Jedi's Science Reef

[jedimasterben]

have to get to my mom's house tonight to deal with a clogged basement drain. BARF.

I don't envy you for that! blech!

[jedimaster1138]

I don't envy you for that! blech!

 

It monsoon-ed here for 2 days more or less straight last weekend. There's a drain in the yard, which connects to the down spout from the roof, then goes under the basement slab, runs the length of the house ,and connects to two different basement floor drains and a basement bathroom. At some point during the monsoons, the water hit a blockage somewhere in that run under the slab, and backed up through the basement toilet and flooded the basement. It's FREAKING AWESOME.

 

It would help if the storm drains and the sanitary weren't the same run, which is also a 100 year old drain pipe and probably waaaaay too small a diameter. The giant, old tree that was cut down 4 years ago didn't help with all the roots it put in the clay drain pipe either.

 

I can't wait till I can move her out of that house...it's the Money Pit...

[jedimasterben]

It monsoon-ed here for 2 days more or less straight last weekend. There's a drain in the yard, which connects to the down spout from the roof, then goes under the basement slab, runs the length of the house ,and connects to two different basement floor drains and a basement bathroom. At some point during the monsoons, the water hit a blockage somewhere in that run under the slab, and backed up through the basement toilet and flooded the basement. It's FREAKING AWESOME.

 

It would help if the storm drains and the sanitary weren't the same run, which is also a 100 year old drain pipe and probably waaaaay too small a diameter. The giant, old tree that was cut down 4 years ago didn't help with all the roots it put in the clay drain pipe either.

 

I can't wait till I can move her out of that house...it's the Money Pit...

Good god, it's like one NOPE after another! When she leaves that house it'll be all

[jedimaster1138]

Jedi,

 

in that other thread you mention Kalk and it appears you are dumping a lot in at once. Have you ever tested to see before and after KH when adding Kalk? When I used Kalk it was on a timer and doing small amounts with topoff every 15 minutes.

 

Briefly, before I poof to Brooklyn, regarding dosing...

 

Before I dramatically reduced or turned off everything, I was dosing...

 

Alkalinity. ie BRS 2-part, ie Soda Ash - 8 doses per day, 7 minutes per dose, via BRS 1.1 ml/min pump, so 61.6 ml/day. I confirmed that the pump was running at the advertised amount.

 

Calcium, ie BRS 2-art, ie Calcium Chloride - 8 doses per day,7 minutes per dose, via BRS 1.1 ml/min doser, so 61.6 ml/day, again confirmed that the pump was working correctly (I had at one point been dosing with a busted doser, sigh, but I fixed that a while ago)

 

Kalkwasser - 24 doses per day, at the bottom of every hour. 8 minutes per does with an Avast pump (25 ml/min) so 200 ml / dose over 24 doses, equaling 4800 ml / day of saturated kalkwasser (again, pump rate confirmed) New calcium hydroxide powder is added to the stirrer 2x a week.

[jedimasterben]

Briefly, before I poof to Brooklyn, regarding dosing...

 

Before I dramatically reduced or turned off everything, I was dosing...

 

Alkalinity. ie BRS 2-part, ie Soda Ash - 8 doses per day, 7 minutes per dose, via BRS 1.1 ml/min pump, so 61.6 ml/day. I confirmed that the pump was running at the advertised amount.

 

Calcium, ie BRS 2-art, ie Calcium Chloride - 8 doses per day,7 minutes per dose, via BRS 1.1 ml/min doser, so 61.6 ml/day, again confirmed that the pump was working correctly (I had at one point been dosing with a busted doser, sigh, but I fixed that a while ago)

 

Kalkwasser - 24 doses per day, at the bottom of every hour. 8 minutes per does with an Avast pump (25 ml/min) so 200 ml / dose over 24 doses, equaling 4800 ml / day of saturated kalkwasser (again, pump rate confirmed) New calcium hydroxide powder is added to the stirrer 2x a week.

4.8L of 'normal' saturated solution adds 11ppm calcium and 1.57dKH alkalinity per day if my total volume estimation of 100g is correct. your calcium/alk dosing adds another 6ppm calcium and 0.85dKH alkalinity, for a total contribution of 17ppm cal and 2.42dKH per day. Dem clams, doe!

[metrokat]

lol

 

 

A few points on Prodibio's stuff – maybe this does work. I can’t say it does or doesn’t. There isn’t enough information for me to do this. However… Based on what they say their products are and what they do, I suspect that they aren’t very good products…

 

Here is why –

 

Probiotics rely entirely on the idea that one is missing a certain bacterial strain or type in their ecosystem. Probiotics have been shown in people to help out, if there are actually lapses in your microbiome – i.e. chemotherapy, certain antibiotics, things that kill bacteria indiscriminately and therefore there are no bacteria to compete, so the probiotic has a place to settle and grow. However, if you are otherwise healthy, probiotics don’t do anything because there isn’t any room or nutritional space for the probiotics to take, so most of them are useless. That’s what the data show, at least.

 

Their data sheet for BioDigest says that the vials contain both autotrophic and heterotrophic bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrite, nitrite to nitrate, and nitrate to nitrogen. This last part is likely an outright lie and I’ll get to that in a minute.

 

They list Nitrobacter winogradskyi and Nitrosomonas europaea as 2 of their strains, and those convert nitrite to nitrate. Fine. They say “such as” in terms of establishing biofiltration, so I assume they also have ammonia to nitrite converting bacteria in the vials. However, why I think this is suspect is because you already HAVE an entire biological filtration set up. These guys won’t do any harm, but unless you are severely depleted in your biological filtration, I don’t see them doing any good. The Biotim food source doesn’t have anything that they use anyways – they are chemolithoautotrophs, meaning they don’t use light or any carbon-containing compound for food. They make their own “food” using inorganic molecules – notably ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate. One could argue that the breakdown of the food in the Biotim allows them to then have what they need, and that’s a fair point. But again your tank already has enough of these bacteria. There really isn’t a point with these, except the idea that autotrophs help make food for the heterotrophs, which is the type of bacteria they claim will remove your organic waste. So maybe those bacteria are only there to serve the heterotrophs? Maybe, but that would only apply IN the vial because as soon as you enter it into your tank, the bacteria all disperse and there are plenty of nitrifying bacteria all over your tank.

 

Ok. Here is where I think their product falls apart. They list two different bacteria that are heterotrophs, meaning they consume organic material to live, which are also critical to convert nitrate back to nitrogen – Paracoccus denitrificans and Pseudomonas stutzeri. Their goal here is that you get enough of these growing, they’ll use all the organic waste in your tank, and your nitrates will drop because they will convert it to nitrogen gas! Paracoccus denitrificans and Pseudomonas stutzeri are both soil bacteria, but at least Paracoccus can live in very extreme areas like water, ocean, etc. Paracoccus is used in wastewater treatment to remove organic wastes. All sounds good so far. Now here is the hang up – converting nitrate to nitrogen requires an enzyme called nitrogenase, which is destroyed by the presence of oxygen. Denitrification and subsequent nitrogen fixation are primarily undergone in anoxic conditions (there are a few nitrogenases that are not inhibited by oxygen, but these bacteria don’t have them). In the oceans, this happens DEEP in the sediments, where there is no oxygen. Our tanks are almost entirely oxygenated, unless you have a 6” bed or deeper, really. So there really isn’t any way for the nitrate to be converted to nitrogen, even with the bacteria they provide. That’s why we do water changes – to remove wastes like nitrate that can’t be removed in another way. But, you say, maybe we don’t care about conversion of nitrate to nitrogen, as long as the bacteria there are using our organic waste! Also – side note, while extremely rare, Psuedomonas stutzeri has caused infections in people (Noble and Overman. Diagnostic Microbiological Infectious Disease. 1994).

 

The biggest problem I have comes in the form of Bioptim. You want to get your bacteria to eat the organic crap in your tank – to remove it all. Let me pose this, though… If you were getting ready to start cooking dinner, a nice big meal, and someone came to you and offered you a meal that was just as nice (maybe nicer) and already prepared and ready to eat, would you still do all the work to cook, eat and clean? Or would you take the exceptional, optimized, perfect meal and eat that instead, saving time and effort? Most would take the latter. Bacteria sure as hell will. So you want them to eat all the organic crud in your tank, and yet you are supposed to also use Bioptim to FEED them? I know that the idea is to give them a boost, to get them set up to then use the organic waste, but if the product was doing its job, you shouldn’t need to dose every 15 days… The bacteria die and need to be replaced because A.) the ammonia to nitrate ones have no place to go because they already exist in your tank so the new ones just starve; and B.) the heterotrophs eat the food you give them and then starve.

 

Again, without having ALL of the information, I can’t say 100% that is DOES work or it DOES NOT work, but I can tell you what I hypothesize based on the available information. Save your money.

Totally crushing on you doc.

[metrokat]

I don't know why great discussions aren't getting more input here, I know this isn't RC but I value the opinions and experiences of everybody here so I'm going to revive this top again.

 

 

I knew it would be a long story.

 

I'm not 100% on the phosphate completely inhibiting your corals, it would not have just immediately stopped cold, there would have been a buildup over time and you'd have seen calcification drop as a result (not only in your corals but in your clams, as well, as far as I know they use the same 'method' for calcification). Here is a good presentation by Rich Ross on phosphate. It's long, but it's damned good.

 

 

Benny I'm not sure I agree with Rich Ross without more information. it seems unrealistic that people are running high levels of ANYTHING without presenting all parameters to be seen. Justin Credible with the whole potassium dosing and levels also is a dangerous proposition, one You know exceedingly well given the death it contributed to in your tank. These experts have credible data, but without listing ALL parameters, it's a dangerous prescription.

 

phosphates with nitrates, with alk, with calcium, magnesium, and temperatures -ALL need to be in ratio and balance. This balance can be on the higher side of "normal", lower or NSW levels. The point is not "I run high phosphates", but that I run high phosphates along with a high everything else.

 

There is much much more to running high levels of phosphates than simply running high levels of phosphates.

[jedimaster1138]

I had a long reply typed out a couple days ago, then I hit back on my keyboard and...yeah I said some words out loud to my computer that needed to be bleeped. Ugh it was like a 1000 word reply. lol

 

Short version -

 

Nitrate dropped to zero about a week ago. Phosphate was 0.14 last I tested. I've backed off NOPOX somewhat, but I'm going to do that slowly and gradually, watching phosphate as I go.

 

At this point I'm feeling more and more certain that my "phosphate driven alkalinity swing hypothesis" was correct.

 

Briefly regarding the Rich Ross presentation. Yeah there's more to it for sure. Way more.

 

More soon.

[jedimaster1138]

Tyree something something prostrata that has weathered all the storms of the past few years and grown a bunch now looks sickly and like it's going down. PE is sorely lacking. More red than red with blue/purple highlights. Strange. Appeared to be bullet proof and didn't bat an eyelash when other SPS were dropping like flies.

 

Purple slimer that has never, ever grown appears to be growing a little. Two new branches sprung up in the back, thus it's growing towards the Tunzes. Cute.

 

So I guess change is good. But also not good. This is frustrating.

 

10% water change accomplished last night. Skipped NOPOX but did dose Prodibio bacteria. Turned skimmer on this morning. I normally leave it off for 24 hours after Prodibio.

 

Measurements later tonight after eBay auctions for comic books end. Will be happy measurements if I win. Angry measurements if I don't. I have no idea what an angry measurement is.

[jedimaster1138]

Phosphate: 0.42 [hanna] 0.36-0.64 [red sea wheel]

 

Nitrate: ~4 ppm

 

I repeated those tests because I didn't believe any of them.

 

WTF.

 

I seriously only barely backed off the NOPOX a little last week. That's just ... wtf. Nitrate was 0 last week and phosphate was pushing down near 0.10.

 

Alkalinity: 6.00 dKH

 

I don't know. I'm lost.

[markalot]

Nah, just buried deep in the numbers.

 

Get KH up to 7, stop the nopox and start throwing Phosguard and GFO in there. Clams right, so skip GFO and go for Phosguard. Small bags because it can drop quick and wear out quick, test daily (royal pain in the ass) and once PO4 is down below .1 then start using larger bags. You can buy the 2 liter jugs of phosguard to save some money. The lower you get PO4 the more is going to leach out of wherever it's coming from until it's all gone.

 

While doing this watch nitrates and if they climb above 10 then start dosing a maintenance dose of NOPOX IMO.

 

I think I finally have a handle on my problem, which is similar but not as bad as yours. PO4 must be tackled for us, ignoring folks without PO4 problems who recommend not using so much PO4 removers. We have an unnatural balance of PO4 to nitrate and the solution is either better living through science or restarting with new rock. IMO.

[jedimaster1138]

Other way around - Phosguard murders clams, so it's GFO or nothing.

 

I'm going with nothing. The system has to balance itself out.

 

I just don't understand how both nitrate and phosphate can spike up that much in a few days with such a minor change to the NOPOX dosing. Pretty sure I went from 30 ml / day to something like 28 ml / day.

 

I want to increase KH, but am loathe to do so with that phosphate level the way it is. If there's a complete halt, it's liable to cause another tip fry. If I run GFO, it's liable to cause another tip fry. Mutter.

 

I'm going to put NOPOX on a doser. I should have done it a while ago as was suggested. Maybe I'll spread it out over the 8 peak light hours or the 12 dawn/dusk hours. 1 ml/min for a minute at the bottom of every hour, or something.

[jedimasterben]

I'm going to put NOPOX on a doser. I should have done it a while ago as was suggested. Maybe I'll spread it out over the 8 peak light hours or the 12 dawn/dusk hours. 1 ml/min for a minute at the bottom of every hour, or something.

Why only during the daytime hours? The bacteria doing the dirty work aren't photosynthetic, so they should be active for most of the time

 

Unless you're worried about excess O2 use, but then again, those same bacteria are still going to be in the system for the whole day, so I don't think the oxygen demand would change drastically.

[HarryPotter]

Jedimasters hard at work ^

[jedimaster1138]

Why only during the daytime hours? The bacteria doing the dirty work aren't photosynthetic, so they should be active for most of the time

 

Unless you're worried about excess O2 use, but then again, those same bacteria are still going to be in the system for the whole day, so I don't think the oxygen demand would change drastically.

 

Right. But the NOPOX has a pretty noticeable downward effect on pH. If I dose it after the T5's are out, the pH can tank pretty good. I was late dosing one night and dosed under dusk LED's only with the skimmer off (i don't know why, tha'ts not normal) and it went down to something like 7.70. Heh

 

In theory spreading out 30 ml of that over the 12 hours with some lights on other than moonlight would be adequate. I dunno. 1 ml every hour doesn't hurt either. It's better than my unscientific method of "i'm near the tank, put in a litlte of my pre-measured NOPOX" .

[metrokat]

I'm not sure why anybody chases pH.

[jedimaster1138]

Who said anything about chasing pH? pH can't be allowed to drop much below 7.90. Around 7.80 it directly, and adversely affects calcification through carbonate uptake mechanisms that are not fully understood, but very well documented anecdotal-ly.

[jedimasterben]

Right. But the NOPOX has a pretty noticeable downward effect on pH. If I dose it after the T5's are out, the pH can tank pretty good. I was late dosing one night and dosed under dusk LED's only with the skimmer off (i don't know why, tha'ts not normal) and it went down to something like 7.70. Heh

 

In theory spreading out 30 ml of that over the 12 hours with some lights on other than moonlight would be adequate. I dunno. 1 ml every hour doesn't hurt either. It's better than my unscientific method of "i'm near the tank, put in a litlte of my pre-measured NOPOX" .

Is the pH drop sustained or is it just a local change from it being dosed near your probe?

 

I would give a shot every hour first and observe the change versus the normal daily shift, then go from there

[metrokat]

Who said anything about chasing pH? pH can't be allowed to drop much below 7.90. Around 7.80 it directly, and adversely affects calcification through carbonate uptake mechanisms that are not fully understood, but very well documented anecdotal-ly.

Well that doesn't help your other observation that super high phosphates halts calcification also. So which is it?

[jedimaster1138]

Is the pH drop sustained or is it just a local change from it being dosed near your probe?

 

I would give a shot every hour first and observe the change versus the normal daily shift, then go from there

 

It's a big spike down when I dose the stuff, like 30 seconds to a few minutes later. I dose it in the return chamber, so it gets sucked into the return and blasted up into the DT, the drains back down into the sump, chamber 1, where the pH probe is. Hence the delay. But yeah, dosing it hourly every hour seems like a good start. It will be a tiny amount, 1-2 ml per hour, as opposed to 20 ml at a time sometimes, so this will probably not cause pH spikes down, but may trend it down. We'll see. I'm not too concerned. The more I think about, I like where your head is at, 24 doses sounds like the way to go.

 

PS I just bought another liter.

 

Well that doesn't help your other observation that super high phosphates halts calcification also. So which is it?

 

Lots of things can slow or otherwise halt the calcification process. We all try to avoid them See above...dosing 24 times is probably going to solve much of the pH problem with the NOPOX or vinegar, if I went that way. I think RHF doses vinegar on a schedule, maybe only during daylight hours but it's been a while since I read what he said about that. Same difference really.

 

Now I just have to find time to 1) get in my closet of spare STUFF and find my extra dosing tube stock 2) crawl on my back and attach them to my newly cleaned spare dosing pump. Ugh. Work under the tank.

 

Can't someone come do that for me while I read comic books on the couch?

PS before I started dosing NOPOX my pH hadn't dropped below 8.00 in a year. Kalkwasser + refugium FTW.

[metrokat]

 

PS before I started dosing NOPOX my pH hadn't dropped below 8.00 in a year. Kalkwasser + refugium FTW.

okay so what problems were you having with the bad pH?

[jedimaster1138]

okay so what problems were you having with the bad pH?

Low pH actually precedes the ESV Salt phosphate poisoning, but long story short...

 

Dead fish (especially anthias), dead clams, 0 coral growth, dead coral (rtn/stn, not fried tips) During the bad days of pH problems, my daily swing was something like 7.60 to 8.00 if i was lucky. I didn't see 8 for a long time. It was awesome. Once I got the refugium and the kalkwasser going, pH stopped being an issue and things got way better. Then a few months later I poisoned my reef for nearly a year with Satan's salt.

[cnseekatz]

[jedimaster1138]

Aight the NOPOX is automated. Cross fingers, toes, eyes, tentacles that this helps stabilize things.

[jedimasterben]

The more I think about, I like where your head is at, 24 doses sounds like the way to go.

 

I think RHF doses vinegar on a schedule, maybe only during daylight hours but it's been a while since I read what he said about that. Same difference really.

The dosing was your idea, I just compounded that it was good

 

RHF doses 110mL vinegar daily: http://reef2reef.com/threads/randys-tank-description.172508/#post-2000650 His tank is a 120g with five 44g Brute cans as refugia and sump, so probably somewhere around 220-240g total volume depending on the running level of the cans.