TeenyReef's 10g Fusion - ATO Disaster

[teenyreef]

I've got it on maximum random flow, pretty much pointed towards the sps. I've never felt that the flow is all that strong, but I'm spoiled since I used to have an MP10 in this tank. Or maybe mine has just never worked well. 

[Tamberav]

Looks good. You can't even really tell it's bare bottom with all the corals in there.

 

Bare bottom is sooooo easy! My husband really likes sand though.

 

My poor leopard wrasse....coris wrasse....and Jawfish have no sand atm...I pitched it when I moved and added a small amount in the back for them to sleep in but my mp10 blew the pile away so they are all sleeping laying on top of the glass like zombies.

[Reefjunkye]

3 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Looks good. You can't even really tell it's bare bottom with all the corals in there.

 

Bare bottom is sooooo easy! My husband really likes sand though.

 

My poor leopard wrasse....coris wrasse....and Jawfish have no sand atm...I pitched it when I moved and added a small amount in the back for them to sleep in but my mp10 blew the pile away so they are all sleeping laying on top of the glass like zombies.

hahaha, I used to have a blue spot jawfish (beautiful fish) I cant imagine him without a sandbed lol

[Tamberav]

6 minutes ago, sean86114 said:

hahaha, I used to have a blue spot jawfish (beautiful fish) I cant imagine him without a sandbed lol

He will have a sandbed again when I move him to the 80. He doesn't seem any worse for wear and sleeps under a rock but I do like watching them burrow as that is part of their charm.

 

Honestly though if it wasn't for my husband I wouldn't have sand in the 80....

 

 

[Reefjunkye]

haha, I am doing a barebottom for the first time. so far I am liking it, I will like to fill up my bottom with rfa. that will be cool isnt? I used to have rfa on sand bed but bb should look better... I will have to save up to buy them back. Sad that I had a crash during my move to my apartment... 

 

 

[Reefjunkye]

Disclaimer: I know I know... I have a trigger in my reef. So what?! Lol he’s 100% reef safe ONLY if you feed him a lot lol 

[second_decimal]

Hi.. so I’m trying to wrap my head around the ATI elements dosing. You seem to jump around a little on 3 part and 2 part. I cannot for the life of me find the 500ml solutions of The elements pro. All I encounter is 1000ml  but that seems like an awful lot for a 10g tank. Somewhere along my reading i came across that you where dosing 3 part but combining some parts to make it 2 part again (maybe that was the seachem from the beginning?)  Searching revealed only fragmented information. At this point I’m just trying to See if I can get by with a 4 head dosing unit.

My plan is Red Sea Pro salt on

(2 pumps) Automated Water Changes (2g per week)

(2 pumps) ATI Elements Pro 

 

I also saw a maintenance schedule etc. for the 10g (not from the beginning of the thread) but that is mia as well somehow.  Can you be awesome and elaborate just a bit for the sake of people who aspire to have a tank like that one day?

 

tanks and happy reefing

[teenyreef]

On 11/12/2019 at 11:49 PM, second_decimal said:

Hi.. so I’m trying to wrap my head around the ATI elements dosing. You seem to jump around a little on 3 part and 2 part. I cannot for the life of me find the 500ml solutions of The elements pro. All I encounter is 1000ml  but that seems like an awful lot for a 10g tank. Somewhere along my reading i came across that you where dosing 3 part but combining some parts to make it 2 part again (maybe that was the seachem from the beginning?)  Searching revealed only fragmented information. At this point I’m just trying to See if I can get by with a 4 head dosing unit.

My plan is Red Sea Pro salt on

(2 pumps) Automated Water Changes (2g per week)

(2 pumps) ATI Elements Pro 

 

I also saw a maintenance schedule etc. for the 10g (not from the beginning of the thread) but that is mia as well somehow.  Can you be awesome and elaborate just a bit for the sake of people who aspire to have a tank like that one day?

 

tanks and happy reefing

All good questions, and I see how the dosing can be confusing. Let's see...

 

ATI Elements Pro is complete dosing package (alk, calcium, magnesium, and trace elements) that comes in two bottles. Typical two-part is only alkalinity and calcium, with magnesium provided in a third doser. But ATI combines it all in two bottles through some kind of proprietary chemical magic. 

 

Regarding bottle size, they used to offer a concentrated dosing solution that you had to mix up in a bucket. Big pain in the butt. Now they sell it premixed in larger bottles. That's why you can't find the small bottles any more. And yes, a pair of bottles will last for years for a 10g tank. I use mine for my 40g and 30g tanks as well, so one set of bottles lasts about six months for all three tanks.

 

One thought on salt - Red Sea Coral Pro is most useful for reefers that don't dose. The idea is that the salt mixes with levels higher than you are targeting, and doing regular water changes with elevated levels in the new water allows you to bring your parameters back up with each water change without dosing, or at least with minimal dosing. Of course, you can target the higher levels that RSCP gives you from the start, and dose to keep things at that level, but most folks keeping sps don't seem to recommend levels that high. 

 

For me, I shoot for alkalinity between 7 and 8 and try to keep it as stable as possible. There are a number of reasons why, and if you do some searches you'll find a lot of explanations from folks much smarter than me. But my main reason is that inevitably my alkalinity will go through a sudden change (it's happened many times for many reasons). And it seems that sudden swings around the lower end of the range are less harmful than if they occur at the higher end of the range. In other words, you have more room to drop on the lower end of the scale, and less room to rise on the upper end of the scale before bad things happen.

 

So I use Red Sea Blue Bucket, which usually mixes up around 7.5 to 8.5 alk, and that way when I do a water change, my alkalinity doesn't change much.

 

As far as maintenance goes, I've really simplified a lot over the years. I'll check around at what's already posted and post an update later.

[kimberbee]

30 minutes ago, teenyreef said:

All But ATI combines it all in two bottles through some kind of proprietary chemical magic. 

🤣

[second_decimal]

Thank you for the lengthy reply. The has been some concern lurking in the back of my mind about overdoing it with AWC along with dosing ATI. I’m still cycling so I have time to ponder these things but either way, I may just dilute (initial guess would be 4:1 or so), slow down dosing the elements solution or slow down the AWC to find some kind of balance. I suspect the ATI part is more essential as the nutrients in the water changes simply because.. well it’s just a hunch based on the chemical magic. While the water changes also export nitrates and other contaminates . Makes me wonder if the RODI logic could apply here (strip the water of everything, add salt just for specific gravity requirements and add dosing to control all other elements). Of course, my 2 gallon bucket of RSCP and add an additional 2 liters of dosing solution on my 10g nano will take me, as you said, years to burn through 🙄😂. Tank you for sharing your journey and the experience gained. 
 

 

[teenyreef]

21 hours ago, second_decimal said:

Thank you for the lengthy reply. The has been some concern lurking in the back of my mind about overdoing it with AWC along with dosing ATI. I’m still cycling so I have time to ponder these things but either way, I may just dilute (initial guess would be 4:1 or so), slow down dosing the elements solution or slow down the AWC to find some kind of balance. I suspect the ATI part is more essential as the nutrients in the water changes simply because.. well it’s just a hunch based on the chemical magic. While the water changes also export nitrates and other contaminates . Makes me wonder if the RODI logic could apply here (strip the water of everything, add salt just for specific gravity requirements and add dosing to control all other elements). Of course, my 2 gallon bucket of RSCP and add an additional 2 liters of dosing solution on my 10g nano will take me, as you said, years to burn through 🙄😂. Tank you for sharing your journey and the experience gained. 
 

 

You make a good point that I overlooked - with AWC you don't get that jump in parameters due to a weekly water change. So you really just need a little bit of dosing to replace the gradual loss of elements due to not doing 100% water changes. And if you use RSCP but target parameters lower than the RSCP levels, you might never need to dose at all, at least not for weeks or months at a time.

 

I've never considered doing AWC so I've never researched how AWC people handle dosing. Looking forward to hearing how it works for you!

 

Btw, I couldn't find my maintenance routine either, so here it is 

Weekly: 2-4g water change depending on how much water I have made up at the time. Siphon detritus off the bottom. Refill the 2g ATO container. Sometimes I drain the water from the back chambers instead of the display chamber.

Monthly: run 1 tbsp carbon for 5-7 days (or longer if I forget about it).

As needed, usually every 4-5 days: change filter floss and empty skimmer cup, scrape glass.

Clean/vinegar soak pumps every 6-12 months.

Refill dosing containers every 3-6 months as needed.

Check alkalinity weekly, other parameters every 1-3 months unless something doesn't look right.

 

I used to check parameters much more often (daily for alk, weekly for everything else). But the tank is stable now and doesn't need constant checking.

[mitten_reef]

On 11/12/2019 at 11:49 PM, second_decimal said:

Hi.. so I’m trying to wrap my head around the ATI elements dosing. You seem to jump around a little on 3 part and 2 part. I cannot for the life of me find the 500ml solutions of The elements pro. All I encounter is 1000ml  but that seems like an awful lot for a 10g tank. Somewhere along my reading i came across that you where dosing 3 part but combining some parts to make it 2 part again (maybe that was the seachem from the beginning?)  Searching revealed only fragmented information. At this point I’m just trying to See if I can get by with a 4 head dosing unit.

My plan is Red Sea Pro salt on

(2 pumps) Automated Water Changes (2g per week)

(2 pumps) ATI Elements Pro 

 

I also saw a maintenance schedule etc. for the 10g (not from the beginning of the thread) but that is mia as well somehow.  Can you be awesome and elaborate just a bit for the sake of people who aspire to have a tank like that one day?

 

tanks and happy reefing

in order to use a simple 4-head doser to do AWC, i'd think you'll also need a controllable ATO.

sequence would be: deactivate ATO, turn on pump A to draw water out for specified time, turn on pump B for specified time, A & B must be calibrated as close as possible to each other so that the salinity will not be affected, re-activate ATO once the refill is done.

Does that sound about right?  

 

[second_decimal]

That sounds pretty complicated and I had not considered ATO. I figured dosing fresh SW in small increments (raising water level ATO not activated) and taking out same amount right afterwards (back to original water level no ATO activated) repeat several times per day. ATO should kick in whenever water level drops. Am I missing something? The skimmer function might be affected by water level changes but such small incremental changes should be negligible. Also, skimmer sits in middle compartment of AIO and has a constant water level. 

[mitten_reef]

1 hour ago, second_decimal said:

That sounds pretty complicated and I had not considered ATO. I figured dosing fresh SW in small increments (raising water level ATO not activated) and taking out same amount right afterwards (back to original water level no ATO activated) repeat several times per day. ATO should kick in whenever water level drops. Am I missing something? The skimmer function might be affected by water level changes but such small incremental changes should be negligible. Also, skimmer sits in middle compartment of AIO and has a constant water level. 

By adding clean water first, you’re not removing as much of the dirty water - giving you less of the dilution effect. By doing so back to back, you might also potentially remove a large portion of your clean water if you add and draw from the same area, as your return pump has not had time to push all that cleaner water into the display. 

 

But it then again, if small daily dilution is all you need, your logic seems like it’d be fine. I was thinking more of how to automate what we normally do for manual water change. 

[second_decimal]

It has occurred to me as well. However since the water change is pretty much continuous and the alternative is taking into consideration The added complexity of ATO , the reduced effectiveness of the water changes is something I was willing to live with. I suppose it’s possible to try and compensate with increased water change volume, but my hunch is that the reduced impact of changing old water that has new water added will only add to a more stable continuous exchange schedule. My main goal is to remove contaminants and “used” old water. My original thought was sort of what teeny had said and I figured that I might be able to get away with no skimmer, not dosing just continuous water changes. aftrr seeing the results of dosing the ATI Elements however and knowing what skimmers do for water quality and aeration I’m am back to some sort of combo. 
 

i should have everything hooked up and ready to start next week so I will keep updating as I go along. 

[mitten_reef]

2 hours ago, second_decimal said:

It has occurred to me as well. However since the water change is pretty much continuous and the alternative is taking into consideration The added complexity of ATO , the reduced effectiveness of the water changes is something I was willing to live with. I suppose it’s possible to try and compensate with increased water change volume, but my hunch is that the reduced impact of changing old water that has new water added will only add to a more stable continuous exchange schedule. My main goal is to remove contaminants and “used” old water. My original thought was sort of what teeny had said and I figured that I might be able to get away with no skimmer, not dosing just continuous water changes. aftrr seeing the results of dosing the ATI Elements however and knowing what skimmers do for water quality and aeration I’m am back to some sort of combo. 
 

i should have everything hooked up and ready to start next week so I will keep updating as I go along. 

Wouldn’t hurt to start the journal with a couple of teaser pics. I’m very interested in following along, please tag me when you start the journal. 

[teenyreef]

4 hours ago, mitten_reef said:

Wouldn’t hurt to start the journal with a couple of teaser pics. I’m very interested in following along, please tag me when you start the journal. 

What he said 

[second_decimal]

I guess I should start a different thread instead of hijacking This 168 page monster and riding the coattails of the very talented teeny... I don’t know how to start a journal so that may take a minute.. 

[Pjanssen]

On 11/16/2019 at 2:32 PM, second_decimal said:

However since the water change is pretty much continuous

Whats the point of continuous water changes? So you will have an endless supply of saltwater being mixed, and "old" tank water being taken out 24/7? How will you ever build up a bio filter and have a mature tank? Also, what happens to all of that water that is probably not really dirty? Maybe I missed something, but I'm just confused as to the benefit of this concept.

[second_decimal]

1 hour ago, Pjanssen said:

Whats the point of continuous water changes? So you will have an endless supply of saltwater being mixed, and "old" tank water being taken out 24/7? How will you ever build up a bio filter and have a mature tank? Also, what happens to all of that water that is probably not really dirty? Maybe I missed something, but I'm just confused as to the benefit of this concept.

Is this a trap? You have tanks so.. you are confused about Water changes in general or just automated water changes? 
 

bio filter is not in the water but the rocks, animals, sand, algae etc. 

“Old” water does not necessarily mean dirty but lacks buffer capacity. Like you can only recycle something so many times before it can’t be recycled anymore. 
Regular water changes supplement all other efforts to maintain a suitable, stable environment for the aquatic animals we keep. While the actual parameters of those environments vary, It is generally accepted that stability is the key component necessary to succeed. AWC reduce shock of introducing a large change into that stable environment.  

i will hook up RODI unit (hopefully once a week or so) to the ATO and the AWC Containers and fill them. Both have auto shut off so will fill to the exact same level each time. I can then add a predetermined amount of salt to get pretty much the same SW mixture each time without having to measure anything at all. 
 

im not saying it’s right, it’s just my lazy way of addressing aquatic husbandry as I understand it. 

[Pjanssen]

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound like I was attacking your method, no trap. Legitimate confusion on my part. I know the bio filter is in the sand and rocks but initially comes from nutrients in the water. I understand the replenishment of calcium alkalinity trace minerals through water changes. Like I said, maybe I missed something in a previous post, but as I read it, I understood it to mean that you would constantly be cycling in new water as well as running a skimmer. You also mentioned dosing. So I'm just confused as to the benefit of replenishing constantly with new water and dosing? Seems very complicated to me, but if that's what works for you then kudos. I am not judging. 

[second_decimal]

Lol.. I was sort of expecting a Colombo moment right before I got taken down. The only real benefit to AWC is that it should prevent swings that are present from larger WC. Originally I had thought I might be able to get away with no skimmer and no dosing just with the AWC. But IMO the skimmer does more than just remove protein from the water column much like waves on ocean shores do more than one thing. Then I saw Teenys tank and dosing seems to be a pretty integral part in bringing out fantastic colors and growth. You're probably right though, it is complex and I’m sure I’m over doing it. Look for further posts about salty tears and Dino Problems in the future on my thread. 

[kimberbee]

2 hours ago, Pjanssen said:

Maybe I missed something, but I'm just confused as to the benefit of this concept.

I think it depends on the definition of "constant water changes"... is water being swapped out continuously literally or is it a gallon every day. 

 

Seems like too much would be a waste of water and salt. You wanna give the corals to utilize what they need from the water otherwise that's like throwing money down the drain. 

 

That being said... if I had more room and money, an auto water change is definitely something I would implement. 

[second_decimal]

On 11/15/2019 at 9:09 PM, teenyreef said:

You make a good point that I overlooked - with AWC you don't get that jump in parameters due to a weekly water change. So you really just need a little bit of dosing to replace the gradual loss of elements due to not doing 100% water changes. And if you use RSCP but target parameters lower than the RSCP levels, you might never need to dose at all, at least not for weeks or months at a time.

 

I've never considered doing AWC so I've never researched how AWC people handle dosing. Looking forward to hearing how it works for you!

 

Btw, I couldn't find my maintenance routine either, so here it is 

Weekly: 2-4g water change depending on how much water I have made up at the time. Siphon detritus off the bottom. Refill the 2g ATO container. Sometimes I drain the water from the back chambers instead of the display chamber.

Monthly: run 1 tbsp carbon for 5-7 days (or longer if I forget about it).

As needed, usually every 4-5 days: change filter floss and empty skimmer cup, scrape glass.

Clean/vinegar soak pumps every 6-12 months.

Refill dosing containers every 3-6 months as needed.

Check alkalinity weekly, other parameters every 1-3 months unless something doesn't look right.

 

I used to check parameters much more often (daily for alk, weekly for everything else). But the tank is stable now and doesn't need constant checking.

Do you not run anything in the first chamber of the AIO 10g? No GFO, Chemipure or whatever in the baskets everyone uses? How about you @mitten_reef? 

[mitten_reef]

2 minutes ago, second_decimal said:

Do you not run anything in the first chamber of the AIO 10g? No GFO, Chemipure or whatever in the baskets everyone uses? How about you @mitten_reef? 

I have filter floss, and maybe two tablespoons of phosguard in a media bag (passive absorption as I'd like to say it, vs an active tumbling reactor)

Right now? 

No GFO - phosguard took care of my excess phosphate  

No skimmer - not much to skim, aeration/oxygenation benefit was there for sure when I tried, but too lazy to bother with cleaning the cup and dialing the foam, etc.  

No carbon - not now anyway, hadn't used it in months.  but have used it from time to time in the past when i noticed "color" in my wastewater (I use white 5G bucket for water, so easy to tell). My wastewater quality has been decent since I cleaned out the back AIO chambers more regularly.  There was a bucket full of cruds in my tank journal somewhere only a few months ago.

No chemipure - but I do have Purigen on hands, again can't remember if I used it at all this year.  

 

To sum it up, I bought a skimmer, a reactor, the big 3 of media (Purigen - N, Phosguard -P, and Carbon).  All of which I thought was necessary to run an acro-heavy tank.  But in the end, I'm barely using anything at all.  But then again, my system has existed since 2016.  even though my base rocks had changed completely (as of this past wknd) since then, the entire system has plenty of time to mature.