Jedi's Science Reef

[Arkayology]

Chloramines maybe?

That's it.

[metrokat]

Just found his posts, yes it was chloramines. His local water treatment plant treats water with chloramines instead of chlorine. Jedibear, you might want to call your water company to check on that.

[Arkayology]

Growth seems to have completely stopped. dKH rose to 9. It had been between 6 and 7 with the same dose so I can only surmise that things stopped absorbing it. So that's fun. PE on some colonies sucks.

 

I checked for red bugs, negative on that.

 

Oh and I have cyano on the sand and some rocks in addition to the brown algae growing on random acropora, LPS and m. digitata tips.

 

I'm going to just blame the yummy phosphate salt. I have no other clue. The new salt arrives tomorrow. I'll start changing 10g at a time as often as I can starting tomorrow night. If I can accomplish 3-4 changes a week I'll be happy.

 

My nano has cyano too, interesting. What's more interesting, I have...well had a softball sized purple stylophora colony in there that I grew out from a frag off my big tank colony. It's dumping all its flesh now. I'm going to put it in the trash tonight. Only grew it out from a 1" frag to a softball over two years.

 

The common thread between tanks is the water, and thus, the salt. It must be tainted. What else could it be? RO/DI output is 0. I changed the sediment and carbon stages the other day too.

swinging params?

[jedimaster1138]

To the best of my knowledge, and a thread about this on Manhattan Reefs, chloramine is not used in the NYC water supply.

 

Good idea though. heh

 

I'm going to check with my super tomorrow. It's completely possible that they are treating the water in the building with something, but I doubt it. He's a smart guy, so i'll double check.

[vlangel]

I've been kind of following your thread for a while now. I felt very bad that you are going through this for such a long time. I never jumped in because I didn't know what could be plaguing your tank. I did however want to add that my water municipality just added chloramines to our tap water about 3-4 months ago. I wouldn't have noticed but an aunt who lives nearby read it in her bill that they were getting ready to add it. I now use a conditioner strictly to remove them and so far so good. Anyway I hope the tank turns around for you. I applaud your tenacity for hanging in there.

[jedimaster1138]

I've been kind of following your thread for a while now. I felt very bad that you are going through this for such a long time. I never jumped in because I didn't know what could be plaguing your tank. I did however want to add that my water municipality just added chloramines to our tap water about 3-4 months ago. I wouldn't have noticed but an aunt who lives nearby read it in her bill that they were getting ready to add it. I now use a conditioner strictly to remove them and so far so good. Anyway I hope the tank turns around for you. I applaud your tenacity for hanging in there.

 

Thanks for the support, I appreciate it. Yeah I've never been one to give up very easily...

 

One of the good things about living in NYC is that if DEP did add chloramines to the water, we'd all know it. Besides it probably making the news, there's a pretty big NYC Reef Club, so it would be out there. That being said, it's still completely possible that my building is doing something. It's a 19 story building with a big water tower, so who knows. I couldn't find my super today, he was neck deep in a boiler change over so, there's that. Wednesday, I hope.

 

I got the new salt today. I'm going to let it mix over night, mostly because I'm too tired to do a wc right now - sleep is imminent. It appears to have mixed up crystal clear though, which is nice.

[jedimaster1138]

Who wants an update?

 

I did the first of what is hopefully going to be every 2 days or so 10g water changes with hw-Marinemix Reefer salt.

 

Tri-color valida colony that survived a red bugs assault as well as the browning tips crash of the summer is now STN-ing from the bottom up. Judging by the speed, it won't make it till Sunday.

 

ATL Purple Godzilla that necrosed like a boss in the summer, then grew over the necrosis and showed great PE and color, is now showing necrosis on the base again and growing algae in various other spots.

 

Green Planet...see above about the Godzilla. Pretty much the same thing.

 

JF Mandarin Orange whatever M. Setosa. One of the biggest colonies I have. Was beat to hell in the summer during the crash. Recovered, healed all the weird tips, PE back... is now back to showing random bits of dead flesh.

 

Forest Fire Digitata. Lost 90% of this in the big summer crash. What survived grew new flesh and new branches. All those branches are now growing algae.

 

One Acan lord is growing algae now where there used to be flesh.

 

50 polyp collection of Armor of the Gods palythoas appear to have some kind of plague. Several have melted a way, the rest look...off. Stems have shortened dramatically. Figure that one out. (no it's not my Blue Hippo, he seems to be smart enough to only eat zoanthids, not palythoas)

 

There's more but I'm tired of listing it. Honestly I don't know why I keep updating this. I'm probably just bringing you all down. I'm going to bed.

[markalot]

Must be a contaminant, either in the salt or in the water, or maybe in the air.

 

I would certainly switch to IO or Reef Crystals to eliminate the salt from the equation.

[defender.TX]

Must be a contaminant, either in the salt or in the water, or maybe in the air.

 

I would certainly switch to IO or Reef Crystals to eliminate the salt from the equation.

 

I definitely would not. There was a study done a while back [reefkeeping.com] about contaminates in salt mixes and Instant Ocean/Reef Crystals were the absolute worst - they even had high concentrations of copper and aluminum.

 

If you want to rule salt out as a potential problem you need to use Red Sea Coral Pro or KZ Reefer's Best salt. Both are proven to have the right mix of foundation/trace elements and low contaminants.

[jedimasterben]

I definitely would not. There was a study done a while back [reefkeeping.com] about contaminates in salt mixes and Instant Ocean/Reef Crystals were the absolute worst - they even had high concentrations of copper!

 

If you want to rule salt out as a potential problem you need to use Red Sea Coral Pro or KZ Reefer's Best salt. Both are proven to have the right mix of foundation/trace elements and low contaminants.

Uh oh. Better tell all the public aquariums and the thousands upon thousands of reefers that use IO that they should stop using it immediately!

 

Georgia Aquarium

 

 

 

 

Steinhart Aquarium

 

I'll bet their reefs look terrible.

[Veng]

I don't know anything about those two particular aquariums, but in good hobbiest aquariums look much better than public ones...

[defender.TX]

I'm completely aware most public aquariums use Instant Ocean, but if you read the article it's simply a fact that they contain higher levels of contaminants than others. The conclusion of the study was that this is a bad thing, but you could argue given public aquarium success that's not true. The bottom line is that if you're going to switch salt mixes to rule out contaminants being a problem you shouldn't switch to a salt mix proven to have higher contaminants.

[jedimasterben]

I don't know anything about those two particular aquariums, but in good hobbiest aquariums look much better than public ones...

It's also a lot less work for a small hobbiest tank, small enough that one person can concentrate on.

[defender.TX]

It's also a lot less work for a small hobbiest tank, small enough that one person can concentrate on.

 

Yep, and also public aquariums concentrate much more on the health of the organisms than the look of the tank. You won't see pastel blown out SPS in a public aquarium (for example).

[markalot]

I'm completely aware most public aquariums use Instant Ocean, but if you read the article it's simply a fact that they contain higher levels of contaminants than others. The conclusion of the study was that this is a bad thing, but you could argue given public aquarium success that's not true. The bottom line is that if you're going to switch salt mixes to rule out contaminants being a problem you shouldn't switch to a salt mix proven to have higher contaminants.

 

Please stop with this. First off, if this is the study done more than a few years ago testing the viability of Urchin offspring then it has been debunked. The person running the study had a financial interest in one of the salts found to be the best. BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

 

The point here is to use a salt everyone else is using successfully. If RC or IO has a contaminant issue it's going to be obvious because so many use it. This is not about the quality of IO or RC. Safety in numbers, in this case.

 

Let's not shit all over this thread, he's got enough problems as it is.

[defender.TX]

Please stop with this. First off, if this is the study done more than a few years ago testing the viability of Urchin offspring then it has been debunked. The person running the study had a financial interest in one of the salts found to be the best. BUT THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

 

The point here is to use a salt everyone else is using successfully. If RC or IO has a contaminant issue it's going to be obvious because so many use it. This is not about the quality of IO or RC. Safety in numbers, in this case.

 

Let's not shit all over this thread, he's got enough problems as it is.

 

Except that I, and many others, were unable to use IO or RC with success. I totally understand it's anecdotal, but my corals simply would not open up and get polyp extension with Instant Ocean. The second I moved to Red Sea Coral Pro I never had that problem ever again. You will find other stories like that on forums. So, I was trying to be helpful based on my experience and some data I had read. If OP doesn't want the help then he'll ignore it, I don't need you jumping on my case.

 

Also, I would like to point out that in all the time I've been on Nano Reef I have never had anyone take a rude tone with me until I questioned the holy grail of IO/RC and all the sudden everyone is combative. You all can take some time to introspect and figure out why that might be. I'll go ahead and check out of this thread so you can get back to the echo chamber.

[markalot]

Except that I, and many others, were unable to use IO or RC with success. I totally understand it's anecdotal, but my corals simply would not open up and get polyp extension with Instant Ocean. The second I moved to Red Sea Coral Pro I never had that problem ever again. You will find other stories like that on forums. So, I was trying to be helpful based on my experience and some data I had read. If OP doesn't want the help then he'll ignore it, I don't need you jumping on my case.

 

Also, I would like to point out that in all the time I've been on Nano Reef I have never had anyone take a rude tone with me until I questioned the holy grail of IO/RC and all the sudden everyone is combative. You all can take some time to introspect and figure out why that might be. I'll go ahead and check out of this thread so you can get back to the echo chamber.

 

The last thing he should do is use a a salt very high in KH when he's been running low KH. You're trying to be helpful, I think, but for some reason got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? RSCP has elevated KH, calcium, and Magnesium. Were you testing these prior to the switch? Did you end up doing more water changes once switching? Many times making a switch also included changing a practice and it's the practice that improves it.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by holy grail of IO/RC. Again the quality of that salt is not the issue, it's a method of using something a lot of others are using to eliminate a possible problem. There are to many TOTM winners both here and on RC that use IO or IORC to blame the salt. This does not imply there are not better salts.

[jedimasterben]

The word 'better' is debatable, especially when, realistically speaking, pretty much any salt will get you to the same endpoint.

[evan38109]

I have no part in the `Best Salt` holy war, but for what it's worth, I've been having good luck with hw-MarineMix Reefer salt in a tank recovering from pesticide contamination (don't ask).

 

Besides the obvious, hw-MarineMix has one key feature I found essential dealing with a problem tank: it mixes super easily, really fast and clean. If I need to do a quick change, or several in a row, I've found I can prep a batch in under an hour. Even then, it's more about getting the temp up than getting the salt to mix.

 

Totally unrelated: there's no problem with throwing like three heaters in a mixing bucket at a time, right?

[jedimaster1138]

Must be a contaminant, either in the salt or in the water, or maybe in the air.

 

I agree, mostly because...what else could it be? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel here. I'm doing everything everyone else does. I RO/DI the crap out of the water. No one is dumping hairspray in the tank. I'm not cooking meth with Jesse and Mr. White next to the tank. So...

 

I just spoke with my super. He said they don't treat the water in the tower with anything. I didn't think so. He is pretty confused as to why I'm having the issues I'm having. He's kept freshwater tanks in the past and is in general a very smart guy.

 

Then there's the ESV salt and the phosphate controversy. We know for sure that they are shipping salt that's mixing with huge amounts of PO4 - around 0.20 in my case - and that lots of people are seeing the same thing. I also changed to ESV around the time that my problems started. My bigger issue is that perhaps the phosphate level is just the canary in the mine and there's something else wrong with the salt that we or I don't measure. Or maybe it's just PO4 and I'm being a big conspiracy minded (aside, Lee Harvey Oswald didn't fire a round...oh wait that's not conspiracy, that's physics)

 

All I know is I don't want to use the stuff anymore if i'm starting with such a high level of PO4 and fighting an uphill battle.

 

The last thing he should do is use a a salt very high in KH when he's been running low KH.

 

I've been thinking about KH levels recently and how some of the premium salts run with such a high KH out of the box. For starters, I don't like how a lot of the more expensive salts mix to such a high dKH...ie double digits. To me this is a clear case of more is NOT better. Unless you run your reef at such a high level all the time, you're going to shock the system when and if you perform a water change with a bucket of dKH 12 water. There's also the danger of burnt acropora tips and high KH. I'd rather err on the side of low dKH and not have to worry about it creeping up a little when/if there is a swing, than run high normally, have it shift up half a point and hit that "murder your corals" level that seems to exist in the high end of carbonate levels.

 

That's my long winded way of saying I believe there's a bigger margin for error low than there is high.

 

I have no part in the `Best Salt` holy war, but for what it's worth, I've been having good luck with hw-MarineMix Reefer salt in a tank recovering from pesticide contamination (don't ask).

 

Besides the obvious, hw-MarineMix has one key feature I found essential dealing with a problem tank: it mixes super easily, really fast and clean. If I need to do a quick change, or several in a row, I've found I can prep a batch in under an hour. Even then, it's more about getting the temp up than getting the salt to mix.

 

Totally unrelated: there's no problem with throwing like three heaters in a mixing bucket at a time, right?

 

I used IORC for a few years. It worked fine. I switched because I didn't like all the funk in the bottom of the mixing bucket that appeared after 1 or 2 batches. Second, I kept hearing from a lot of people, especially the local club, that ESV was so great. It mixed clean, had "better" levels and left no residue. I thought it could take my corals to a higher level. Now it appears it did drastically more harm than good.

 

I'm going to run with this box of hw-MarineMix for at least the next 150 or so gallons. So far from what I've seen I'll be keeping it beyond then. We'll see in 150 gallons.

[mattyfelts]

im using io/rc with good success. I have no place here though as its all ive ever used but if it did have copper in it would we not see a rapid slaughter of many inverts and corals?

[jedimaster1138]

im using io/rc with good success. I have no place here though as its all ive ever used but if it did have copper in it would we not see a rapid slaughter of many inverts and corals?

 

Pretty much, yeah.

 

A ton of people and aquariums use IORC including LiveAquaria. There's nothing wrong with IORC.

[Tom@HaslettMI]

I'm sorry to hear you're having so much trouble. I must first admit that I have not read this thread all the way through... so perhaps this has already been suggested. Have you check to make sure nothing is corroding in your tank (e.g., pumps and magnets)? I was losing SPS, LPS, and softies and could not figure out why. I ended up setting a new tank and transfering the surviving livestock. While I was taking the old tank down I found several TUNZE magnets with cracked epoxy and rusting magnets. Since moving to the new tank all corals have recovered and are growing again.

 

I hope you get to the bottom of this.

 

Tom

[jedimaster1138]

I'm sorry to hear you're having so much trouble. I must first admit that I have not read this thread all the way through... so perhaps this has already been suggested. Have you check to make sure nothing is corroding in your tank (e.g., pumps and magnets)? I was losing SPS, LPS, and softies and could not figure out why. I ended up setting a new tank and transfering the surviving livestock. While I was taking the old tank down I found several TUNZE magnets with cracked epoxy and rusting magnets. Since moving to the new tank all corals have recovered and are growing again. I hope you get to the bottom of this. Tom

 

Yeah I've explored a lot checking for that. As far as I can tell there's nothing. Sump is all clear of badness. I dismantled and cleaned both my skimmer and pump and return pump recently too. I can't say for sure there's nothing in the DT because it's big and full of stuff, but I can't believe there's anything out of the ordinary in there. The only thing in there that isn't rock or fish or sand is 2 Vortech's, which I mean and inspect every 6 weeks or so.

 

Fun fact - hw-MarineMix seems to have 0.00 PO4. So it has that going for it.

[Begow]

Have you ever considered the possibility that what sucked wasn't the salt, but you?

 

 

Rude.