ich in a copper bath treatment?

[Tamberav]

You seem to be mistaken thinking your cleaner wrasse will help ich. it will do nothing for it.

 

It may help clean off dead skin or lose scales or flukes but not ich.

 

You put those fish back, they will simply have ich again since your tank hasn't been fallow 76 days assuming it is ich.

 

Very simple.

[ReefGoat]

15 hours ago, CoralStorm said:

doing a bit more investogating and it seems liek it might be dead skin from the ich it had at one point could it possibly be this cause if so i can just put it in the dt and the cleaners will deal with it then again it could be sometging else it does not show any signs ir symptoms of the disease other than the spots and so far it does not look like its growing

Bruh are you kidding me? FoR ThE lAsT TiMe...YoUr DiSpLaY StIll HaS IcH ( and probably tons of other problems, as I haven't seen you post a FTS of the display since the brown cloudy water problems)

[CoralStorm]

 

 

7 hours ago, ReefGoat said:

Bruh are you kidding me? FoR ThE lAsT TiMe...YoUr DiSpLaY StIll HaS IcH ( and probably tons of other problems, as I haven't seen you post a FTS of the display since the brown cloudy water problems)

dude take a look at the display mate i will upload a photo of it on another topic just to how before/after photos

8 hours ago, Tamberav said:

You seem to be mistaken thinking your cleaner wrasse will help ich. it will do nothing for it.

 

It may help clean off dead skin or lose scales or flukes but not ich.

 

You put those fish back, they will simply have ich again since your tank hasn't been fallow 76 days assuming it is ich.

 

Very simple.

it was probss not ich cause they have not disappeared ever since i attempted to clean off the stuff and it worked i will keep it in qt for a bit and see if it returns i know its a parasite if it doesnt then it should be safe. the cleaner wrasse is not going to help ich above i meant for dead skin/scales

[mcarroll]

On 12/28/2018 at 12:18 PM, CoralStorm said:

if it is ich thwn why is all the other fish to contracting it?

Follow me on this...

 

Fish, like anything else, do not get sick from the mere presence of a pathogen.

 

They get sick when their immune systems become overwhelmed. 

 

And that only happens due to stress.

 

But stress doesn't affect all fish equally.

 

Here's a good read about one potential kind of difference (out of many) between fish:

Red fish, blue fish: trade-offs between pigmentation and immunity in Betta splendens

 

You may find more interesting stuff like that in my site's Stress section.

On 12/28/2018 at 5:23 PM, Tamberav said:

QT needs to be at least 10 feet away. 

I know you didn't make that up so this is not an accusation, but that's bogus info. 

 

In short, that number is based on outdoor pond aquaculture and is irrelevant to indoor conditions in aquariums. 

(But read the link it has the details.)

[Tamberav]

8 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Follow me on this...

 

Fish, like anything else, do not get sick from the mere presence of a pathogen.

 

They get sick when their immune systems become overwhelmed. 

 

And that only happens due to stress.

 

But stress doesn't affect all fish equally.

 

Here's a good read about one potential kind of difference (out of many) between fish:

Red fish, blue fish: trade-offs between pigmentation and immunity in Betta splendens

 

You may find more interesting stuff like that in my site's Stress section.

I know you didn't make that up so this is not an accusation, but that's bogus info. 

 

In short, that number is based on outdoor pond aquaculture and is irrelevant to indoor conditions in aquariums. 

(But read the link it has the details.)

So how many feet? 0? 1? 5? Needs to be in a different room of the house? Don't know?

 

I would be interested to know but I use the better safe than sorry approach. Air stones spray and cross contamination is easy on tanks next to each other.

 

The OP's tank is a very stressful place. I am not sure he has the money or willingness  to change it and stock properly. 

 

Almost every nano is probably stressful, have you seen how many fish some of us cram in a tiny box? How many feed just pellets, sparingly because algae is scary?

 

 

[mcarroll]

15 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

So how many feet? 0? 1? 5?

It's one of those options, but check out that link -- this has been examined scientifically, but somehow the incorrect info got into circulation.  Such is the internet, eh?   

 

(PM'd you too, BTW.)

 

You're right about all the stress....why it's so important to have the correct info on the topic.

[Tamberav]

8 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

It's one of those options, but check out that link -- this has been examined scientifically, but somehow the incorrect info got into circulation.  Such is the internet, eh?   

 

(PM'd you too, BTW.)

 

You're right about all the stress....why it's so important to have the correct info on the topic.

 

Interesting link, what about pumps? Honestly I would assume most cross contamination is spread from poor practices, hands, tubes used to transfer water, not fully drying and pumps/equipment. I do put a fan on high to dry off old infected TTM stuff so I got some wind going 😉

 

I can't tell you I would feel comfortable putting an infected tank next to my DT though. No way. 

 

[CoralStorm]

46 minutes ago, mcarroll said:

Follow me on this...

 

Fish, like anything else, do not get sick from the mere presence of a pathogen.

 

They get sick when their immune systems become overwhelmed. 

 

And that only happens due to stress.

 

But stress doesn't affect all fish equally.

 

Here's a good read about one potential kind of difference (out of many) between fish:

Red fish, blue fish: trade-offs between pigmentation and immunity in Betta splendens

 

You may find more interesting stuff like that in my site's Stress section.

I know you didn't make that up so this is not an accusation, but that's bogus info. 

 

In short, that number is based on outdoor pond aquaculture and is irrelevant to indoor conditions in aquariums. 

(But read the link it has the details.)

sorry mt quote did not make sense in the moment so what i meant is "if it is ich then why arent the other fish catching ich then

[Clown79]

5 hours ago, CoralStorm said:

sorry mt quote did not make sense in the moment so what i meant is "if it is ich then why arent the other fish catching ich then

They may have it. The tank may still have ich in it.

Once, again, the spots only show up for a duration of time.

 

Some fishes immune systems can handle ich and some can't. Etc etc

 

 

https://www.thesprucepets.com/life-cycle-saltwater-ich-cryptocaryon-irritans-2924987

 

 

[CoralStorm]

8 hours ago, Clown79 said:

They may have it. The tank may still have ich in it.

Once, again, the spots only show up for a duration of time.

 

Some fishes immune systems can handle ich and some can't. Etc etc

 

 

https://www.thesprucepets.com/life-cycle-saltwater-ich-cryptocaryon-irritans-2924987

 

 

Clownfish have a reputation for being hardy and if it returns over the next week or so i know its some sort of parasite

[Clown79]

33 minutes ago, CoralStorm said:

Clownfish have a reputation for being hardy and if it returns over the next week or so i know its some sort of parasite

I'm well aware of the effects of ich on each fish and what reinfection does to them. 

 

I have gone through 2 fallow periods- 1 was for an undetermined cause of death to 2 fish but for caution sake and prevention of more loss of life, I did an 8 week fallow. 

 

 

I think no matter what anyone tells you, no matter what scientific proof we provide you- you simply don't want to go through the very necessary steps to prevent the spread of infection and not get rid of it in your DT tank.

 

 

We've all provided you with the necessary info, it's up to you to decide on what to do.

 

 

Good luck

[mcarroll]

16 hours ago, Tamberav said:

Honestly I would assume most cross contamination is spread from poor practices, hands, tubes used to transfer water, not fully drying and pumps/equipment.

I think you're right.

 

15 hours ago, CoralStorm said:

sorry mt quote did not make sense in the moment so what i meant is "if it is ich then why arent the other fish catching ich then

 

That's the question I answered, so I guess I must have got it.  :) 

 

But it's a question worth asking twice IMO-- if you were to believe everything you read about fish disease and QT you'd absolutely think all the fish would have it...especially by now!

 

STRESS

To repeat, not all QT's/tanks deliver the same amount of stress to fish.

 

Not all fish are affected the same by each stress.

 

Stress, after all, is what knocks down the immune system and what allows pathogens to be pathogenic. 

 

Your fish which are currently sick are simply the ones that are the most stressed. 

 

Your non-sick fish are the ones that still have a functional immune system.

 

It's no more mysterious than that. 

 

Unless you want to go above and beyond.  (Read on!)  

 

EXAMINATION

Technically if you could get the apparently-healthy fish out for examination, you'd want to look at their gills...possibly with the aid of a jewler's loupe or a compound/dissecting microscope (or similar).

 

Even if the fish are clear on the outside, the gills may have attracted parasites.  The fish "ought" to be demonstrating the infection in their behavior in this case unless it's a VERY low-grade infection, but LOOKING is how you are able to be SURE.

 

Although the folks that write the guides don't seem to get into this stuff for some reason, there are a ton of youtubes and web pages on it to guide you. 

 

Also @Paul B has mentioned his exam/microscope process a few times...here's one(r2r) from his thread "A discussion on immunity".

 

(One of the best fish care threads on the web IMO....should be required reading before anyone buys fish.)

 

 

TANK STABILITY
Interestingly, tank stability has a lot to do with pathogen virulence. (ie whether an outbreak gets really bad or not)  

 

This is some info we can apply to our QT's, which are often the epitome of stressful...and to our display tanks, which could usually be less stressful than we make them. 

 

One article I have about this describes one high-stress tank.  Somewhat similar to a stereotypical QT build, it was a heavily stocked (see below) concrete pond.  Not only did the fish have flat worms AND ich simultaneously, but the ich was so P'd off by the stressful state of the tank that it was even infecting the flat worms on the fish!!  

 

Yes, an obligate fish parasite was infecting a flatworm due to high stress tank conditions. 

 

Seems like overcrowding was their issue...something most folks don't pay enough attention to...they had almost half a pound of fish per gallon....a half-pounder would be between 8 and 10 inches long!  An 8-inch fish per gallon!!

 

Anyway, when a parasite "loses host specificity" like in that article (ie parasitizes a flatworm instead of a fish) they call this "hyperparasitism". 

 

You know what they think kicked off this hyperparasitism?

 

Not the stress of overcrowding, but medicating the fish for another pathogen they had before the ich and flatworms.  Medicating them ruined the fishes' immune systems.  Oddly (to me at least), the ich-infected flat worms acted much like fish act when they are infected with ich -- jerking their bodies around.

 

Definitey click and read the whole article for the details....it's linked here. 

 

If we apply this knowledge to our QT and display tanks, we'd realize (even more) how important it is not to add more stress onto new fish like we often do:

...bare-bones QT tanks

...QT tanks with too many fish

...unnecessary medications

...immature display tanks

...display tanks with too many fish

...etc.

 

All avoidable.

[Tamberav]

Not related to the OP but I think most nano tanks fall under overcrowding or too small. 

 

 

[mcarroll]

34 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Not related to the OP but I think most nano tanks fall under overcrowding or too small. 

Every tank falls under that heading more or less, depending somewhat on how and with what it's stocked.  

 

Some stresses we have more control over than others....which is why it's important to exercise as much control as possible over stress where we can....either by reducing stress or by reinforcing their immune systems so they can tolerate it.

 

True that tank size will rarely match well with natural habitat size.

 

Few exceptions, mostly the more cryptic animals, or the oddballs like clownfish that only maintain a very small territory.  

 

OTOH, with many other common fish, you can be pretty much outclassed by their natural requirements no matter what you have for a tank.

 

Doesn't mean they can't be kept in a tank.

 

It just means that it's that much more important to be able to account for and reduce the stress levels of those fish in other ways.

[Tamberav]

I was more thinking of Paul's large tank and his ozone or oxydator or whatever and his diatom filter he uses sometimes and how large it is with 100 percent live rock is far from my tank.

 

Stress makes anything get sick easier. I don't think anyone would dissagree.

 

I work in the hospital and the holidays are very busy...people get all stressed and do too much and end up aggravating their COPD or catch pneumonia...ECT. Some come every year right around Thanksgiving and Christmas like clockwork.

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

20 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

I was more thinking of Paul's large tank and his ozone or oxydator or whatever and his diatom filter he uses sometimes and how large it is with 100 percent live rock is far from my tank.

 

Stress makes anything get sick easier. I don't think anyone would dissagree.

 

I work in the hospital and the holidays are very busy...people get all stressed and do too much and end up aggravating their COPD or catch pneumonia...ECT. Some come every year right around Thanksgiving and Christmas like clockwork.

Paul B made his own rock, if you can believe it.    (Don't mind saying I'm a fan.  Even have his book.)

 

He has the advantage over a lot of us by having easy access to the ocean though:  He supplements his tank with FRESH COLLECTED marine sediments and associated critters pretty regularly....and without quarantining it.....aaaaaggghh, run! run for the chopper!  (tell me if you get the reference) 

 

One could argue pretty well that he or anyone with similar local geography doesn't really need live rock....live rock is really for us folks without that access.

 

[Tamberav]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

Paul B made his own rock, if you can believe it.    (Don't mind saying I'm a fan.  Even have his book.)

 

He has the advantage over a lot of us by having easy access to the ocean though:  He supplements his tank with FRESH COLLECTED marine sediments and associated critters pretty regularly....and without quarantining it.....aaaaaggghh, run! run for the chopper!  (tell me if you get the reference) 

 

One could argue pretty well that he or anyone with similar local geography doesn't really need live rock....live rock is really for us folks without that access.

 

 

His rock is probably more live at this point than mine 😉