Keep Calm and Reef On (Fusion 20 Reboot)

[Mariaface]

1 minute ago, markalot said:

 

Not sure PO4 is the issue, but it could be.    Different corals react differently to high PO4, but it's change in PO4 that does the most damage.   There's a fantastic SPS tank on Reef Central that has PO4 as high as .5 before without issues other than color.  If you want to keep harder to grow corals then stop changing the dosing and concentrate on stability, review my 150 thread for how to do it all WRONG.      Remember, it's change these corals don't like, they can grow in poor but steady conditions.  I know people have dropped PO4 faster but if your corals are already sick you want to minimize change.  That's another thing, think of the corals being sick and work on not upsetting them any more. 

 

If you are super concerned about PO4 I would buy PhosphateRx and start dosing 1 drop every other day in front of the skimmer intake (I dose in the first sump chamber, skimmer is in the middle chamber).  Goal should be to get PO4 down to .1 in a month.   Droplets are the only thing that saved me, I now do everything in drops.

 

 

Awww, I have to think of them as sick!?  

 

I do want to get the tank stable, but phosphate and nitrate are the extent of what I can pinpoint right now. Alk, calcium, magnesium, salinity, temp have all been stable and on point, which is probably why the poci hasn't kicked the bucket yet.   

 

I know I dropped these corals into a clean tank and the reason nutrients are so high is that I began to feed them without matching export. So the idea is to figure out my import/export habits first so that I'm not just dumping organics into the tank, and if the corals are still odd after some time I'll know to look elsewhere. Maybe I need iodine/iron/potassium test kits, right?

[markalot]

No, the less kits the better IMO.  If you really want to know then pay for the Triton tests from time to time as most of the hobby kits suck.  Two part contains most of the goodies needed to keep corals healthy, and your PO4 tests might be showing more water column PO4 that will settle out as the new sandbed and rocks absorb it.  Or is it adsorb?  Bah, suck it up.     I think one of the mistakes I made was freaking out about transient PO4 which was dropping anyway, hastening the drop and nuking the tank.  You might try cutting back on food for a few days and seeing if you get a drop.

 

Still, high (reasonable) PO4 does not kill IMO, I have never seen evidence that it does.   What is your KH at?  Higher KH works best with higher PO4, lower KH with lower PO4.   

[Mariaface]

34 minutes ago, markalot said:

No, the less kits the better IMO.  If you really want to know then pay for the Triton tests from time to time as most of the hobby kits suck.  Two part contains most of the goodies needed to keep corals healthy, and your PO4 tests might be showing more water column PO4 that will settle out as the new sandbed and rocks absorb it.  Or is it adsorb?  Bah, suck it up.     I think one of the mistakes I made was freaking out about transient PO4 which was dropping anyway, hastening the drop and nuking the tank.  You might try cutting back on food for a few days and seeing if you get a drop.

 

Still, high (reasonable) PO4 does not kill IMO, I have never seen evidence that it does.   What is your KH at?  Higher KH works best with higher PO4, lower KH with lower PO4.   

 

Good advice! I'll cut back on food like I've been doing in the freshwater tank and see what PO4 does... And maybe start off with a Triton test now to see what the 'Curse of Maria's House' actually is  

 

KH is pretty much 123-126ppm whenever I test it, which is just around 6.9-7dKH. 

[Polarcollision]

On 12/19/2017 at 7:12 AM, Mariaface said:

 

Good advice! I'll cut back on food like I've been doing in the freshwater tank and see what PO4 does... And maybe start off with a Triton test now to see what the 'Curse of Maria's House' actually is  

 

KH is pretty much 123-126ppm whenever I test it, which is just around 6.9-7dKH. 

Hmmm. Since you asked over on my thread, see if you can get your alk a little higher, especially since phosphates are higher. Say somewhere between 8-9. That's been the sweet spot for my acros with phosphates around .35 and nitrates undetectable. Mark is the person who clued me in on the alk swing problem I was having. Now I don't let it swing more than 0.25 dKH. Are you dosing all your alk at once or in boluses throughout the day?

[Mariaface]

9 hours ago, Polarcollision said:

Hmmm. Since you asked over on my thread, see if you can get your alk a little higher, especially since phosphates are higher. Say somewhere between 8-9. That's been the sweet spot for my acros with phosphates around .35 and nitrates undetectable. Mark is the person who clued me in on the alk swing problem I was having. Now I don't let it swing more than 0.25 dKH. Are you dosing all your alk at once or in boluses throughout the day?

 

I'm not even dosing alk; it's not being used..  I'll see if it comes back down after being raised a bit..

[Polarcollision]

13 hours ago, Mariaface said:

 

I'm not even dosing alk; it's not being used..  I'll see if it comes back down after being raised a bit..

Ah. I was in your exact spot a few years ago. It's frustrating! I know. If you don't mind, I'll summarize everything I changed since then. Maybe something will help ya get past this stage.

 

What do you want to come back down? Alk? Phosphates? I assumed alk. In my head, I have fuzzy math of seawater alk at 7.8-8.2. That's what I shoot for, anyways, and it seems to work. That's why I thought maybe you'd see better results if your 7 alk was raised to ~8, rather than lowered.

 

First, what are the mixed parameters of your salt? I was using red sea coral pro which had alk something like 11 or 12 mixed. So every time I did a water change, the acros freaked out over the sudden spike. Now I use red sea salt which mixes to seawater levels.

 

Next, if you want to grow acros, ya gotta dose. It's the only way to keep water stable as they start sucking it out. Some people like to dose by hand--like Sk8n reefer. He hand dosed his 16 gallon beauty for years, I think. On the opposite side of the spectrum is me, who set up a controller and dosing pumps to handle it all.

[Mariaface]

8 hours ago, Polarcollision said:

Ah. I was in your exact spot a few years ago. It's frustrating! I know. If you don't mind, I'll summarize everything I changed since then. Maybe something will help ya get past this stage.

 

What do you want to come back down? Alk? Phosphates? I assumed alk. In my head, I have fuzzy math of seawater alk at 7.8-8.2. That's what I shoot for, anyways, and it seems to work. That's why I thought maybe you'd see better results if your 7 alk was raised to ~8, rather than lowered.

 

First, what are the mixed parameters of your salt? I was using red sea coral pro which had alk something like 11 or 12 mixed. So every time I did a water change, the acros freaked out over the sudden spike. Now I use red sea salt which mixes to seawater levels.

 

Next, if you want to grow acros, ya gotta dose. It's the only way to keep water stable as they start sucking it out. Some people like to dose by hand--like Sk8n reefer. He hand dosed his 16 gallon beauty for years, I think. On the opposite side of the spectrum is me, who set up a controller and dosing pumps to handle it all.

 

I wanted phosphates to come down a bit, but I can definitely try raising alk a bit and monitoring!

 

I'm using Red Sea Salt (I made the same switch), and I do like the parameters it mixes to.

 

I need to set up a controller  I've got the dosing pumps ready, I just need more fine-tuned control over them!

[markalot]

9 hours ago, Polarcollision said:

Ah. I was in your exact spot a few years ago. It's frustrating! I know. If you don't mind, I'll summarize everything I changed since then. Maybe something will help ya get past this stage.

 

What do you want to come back down? Alk? Phosphates? I assumed alk. In my head, I have fuzzy math of seawater alk at 7.8-8.2. That's what I shoot for, anyways, and it seems to work. That's why I thought maybe you'd see better results if your 7 alk was raised to ~8, rather than lowered.

 

First, what are the mixed parameters of your salt? I was using red sea coral pro which had alk something like 11 or 12 mixed. So every time I did a water change, the acros freaked out over the sudden spike. Now I use red sea salt which mixes to seawater levels.

 

Next, if you want to grow acros, ya gotta dose. It's the only way to keep water stable as they start sucking it out. Some people like to dose by hand--like Sk8n reefer. He hand dosed his 16 gallon beauty for years, I think. On the opposite side of the spectrum is me, who set up a controller and dosing pumps to handle it all.

 

Seawater is 6.7ish, crazy low compared to what we were all taught is normal.     I have the hardest time keeping my big tank near 7, I will get it there and then a month later it's down to 6.5 or sometimes lower.  This has taught me that stable and sometimes low will work as long as it's not extreme.

 

I hand dose my 40 and can't keep acros in it, they brown out.  Might be the leather coral, might be the param swings, not sure.  All I know is once I banished the acros life was good, but I'm itching to add some.  I do not want to risk introducing pests to my big tank so my 40, once Dave builds my new light, will be a test ground for some new ones.  This means I have to hook up a doser, which for some reason I am dreading, which is just dumb.  I hate hand dosing ... some kind of equipment hookup phobia.  

[Polarcollision]

8 hours ago, Mariaface said:

 

I wanted phosphates to come down a bit, but I can definitely try raising alk a bit and monitoring!

 

I'm using Red Sea Salt (I made the same switch), and I do like the parameters it mixes to.

 

I need to set up a controller  I've got the dosing pumps ready, I just need more fine-tuned control over them!

Oh! That makes much more sense. What controller are you getting? I've been using the reefkeeper to control 3 dosing pumps, but I recent;y saw a doser that can handle 8 additives... thinking about upgrading to this depending on triton test results in a few months.

 

7 hours ago, markalot said:

 

Seawater is 6.7ish, crazy low compared to what we were all taught is normal.     I have the hardest time keeping my big tank near 7, I will get it there and then a month later it's down to 6.5 or sometimes lower.  This has taught me that stable and sometimes low will work as long as it's not extreme.

 

I hand dose my 40 and can't keep acros in it, they brown out.  Might be the leather coral, might be the param swings, not sure.  All I know is once I banished the acros life was good, but I'm itching to add some.  I do not want to risk introducing pests to my big tank so my 40, once Dave builds my new light, will be a test ground for some new ones.  This means I have to hook up a doser, which for some reason I am dreading, which is just dumb.  I hate hand dosing ... some kind of equipment hookup phobia.  

So, whenever I'm looking at ocean alkalinity data, it's always linked to pH. Mostly because 96.5% of alkalinity is carbonate which is directly affected by pH. (I always measure pH in my water tests) As pH goes up, alkalinity also goes up, even though nothing has been dosed or diluted. Soooo, this means that we need our pH test results to interpret our alkalinity test results. Here's a handy graph of 35 ppt salinity from advanced aquarist. Blue= current average, green=pre-industrial average:

 

As CO2 saturation goes up, alkalinity measurements fall. I keep this in mind in winter when all the windows are closed and also with the seasonal CO2 variations. I also use preindustrial CO2 levels when deciding on parameters. Most references I've found have ocean pH at 8.2 around reefs. I've found research papers suggesting that ocean pH levels were 8.4 in the not too distant past, one of the reasons I keep my pH somewhere around 8.3 as a happy average. Using the graph above, that equates to 2.75-2.8 meq on our current CO2 blue line, which translates to around 7.8 KH. Convenient because my red sea salt mixes to 7.8-8.2, so minimal swings at the 2-6 month 1/3-1/2 total volume water change, and the extra available bicarbonate helps hard coral grow faster.

 

If pH is kept at 8.2, then seawater alkaliniy would be measured at 2.5 meq/6.3 KH, which speaks to your 6.7 KH suggestion.

 

Interestingly, when my alk dosing containers run out unnoticed, there's not usually any effect on corals until KH reaches 5-ish KH.

[Mariaface]

1 hour ago, Polarcollision said:

Oh! That makes much more sense. What controller are you getting? I've been using the reefkeeper to control 3 dosing pumps, but I recent;y saw a doser that can handle 8 additives... thinking about upgrading to this depending on triton test results in a few months.

 

So, whenever I'm looking at ocean alkalinity data, it's always linked to pH. Mostly because 96.5% of alkalinity is carbonate which is directly affected by pH. (I always measure pH in my water tests) As pH goes up, alkalinity also goes up, even though nothing has been dosed or diluted. Soooo, this means that we need our pH test results to interpret our alkalinity test results. Here's a handy graph of 35 ppt salinity from advanced aquarist. Blue= current average, green=pre-industrial average:

 

As CO2 saturation goes up, alkalinity measurements fall. I keep this in mind in winter when all the windows are closed and also with the seasonal CO2 variations. I also use preindustrial CO2 levels when deciding on parameters. Most references I've found have ocean pH at 8.2 around reefs. I've found research papers suggesting that ocean pH levels were 8.4 in the not too distant past, one of the reasons I keep my pH somewhere around 8.3 as a happy average. Using the graph above, that equates to 2.75-2.8 meq on our current CO2 blue line, which translates to around 7.8 KH. Convenient because my red sea salt mixes to 7.8-8.2, so minimal swings at the 2-6 month 1/3-1/2 total volume water change, and the extra available bicarbonate helps hard coral grow faster.

 

If pH is kept at 8.2, then seawater alkaliniy would be measured at 2.5 meq/6.3 KH, which speaks to your 6.7 KH suggestion.

 

Interestingly, when my alk dosing containers run out unnoticed, there's not usually any effect on corals until KH reaches 5-ish KH.

 

Not sure on a controller yet! I have a Jebao doser sitting in the basement that I used to use (up until the Curse of Maria's House caused a crazy bacterial infection), but it's not at all reliable at low amounts of dosing, so I'll need to find something to hook up the dosers to. I wanted to pick up an Apex in early 2018 so I may dose by hand until then  

 

 

...I should measure pH. I'll bet money this entire house is high on CO2, so even with the skimmer running it may not make up for that. I remember before I had a skimmer I always saw pH at 7.8, too..

[markalot]

APEX for the controller, though it's expensive they are rock solid reliable.  IMO of course.

 

2 hours ago, Polarcollision said:

Oh! That makes much more sense. What controller are you getting? I've been using the reefkeeper to control 3 dosing pumps, but I recent;y saw a doser that can handle 8 additives... thinking about upgrading to this depending on triton test results in a few months.

 

So, whenever I'm looking at ocean alkalinity data, it's always linked to pH. Mostly because 96.5% of alkalinity is carbonate which is directly affected by pH. (I always measure pH in my water tests) As pH goes up, alkalinity also goes up, even though nothing has been dosed or diluted. Soooo, this means that we need our pH test results to interpret our alkalinity test results. Here's a handy graph of 35 ppt salinity from advanced aquarist. Blue= current average, green=pre-industrial average:

 

As CO2 saturation goes up, alkalinity measurements fall. I keep this in mind in winter when all the windows are closed and also with the seasonal CO2 variations. I also use preindustrial CO2 levels when deciding on parameters. Most references I've found have ocean pH at 8.2 around reefs. I've found research papers suggesting that ocean pH levels were 8.4 in the not too distant past, one of the reasons I keep my pH somewhere around 8.3 as a happy average. Using the graph above, that equates to 2.75-2.8 meq on our current CO2 blue line, which translates to around 7.8 KH. Convenient because my red sea salt mixes to 7.8-8.2, so minimal swings at the 2-6 month 1/3-1/2 total volume water change, and the extra available bicarbonate helps hard coral grow faster.

 

If pH is kept at 8.2, then seawater alkaliniy would be measured at 2.5 meq/6.3 KH, which speaks to your 6.7 KH suggestion.

 

Interestingly, when my alk dosing containers run out unnoticed, there's not usually any effect on corals until KH reaches 5-ish KH.

 

That's awesome.  I found a thread with Randy Holmes Farley where someone measured 6.1 KH near Log Island and he said it was normal for that area. 

[Polarcollision]

1 hour ago, Mariaface said:

 

Not sure on a controller yet! I have a Jebao doser sitting in the basement that I used to use (up until the Curse of Maria's House caused a crazy bacterial infection), but it's not at all reliable at low amounts of dosing, so I'll need to find something to hook up the dosers to. I wanted to pick up an Apex in early 2018 so I may dose by hand until then  

 

 

...I should measure pH. I'll bet money this entire house is high on CO2, so even with the skimmer running it may not make up for that. I remember before I had a skimmer I always saw pH at 7.8, too..

Nice! I’ve really liked the reefkeeper over the last 5 years, but now one of the power bars seems to be failing and they’ve both been a little sketchy with low power equipment uncertain outlets. Sooo... I’m thinking of the Apex at some time this year too. That is if the price isn’t too crazy. 

 

We shut our entire house up tight with the first snow and my pH dropped to 7.9. Wow. Cracked a window and it went right back up. Crazy.

 

do you have the Simple Truth brand near you? I just today found low cow lite ice cream. 1/2 c of chocolate flavor has 4g net carbs. So I’m splurging again today! 

[Mariaface]

4 minutes ago, Polarcollision said:

Nice! I’ve really liked the reefkeeper over the last 5 years, but now one of the power bars seems to be failing and they’ve both been a little sketchy with low power equipment uncertain outlets. Sooo... I’m thinking of the Apex at some time this year too. That is if the price isn’t too crazy. 

 

We shut our entire house up tight with the first snow and my pH dropped to 7.9. Wow. Cracked a window and it went right back up. Crazy.

 

do you have the Simple Truth brand near you? I just today found low cow lite ice cream. 1/2 c of chocolate flavor has 4g net carbs. So I’m splurging again today! 

 

I'm also thinking I'll get the Trident once that's out, and stop freaking out about alk... >>

 

Yikes! I do open a window once in a while, but not on a daily basis since winter got here. It's a little much if it's 20F outside

 

I'm not sure, but I did find out about Halo Top; that was nice   

[Polarcollision]

11 minutes ago, markalot said:

APEX for the controller, though it's expensive they are rock solid reliable.  IMO of course.

 

 

That's awesome.  I found a thread with Randy Holmes Farley where someone measured 6.1 KH near Log Island and he said it was normal for that area. 

It always catches me by surprise when low KH numbers are standard, considering typical hobby levels. Check this out for Puget Sound. Also crazy low

 

 

[Mariaface]

Phosphate is as 0.27!

 

Alk is actually at 6.3dKH, so someone started using calcium... Time to test daily and figure out usage. In the meantime, I'll try and bring this up 0.25dKH per day.

 

Thanks for all the advise, @markalot and @Polarcollision!

[Polarcollision]

46 minutes ago, Mariaface said:

Phosphate is as 0.27!

 

Alk is actually at 6.3dKH, so someone started using calcium... Time to test daily and figure out usage. In the meantime, I'll try and bring this up 0.25dKH per day.

 

Thanks for all the advise, @markalot and @Polarcollision!

Yay! Forward progress! I recently found out that my husband was using the syringe reserved for water testing for--get this-- feeding OVA to the mandarin. On the one hand he's engaged and helping! On the other hand, who knows how skewed the PO4 readings have been.

[Mariaface]

44 minutes ago, Polarcollision said:

Yay! Forward progress! I recently found out that my husband was using the syringe reserved for water testing for--get this-- feeding OVA to the mandarin. On the one hand he's engaged and helping! On the other hand, who knows how skewed the PO4 readings have been.

Oh goodness!! The most engagement I’ve seen is my brother filtering RO/DI water for me... For a fee.   

[Polarcollision]

29 minutes ago, Mariaface said:

Oh goodness!! The most engagement I’ve seen is my brother filtering RO/DI water for me... For a fee.   

Does he want his $2 ?

[Mariaface]

2 hours ago, Polarcollision said:

Does he want his $2 ?

Oh, it is a steep $5 per bucket to filter it and lug it up two flights of stairs... 

 

But he's in college and working part time, so I'll allow it  

[StinkyBunny]

Low alk is caused by high CO2. I have CO2 scrubbers on all of my skimmers now and my tanks have never looked better since I added them. Alk, Cal and Mg are more stable as well. Are you using a skimmer on this tank?

[Mariaface]

On 1/6/2018 at 7:59 PM, StinkyBunny said:

Low alk is caused by high CO2. I have CO2 scrubbers on all of my skimmers now and my tanks have never looked better since I added them. Alk, Cal and Mg are more stable as well. Are you using a skimmer on this tank?

 

I do have a skimmer, but the house is closed up tight for winter right now.. Maybe a scrubber would do the tank some good, but maybe the level of CO2 would just burn through it  

[holy carp]

According to this article by Randy Holmes Farley, while CO2 can affect the pH, it will have no effect on Alkalinity.  Not to say CO2 scrubbing might not be otherwise beneficial, but it just won't fix a low Alk problem.

 

 

Alkalinity Facts

There are several facts about total alkalinity that follow directly from the definition. Unfortunately, some of these have been misunderstood by some hobby authors.

One of these facts is termed The Principle of Conservation of Alkalinity by Pankow ("Aquatic Chemistry Concepts", 1991). He shows mathematically that the total alkalinity of a sample CANNOT be changed by adding or subtracting CO₂. Unfortunately, there is an article available on line, which claims otherwise, and encourages people to "lower alkalinity" by adding CO₂ in the form of seltzer water. This is simply incorrect.

Forgetting the math for the moment, it is easy to see how this must be the case. If carbonic acid is added to any aqueous sample with a measurable alkalinity, what can happen?

Well, the carbonic acid can release protons by reversing equations 1 and 2:

(5) H₂CO₃ ==> H⁺ + HCO₃^-

(6) HCO₃^- ==> H⁺ + CO₃^--

These protons can go on to reduce alkalinity by combining with something that is in the sample that provides alkalinity (carbonate, bicarbonate, borate, phosphate, etc). However, for every proton that leaves the carbonic acid and reduces alkalinity, a new bicarbonate or carbonate ion is formed that adds to alkalinity, and the net change in total alkalinity is exactly zero. The pH will change, and the speciation of the things contributing to alkalinity will change, but not the total alkalinity.

This is not true for strong acids, however. If you add hydrochloric, sulfuric or phosphoric acids (or any acid with a pKa lower than the carbonic acid endpoint), there will be a reduction in the alkalinity.

[StinkyBunny]

Well bear's ass, I should have looked for Randy's article, the other one is the one that came up in my Google search for low alk and CO2. Either way, lowering the CO2 can't hurt. My corals look so much better since I started using the scrubbers.

[Mariaface]

... Yeah, that'll do it.

 

[Mariaface]

Hey Maria, do you overfeed your tank?

 

I dunno, do I?

 

 

(the answer is yes; that's how my lab results got there)

 

(but luckily biofuel and phos-E and the cleaned skimmer have my back amIright)