My NIGHTMARE!

[burtbollinger]

54 minutes ago, Oldsalt01 said:

No. I'm not gauging the tank health on "Dick", but at least it's open again. But here's the numbers:

W: 14%

V: 20%

R:0

G:0

DB: 33%

RB: 33%

UV: 60%

I've got the red and green at 0 as I've read those wavelengths encourage nuisance algae, and I already have enough of that, lol. Right now the hydra's 6" above water line. I have no idea what my parents or lux values are at the tank bottom.

not an expert with the hydra, but what is that UV so high vs the blues?  I wonder if anyone has researched what an overkill of UV does to corals over time.

[RayWhisperer]

It's not true UV. It's just a very purple color. It's similar to the difference you'd see in true actinic vs 03 actinic in old VHO, or PC bulbs.

 

not going to question any of the advice given on combating the algae issues, as all of it was sound. However, on your first post you mentioned low alk. Yet, you never posted a number (unless I missed it.) Zoas are often the first corals to succumb to low alk, IME. And they just kind of melt away. You also seem to be relying on water changes to replace elements. This can work for a time. However, as corals grow, or you add more, more is used. This means larger volume water changes are needed to replace lager amounts of lost elements. It pretty quickly becomes more cost effective to dose 2 part, or use kalk for top off. This is something to consider once you've fixed your algae issue, whichever route you go.

[Oldsalt01]

8 hours ago, RayWhisperer said:

It's not true UV. It's just a very purple color. It's similar to the difference you'd see in true actinic vs 03 actinic in old VHO, or PC bulbs.

 

not going to question any of the advice given on combating the algae issues, as all of it was sound. However, on your first post you mentioned low alk. Yet, you never posted a number (unless I missed it.) Zoas are often the first corals to succumb to low alk, IME. And they just kind of melt away. You also seem to be relying on water changes to replace elements. This can work for a time. However, as corals grow, or you add more, more is used. This means larger volume water changes are needed to replace lager amounts of lost elements. It pretty quickly becomes more cost effective to dose 2 part, or use kalk for top off. This is something to consider once you've fixed your algae issue, whichever route you go.

I haven't checked alk lately as I've been preoccupied with Irma recovery, BA issues, and working. Previously, I was 2-part dosing every other day for alk and Calcium. I was advised the Coralline could be what's depleting the Alk/Calcium as I have no other Calcium utilizing organisms other than 2 Trochus. The odd part of this is that the Red People Eaters are doing better since I stopped testing/dosing. Reefing!!!!

[RayWhisperer]

You were advised incorrectly. All corals utilize it. Coralline would consume mag as quick, or quicker than alk. Yet your mag is fine. Being that it's kinda late to go back and find out, I suspect you may have been overdosing 2 part. That would certainly precipitate cal and alk, causing one, or both to read low.

[Oldsalt01]

The more I learn, the more confused I become. 

[RayWhisperer]

Lol. 

You speak truth.

[Oldsalt01]

2 hours ago, RayWhisperer said:

You were advised incorrectly. All corals utilize it. Coralline would consume mag as quick, or quicker than alk. Yet your mag is fine. Being that it's kinda late to go back and find out, I suspect you may have been overdosing 2 part. That would certainly precipitate cal and alk, causing one, or both to read low.

So my Toadstool's also up-taking alk/calcium also? I feel like I'm getting dumber the older I get. Gonna run a full test tonight on ca, po4, nitrate, alk, Phosphates to get a real time picture of the tank chemistry. Due to a week away, the hurricane, etc I haven't done a water change in 2 weeks. I'm probably going to tear down the tank and sterilize it, swap out the rock, and go back to a sand bottom this weekend. The fish are not going to be happy. I'm also considering giving my hermits and Mithrax to my LFS, and adding a couple of more Trochus and some Cerith's. Maybe a couple of Nassarius too, or should I wait until the sand matures a bit?

[seabass]

"Calcium and alkalinity are supplied to reef aquaria in order to balance the losses caused by the formation of calcium carbonate. This formation takes place in hard corals to form their skeletons, and in other internal structures such as spicules in certain soft corals. It also takes place in a wide range of other organisms, ranging from coralline algae to snails to clams." - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/

 

51 minutes ago, Oldsalt01 said:

Maybe a couple of Nassarius too, or should I wait until the sand matures a bit?

The Nassarius snails will eat any left over food, so no need to let it mature.   On the other hand, the Trochus snails won't have any algae to eat right away.

[Oldsalt01]

59 minutes ago, seabass said:

"Calcium and alkalinity are supplied to reef aquaria in order to balance the losses caused by the formation of calcium carbonate. This formation takes place in hard corals to form their skeletons, and in other internal structures such as spicules in certain soft corals. It also takes place in a wide range of other organisms, ranging from coralline algae to snails to clams." - http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/

 

The Nassarius snails will eat any left over food, so no need to let it mature.   On the other hand, the Trochus snails won't have any algae to eat right away.

Actually, the rock I'm getting has been cycled and does have some algae on it. And I WILL be inspecting for hitchhikers and BA before it goes in the tank. There are also some small mushrooms, some Coralline, and some sponges. I'm really hoping to avoid an ammonia spike, but this rock looks pretty good, so things should be OK.

[Oldsalt01]

My option is to move the two algae established rocks from my QT into the display to ensure the Trochus have grazing ground. It's never had chemicals in there and there's some nice 'pods moving around on it, so I may decide to do that.

[RayWhisperer]

Yes, leathers have what's called spicules(spelling?) which are basically tiny shards of calcium carbonate that give the coral something akin to a skeleton. Next time you frag your leather, grab hold of it where you've cut it and you'll feel them for yourself.

 

Edit. Never mind, seabass already answered.

[Oldsalt01]

NIGHTMARE Update: Well, it's done. It took 10 hours in total, including running to my LFS to swap out base rock. The clowns, blenny, crabs, snails, Red People Eaters, and my Toadstool (who is none too happy about being dremel'd off his rock) are in my 5.5 QT for a few days, waiting to see if we have a mini-cycle in the 14g. While I was at the LFS I saw a smallish piece of rock with some nice reddish-purple mushrooms and my guy gave me a great deal on it, on top of swapping my rock with his base for even. My wife is all fired up about the tank, now that we've gone back to a sand bottom and she loves the rock layout. I am adding 1 drop/day of BIO S to help with any mini-cycle we might have. After I tore down the tank, I scrubbed/scraped every bit of algae I could find, filled the tank with freshwater, added 2 cups of vinegar, and ran the whole thing for about an hour, then seriously rinsed and dried the tank, before adding the sand, rock, fresh saltwater. 
Here's hoping I got all the BA spores, but if it does come back, now I know how to handle it. Pics attached. I'll update as we go along.

[Tamberav]

Ah, your LFS base rock is much better than most "base rock" I see. I think it was a fair deal! I think the sand is much nicer looking than bare bottom too.

[Oldsalt01]

It's got some cool "caves" and pass-throughs. I just checked my water as it's been 24 hours since I finished the re-setup. Nitrates "0", Ammonia "0". Didn't bother with the phosphates. Salinity 1.025. How long should i test before re-stocking the main tank? It's a little tight in the 5.5 QT for everybody, although everyone is eating and even the Toadstool opened about 1/2 up tonight. Incidentally, I saw a flatworm in the bag the mushrooms came in, but had already put the frag in the QT (ya, I know. STUPID. But I was so focused on getting the DT back up I never thought to dip the frag before I put it in the QT with everyone else). Anyway, this little flatworm was absolutely transparent, had a round head and TWIN "tails". Something I should be concerned with? I looked the frag over really carefully after I saw it and didn't see any others, but then it was so transparent I'm not sure I would see it even if I was looking directly at it. I never had to deal with flatworms before. Well, except in biology class in HS but that was a LOOOOONG time ago. 

[seabass]

1 hour ago, Oldsalt01 said:

How long should i test before re-stocking the main tank? It's a little tight in the 5.5 QT for everybody...

If everything still looks good in a couple of days, I'd probably transfer the blenny.  Then after a few more days (if ammonia is still undetectable) I'd transfer the clowns.  As long as your corals are in good shape and algae free, you could transfer them whenever you want.

[Lula_Mae]

2 hours ago, Oldsalt01 said:

It's got some cool "caves" and pass-throughs. I just checked my water as it's been 24 hours since I finished the re-setup. Nitrates "0", Ammonia "0". Didn't bother with the phosphates. Salinity 1.025. How long should i test before re-stocking the main tank? It's a little tight in the 5.5 QT for everybody, although everyone is eating and even the Toadstool opened about 1/2 up tonight. Incidentally, I saw a flatworm in the bag the mushrooms came in, but had already put the frag in the QT (ya, I know. STUPID. But I was so focused on getting the DT back up I never thought to dip the frag before I put it in the QT with everyone else). Anyway, this little flatworm was absolutely transparent, had a round head and TWIN "tails". Something I should be concerned with? I looked the frag over really carefully after I saw it and didn't see any others, but then it was so transparent I'm not sure I would see it even if I was looking directly at it. I never had to deal with flatworms before. Well, except in biology class in HS but that was a LOOOOONG time ago. 

Maybe just dip everything as you re-add to the main tank?

[Oldsalt01]

10 hours ago, Lula_Mae said:

Maybe just dip everything as you re-add to the main tank?

My thoughts exactly. Do you think Seachem Reef Dip will suffice or should I go with heavier guns like Bayer or Flatworm Ex? I'm a bit upset about not thinking to dip, because I am a firm believer in QT and dipping, having lost an entire system and several hundred dollars in fish years ago (so long ago a Percula cost about $4.99) because I violated my QT isolation with a little Butterfly who brought in Brook and wiped me out! Should I be "feeding" the DT to maintain the bacteria? I feel as though adding the Bio S should be sufficient to establish solid bacterial colonies in the rock and elsewhere. Opinions????

[Tamberav]

I would not feed the DT. The rocks looks healthy and should have a bacteria load and it won't starve out.

 

I would dip for pests but you also risk bringing bubble algae spores in without a peroxide/tank water dip as well. I know zoa's/pallys can handle it but not sure about a leather. If the leather is not attached to rock, maybe a good swish in clean salt water to dry and dislodge any possible spores.

[Oldsalt01]

Got it. What ratio of H2O2/water should I use? The last thing I need is re-introducing BA into the new setup!!! BTW, I LOVE your 22g. A great set up. The cat obviously loves it too. What a cutie she is. Thanks for the feedback.

[seabass]

As a prophalatic dip, I'd probably try making a gallon of saltwater using 3 quarts of freshwater and 1 quart of 3% hydrogen peroxide.  I feel that many of the problems associated with peroxide dips are due to osmotic shock.  By making saltwater with a peroxide and RO/DI water, you will avoid subjecting the coral to osmotic shock.  However, like Tamberav, I haven't personally tried dipping a leather in a saltwater peroxide solution.

 

For the dip, I'd swish the coral around in the solution for about 10 seconds.  Then I'd expose it to the air (to further oxidize) for another 10 seconds.  Finally, I'd rinse the coral in some plain saltwater (swishing it around for about 10 seconds) before transferring it to the clean display.  Note that if the coral isn't connected to a rock, it will likely want to float instead of sink.  You may have to use a net to keep it underwater and/or from floating into an intake.  Eventually it will stop oxidizing and will stop floating.

[Oldsalt01]

4 hours ago, seabass said:

As a prophalatic dip, I'd probably try making a gallon of saltwater using 3 quarts of freshwater and 1 quart of 3% hydrogen peroxide.  I feel that many of the problems associated with peroxide dips are due to osmotic shock.  By making saltwater with a peroxide and RO/DI water, you will avoid subjecting the coral to osmotic shock. 

Making saltwater from H2O2 and RO/DI???? Never heard of that, but I trust ur input so I'm certainly willing to try it. ANYTHING the avoid re-contaminating the new setup. 

[seabass]

1 minute ago, Oldsalt01 said:

Making saltwater from H2O2 and RO/DI???? Never heard of that, but I trust ur input so I'm certainly willing to try it. ANYTHING the avoid re-contaminating the new setup. 

Yeah, I've never heard of anybody else doing or suggesting that either.  However, I have exposed hardy corals and even anemones to this.  Even going so far as using saltwater made with just hydrogen peroxide.  However, it can be hard on what's being dipped, so I'm recommending a weaker solution as a precaution.  I'm guessing at a ratio here; but I think it should be strong enough to deal with spores (I just don't want you to endanger your leather).  Probably easier on your skin too.  You might also notice pods and/or worms letting go into the solution.

[Tamberav]

13 hours ago, Oldsalt01 said:

Got it. What ratio of H2O2/water should I use? The last thing I need is re-introducing BA into the new setup!!! BTW, I LOVE your 22g. A great set up. The cat obviously loves it too. What a cutie she is. Thanks for the feedback.

 

Thankyou  

 

I just use salt water and add enough peroxide just until I see bubbling. I have done 5 min dips before but with spores, I would think you could get away with a much shorter dip. I can't imagine them standing up to peroxide very well.

[Oldsalt01]

8 hours ago, Tamberav said:

 

Thankyou  

 

I just use salt water and add enough peroxide just until I see bubbling. I have done 5 min dips before but with spores, I would think you could get away with a much shorter dip. I can't imagine them standing up to peroxide very well.

I'm still concerned about that little flatworm I saw in the bag the mushroom rock came in. I've been so careful about ensuring I don't bring hitchhikers in (ok, I blew it with the BA, but I was more concerned with flora rather than fauna at the time). Do ya think the H2O2 dip will do any others in or should I go to something stronger? I see no evidence of more of the little buggers, but after the last month I'm more than a little paranoid.

[RayWhisperer]

You said it was transparent. Clear flatworms are harmless. They don't take over. The population will wax and wane, then eventually they'll just be gone. From what I have seen in my own aquariums, the clear ones eat pods.