage can initiate feeding, which might damage the surrounding tissue, and start a chain reaction.  I know people who have saved colonies by fragging off healthy sections of a receding coral.

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, seabass said:

I know this is a ridiculous example:

I've witnessed birds (crows, and even some other species) are almost always present around dead animals along the roadside.  Autopsies of captured birds show signs of animal tissue in their guts, which proves they have been feeding on these animals.  We are not sure what triggers this, as the presence of birds doesn't always result in dead roadside creatures.

 

While I haven't specifically witnessed birds killing roadside creatures, I haven't verified another reason why otherwise healthy animals should suddenly die on the road.  The presence of birds, alongside of the dead animals, seems much higher than a random distribution would predict, leading some to speculate that birds are causing these animals' deaths.

 

 

It's called rapid tissue necrosis because it happens quickly and suddenly.  The protozoa make the tissue disappear even quicker.  However, I'm still not willing to discount philaster as a possible cause of RTN; but it seems to me that you are right in that they are opportunistic scavengers.  IDK, maybe even some physical damage can initiate feeding, which might damage the surrounding tissue, and start a chain reaction.  I know people who have saved colonies by fragging off healthy sections of a receding coral.

Definitely so. I did read that even slight damage can cause it.

 

I highly recommend fragging the infected portion, it's what worked on my hammer so that will be my go to method if possible. 

 

 

[A.m.P]

This turned into a really great thread lol... I skimmed through that philaster fire a few months back, but this just seems like an alkalinity swing. Not testing and growing sps in a small system with only 10% alk and calcium replenishment would essentially make this kind of result a matter of time...

[Pjanssen]

So I'm wondering if the OP has gotten anything out of this?🤔

[A.m.P]

I mean, they said they were going to grab some test kits and two-part. Sounds about as on-track as you can get.

[seabass]

1 hour ago, Pjanssen said:

So I'm wondering if the OP has gotten anything out of this?🤔

 

I hope that my original post still stands.  That stony corals consume elements, which need to be replenished; and stability is especially important to SPS.  Poor parameters and instability are a recipe for SPS disasters.

 

Philaster protozoa aren't really that important.  Do they play a role?  Maybe, but there is little we can do about it.  People have been successfully keeping these corals for decades.  While more difficult than other corals, SPS can be kept, regardless of philaster.

[dferrari13]

Interesting thread!

[Clown79]

2 hours ago, seabass said:

 

I hope that my original post still stands.  That stony corals consume elements, which need to be replenished; and stability is especially important to SPS.  Poor parameters and instability are a recipe for SPS disasters.

 

Philaster protozoa aren't really that important.  Do they play a role?  Maybe, but there is little we can do about it.  People have been successfully keeping these corals for decades.  While more difficult than other corals, SPS can be kept, regardless of philaster.

I think anything we can learn from is important...maybe I'm wrong I sharing in info.

 

 

It may not be what caused this person's rtn or issues but it is something that exists that a lot of hobbyists don't know of.

 

Sorry to the op for bringing up philaster since it side tracked the topic.

 

[seabass]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

Sorry to the op for bringing up philaster since it side tracked the topic.

Why sorry?  I think it's relevant to the conversation of RTN.  It might not be the cause of the OP's problems.  It might not even be the cause of RTN; but it likely plays a role.  Seems relevant, even if we may disagree on it causing the necrosis.

[Pjanssen]

1 hour ago, Clown79 said:

I think anything we can learn from is important...maybe I'm wrong I sharing in info.

I agree...I think sharing this information is relevant

 

It may not be what caused this person's rtn or issues but it is something that exists that a lot of hobbyists don't know of.

I agree 100%

Sorry to the op for bringing up philaster since it side tracked the topic.

I think it was important and relevant to the OP's original question

What seemed like what may have been a heated argument between you and @seabass, to me was read as a healthy debate and brings up the point that everything should be taken in and further researched for mor understanding by whomever deems it necessary and relevant to their situation.

[seabass]

21 hours ago, Pjanssen said:

What seemed like what may have been a heated argument between you and @seabass

@Clown79, I hope you didn't feel picked on.  That certainly wasn't my intention.  I personally didn't see it as heated; and I'm glad that you shared the info on the protozoa.

 

Someday a link may be made proving that philaster is a significant cause, or at least a contributor to RTN.  Maybe we'll even be able to safely combat it in our tanks.  Or possibly, even reduce coral bleaching on our ocean reefs.

 

Ultimately, I don't have any proof of what I have speculated in this thread.  However, my point was that I'm not aware of proof that philaster is more than a scavenger of damaged coral tissue either.  I'd still be interested in reading anything that proves otherwise.

 

I agree with Penny, it was a good discussion.  I hope you feel so too.

[MrObscura]

Yea, I'm not sold on the parasite angle. Can if be one of many causes of Coral death, sure. But prime coral are the only ones really pushing it as the main, if not only cause of rtn, to peddle a product mind you. A very shady product at that.  Their evidence, post history over at reef2reef, and product itself are questionable to say the least. 

 

This is a company that advertised their product as "reef safe" only for it to kill a bunch of people's fish and then say,  "well, we never said 'fish safe'." 

 

Gtfoh

 

If the parasite is present, it's present all the time and therefore isn't the cause of the corals decline but rather an oportunist or scavenger taking advantage of the situation. The main cause that resulted it weakening the coral still remains and will even if the parasite were eradicated from the environment. 

 

The heyenas that scare off lions and finish eating a still breathing animal did not cause the animals death. Without the hyenas the lions would still exist. 

[Clown79]

6 hours ago, seabass said:

@Clown79, I hope you didn't feel picked on.  That certainly wasn't my intention.  I personally didn't see it as heated; and I'm glad that you shared the info on the protozoa.

 

Someday a link may be made showing that philaster is a significant cause, or at least a small contributor to RTN.  Maybe we'll even be able to safely combat it in our tanks.  Or possibly, even reduce coral bleaching on our ocean reefs.

 

Ultimately, I don't have any proof of what I have speculated in this thread.  However, my point was that I'm not aware of proof that philaster is more than a scavenger of damaged coral tissue either.  I'd still be interested in reading anything that proves otherwise.

 

I agree with Penny, it was a good discussion.  I hope you feel so too.

No, no worries.

 

I certainly didn't take it as heated or an argument either.

 

The written word sometimes can be taken the wrong way but there it's pretty easy to tell when ppl get into a nasty argument...I didn't see our debate as one. If anything the different knowledge and views are educational.

 

Unfortunately there isn't enough research being done on RTN, philaster, or brown jelly. I wish there was more being done because it could help us hobbyists.

[Clown79]

3 hours ago, MrObscura said:

Yea, I'm not sold on the parasite angle. Can if be one of many causes of Coral death, sure. But prime coral are the only ones really pushing it as the main, if not only cause of rtn, to peddle a product mind you. A very shady product at that.  Their evidence, post history over at reef2reef, and product itself are questionable to say the least. 

 

This is a company that advertised their product as "reef safe" only for it to kill a bunch of people's fish and then say,  "well, we never said 'fish safe'." 

 

Gtfoh

 

If the parasite is present, it's present all the time and therefore isn't the cause of the corals decline but rather an oportunist or scavenger taking advantage of the situation. The main cause that resulted it weakening the coral still remains and will even if the parasite were eradicated from the environment. 

 

The heyenas that scare off lions and finish eating a still breathing animal did not cause the animals death. Without the hyenas the lions would still exist. 

I believe in the parasite because I've had it, I've read about it elsewhere.

 

I did stumble on the r2r thread but that's not where I learned about the parasite.

 

Unfortunately the guy who is pushing the theory of it being the only cause in rtn, I believe is wrong for 3 reasons

 

1. I have experienced rtn with and without the philaster. So it can't be the only cause.

 

2. He also sells the only product to supposedly work on the parasite...that's just too convenient. Lol.

 

3. There rarely is 1 main cause of a problem.