FishBrawler ReefStock goodies

[ajmckay]

Would you still be able to fit everything in the stand if you went with a 20high? That would work best IMO.

 

What I'm trying to do is increase the volume of your return chamber. Think of it like this... Lets say that the typical return pump is 4-5" tall, and it starts sucking in air (noisy!) when the water is 1" above the pump. Now if your water level is a maximum of 8", as set by the baffle from your refugium, then you have essentially 2-3" of "wiggle room". At a 5x12 footprint, 1" is about 0.3 gallons, so even 3" between the pump and the water surface would be significantly less than 1 gallon.

 

I'm not sure what your evap rates are, but I'm guessing they're pretty high in CO since it's typically dry and hot there. Combine that with a lot of open surface area and high flow rates and IMO your ATO will be switching on and off very frequently. If your ATO is out of commission for even 1 day you'll probably be manually topping off to keep the pump going and silent. I have a 4.4 gallon return chamber for my 40b and I live in a humid area. I got sick of my ATO pump turning on/off so often (cheap harbor freight pump though so it's noisy). I'm redesigning my sump right now as I set my tank back up and one focus is to increase the size of the return chamber somehow.

 

If you did a 20 high you could increase the water depth a few inches to 10-12" (put your skimmer on a riser if needed), and double the effective volume of the return chamber and refugium without messing with the baffle spacing at all. But, will it fit in your stand and still be accessable?

 

Edit**

Sorry if I sound a little preachy on this topic... I'm just overly cautious when it comes to stuff like this. So by no means feel like you need to modify your plans at all if you're already confident in a solution. Instead of telling you what I would do, here's a here is a cool link on selecting a return pump based on all sorts of factors (elbows, friction losses, head losses, couplings & ball/gate valves, etc...). It gets a little mathy, but if you step back and take a higher level view it can help you identify the most significant places where gpm is reduced.

 

Near the top is a downloadable excel spreadsheet that is pretty cool. Note that this information is particularly useful for larger setups (where piping runs for much longer lengths and remote sumps are more common)... But in general you can assume that the head loss will be your biggest factor by far, say 50gph per foot of head. a 90 degree bend may lose 5gph, and a coupling, check valve, or ball valve say loses 5gph each also.

 

So a 500gph pump with 4ft of head, 3 90 degree elbows, a check valve, ball valve, and coupling should net you somewhere around 270 gph.

 

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/1/aafeature2

[FishBrawler]

Thanks again for that cool article! My phone cant access it atm so I have to wait til I get home and its gonna be late tonight because my sister is in the hospital from a blood clot in the lung. The inside of the stand is 29x27.5 inches so I could do the 20 gallon high. The only reason why I strayed from that is that a protien skimmer ontop of something would make a lot of vibrations (I think) so that would make things louder. And now thinking about it. If the pump is horizontal to the side, the intake would be faced down and there wouldn't be air being sucked in. This would make 2 90 degree angles, a check valve and 2 45 degree angles. Do you think that would work?

Would you still be able to fit everything in the stand if you went with a 20high? That would work best IMO.

What I'm trying to do is increase the volume of your return chamber. Think of it like this... Lets say that the typical return pump is 4-5" tall, and it starts sucking in air (noisy!) when the water is 1" above the pump. Now if your water level is a maximum of 8", as set by the baffle from your refugium, then you have essentially 2-3" of "wiggle room". At a 5x12 footprint, 1" is about 0.3 gallons, so even 3" between the pump and the water surface would be significantly less than 1 gallon.

I'm not sure what your evap rates are, but I'm guessing they're pretty high in CO since it's typically dry and hot there. Combine that with a lot of open surface area and high flow rates and IMO your ATO will be switching on and off very frequently. If your ATO is out of commission for even 1 day you'll probably be manually topping off to keep the pump going and silent. I have a 4.4 gallon return chamber for my 40b and I live in a humid area. I got sick of my ATO pump turning on/off so often (cheap harbor freight pump though so it's noisy). I'm redesigning my sump right now as I set my tank back up and one focus is to increase the size of the return chamber somehow.

If you did a 20 high you could increase the water depth a few inches to 10-12" (put your skimmer on a riser if needed), and double the effective volume of the return chamber and refugium without messing with the baffle spacing at all. But, will it fit in your stand and still be accessable?

Edit**

Sorry if I sound a little preachy on this topic... I'm just overly cautious when it comes to stuff like this. So by no means feel like you need to modify your plans at all if you're already confident in a solution. Instead of telling you what I would do, here's a here is a cool link on selecting a return pump based on all sorts of factors (elbows, friction losses, head losses, couplings & ball/gate valves, etc...). It gets a little mathy, but if you step back and take a higher level view it can help you identify the most significant places where gpm is reduced.

Near the top is a downloadable excel spreadsheet that is pretty cool. Note that this information is particularly useful for larger setups (where piping runs for much longer lengths and remote sumps are more common)... But in general you can assume that the head loss will be your biggest factor by far, say 50gph per foot of head. a 90 degree bend may lose 5gph, and a coupling, check valve, or ball valve say loses 5gph each also.

So a 500gph pump with 4ft of head, 3 90 degree elbows, a check valve, ball valve, and coupling should net you somewhere around 270 gph. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/1/aafeature2'>http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/1/aafeature2

[ajmckay]

Thanks again for that cool article! My phone cant access it atm so I have to wait til I get home and its gonna be late tonight because my sister is in the hospital from a blood clot in the lung. The inside of the stand is 29x27.5 inches so I could do the 20 gallon high. The only reason why I strayed from that is that a protien skimmer ontop of something would make a lot of vibrations (I think) so that would make things louder. And now thinking about it. If the pump is horizontal to the side, the intake would be faced down and there wouldn't be air being sucked in. This would make 2 90 degree angles, a check valve and 2 45 degree angles. Do you think that would work?

No problem... I hope your sister gets better, a clot in the lung sounds like it would suck pretty hard.

 

Anyways, putting the skimmer on a stand shouldn't cause issues as long as the stand is reasonably stout. I guess I'm saying that it's not uncommon to do. Then again you may not even have to as some in-sump skimmers will work well in 10+ inches of water.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "If the pump is horizontal to the side, the intake would be faced down and there wouldn't be air being sucked in." Are you talking about the return pump or the skimmer pump?

 

The attached picture shows what I'm talking about when I mention the return pump sucking in air... It's annoying, loud, and fills your display with tiny bubbles.

 

Finally, regarding the # of elbows and check valves I think you'll be fine and experience minimal losses.

[FishBrawler]

Hi again!

Just coming back with alil update on what's going on with the tank right now. The sump and pump are going to be decide in the next week and ordered. The rock was going to be order this week, but I ran into complications with ordering since I don't have my own credit card and my dad was with my sister all week in the hospital. I still haven't decided on a pump yet, but what I am thinking right now is that I will order one of the quiet one pumps and get a cheaper powerhead and upgrade to the mp10 maybe for christmas or my birthday.

 

http://www.marinedepot.com/Lifegard_Aquatics_Quiet_One_Pro_Series_Aquarium_Pump_Up_to_500_Gallons_Per_Hour_Submersible_Aquarium_Pumps-Lifegard_Aquatics-RB30000-FIWPSBUF-vi.html

 

This quiet One 3000 looks like it will ahve about 476 gph after the head loss, valves, and turns! That seems just about right. I should have alil extra money to spend on two smaller powerhead and then of course the mp10 plan.

Now for a parting night time picture of my 55 and a Nemo quote.

 

Looks blurry, but my friend Eyram says that its not so here it is anyways lol.

 

[FishBrawler]

You know you are a young teen reefer when the guys at the lfs call you "bud"....

[FishBrawler]

Do you guys think that the neotherm 100 watter would be enough for the tank and sump? It says rated for 28 and I would have like 36ish gallons. What do you think? Better heater choice?

[BoCoMo]

Do you guys think that the neotherm 100 watter would be enough for the tank and sump? It says rated for 28 and I would have like 36ish gallons. What do you think? Better heater choice?

 

I would do two of those

[FishBrawler]

Thats what I was thinking but I cant afford both. I could due maybe one and a cheaper one. Do you think that would work?

[BoCoMo]

If you were in my area I would let you have one. Have you looked on CL for people selling tanks; chances are one of them may have an extra heater they would sell cheap

[FishBrawler]

Thats a possibility too but idk if I want a used heater as they tend to expire. But idk if thats any better than getting a cheapo heater!

[Subsea]

http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-GrowBright-2-Foot-8-Lamp-High-Output-T5-With-Choice-of-Bulbs.aspA most enjoyable read. You have many craftsmen helping you with this project. Enjoy the passion, it is a great hobby. With respect to required flow thru sump, many experts suggest lower flow rates. The logic pushing higher flowrates from sump usually is to benefit circulation rates in main tank. To assist with flow in main tank use reduced flow thru eductors. Thru venturi physics, the flow in tank is amplified so that instead of 300 GPH it would be a total circulation rate between 1200-1500 GPH within the tank with a 300 GPH pump flow rate from the sump to the tank. They are bulky and require good aquascaping to hide. I have used them for years. You need use a higher rated pump to produce the pressure that eductor venturi require.

 

Initially when reading early in your thread, I noted your live stock plan including softies, LPS AND SPS. When mixing corals that have different requirements, you add addittional husbandry maintenance requirements. This usually translates to more work. Mixed gardens in a bb method seems like a double challenge. BB methods require a strict disipline with more work than I care to do. You have also picked the most expensive method to do reefkeeping. With respect to your lights, if you know that Radion is your goal. I applaud your financial restrant to buy a cheaper light. However, do not buy a cheap LED. The two color spectrum are in my opinion very substandard for coral and macro. I operate a 20K maraculture facility. Broad spectrum MH and T5 are by far the coice for maraculture operations. I will provide you a link to look at horticulture T5 fixtures. I purchased a 4' eight bulb T5 fixture with bulbs delivered to my house for $228. My 135G lagoon has never done better. I previously had 300W of LED at a cost of $800. While cost is important to me, results are my main criteria. Until you get hi-end LED equipment, you will not duplicate the many spectrum that are required to properly grow corals. It is for this reason that coral growers use broad spectrum lighting. Most of my facility is natural sunlight. During winter time, I choose MH ligthts to assist with heating greenhouses.

 

You have an impressive new tank thread. It sets high standards. Enjoy this addiction we call reefing.

 

La bonne temps roulee,

Patrick Castille

Mgr, Aquaculture Ranch, LLC

[Subsea]

http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-GrowBright-2-Foot-8-Lamp-High-Output-T5-With-Choice-of-Bulbs.asp

 

This is a powerful 2' eight bulb fixture for less than $200. Combine 6500K with actinics 1:1 and you will have great reef lighting for a fraction of the cost of LED. Yes, hi-quality LED has its benefits. Eventually, some choices are economics.

[FishBrawler]

http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-GrowBright-2-Foot-8-Lamp-High-Output-T5-With-Choice-of-Bulbs.asp

 

This is a powerful 2' eight bulb fixture for less than $200. Combine 6500K with actinics 1:1 and you will have great reef lighting for a fraction of the cost of LED. Yes, hi-quality LED has its benefits. Eventually, some choices are economics.

 

 

http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-GrowBright-2-Foot-8-Lamp-High-Output-T5-With-Choice-of-Bulbs.aspA most enjoyable read. You have many craftsmen helping you with this project. Enjoy the passion, it is a great hobby. With respect to required flow thru sump, many experts suggest lower flow rates. The logic pushing higher flowrates from sump usually is to benefit circulation rates in main tank. To assist with flow in main tank use reduced flow thru eductors. Thru venturi physics, the flow in tank is amplified so that instead of 300 GPH it would be a total circulation rate between 1200-1500 GPH within the tank with a 300 GPH pump flow rate from the sump to the tank. They are bulky and require good aquascaping to hide. I have used them for years. You need use a higher rated pump to produce the pressure that eductor venturi require.

 

Initially when reading early in your thread, I noted your live stock plan including softies, LPS AND SPS. When mixing corals that have different requirements, you add addittional husbandry maintenance requirements. This usually translates to more work. Mixed gardens in a bb method seems like a double challenge. BB methods require a strict disipline with more work than I care to do. You have also picked the most expensive method to do reefkeeping. With respect to your lights, if you know that Radion is your goal. I applaud your financial restrant to buy a cheaper light. However, do not buy a cheap LED. The two color spectrum are in my opinion very substandard for coral and macro. I operate a 20K maraculture facility. Broad spectrum MH and T5 are by far the coice for maraculture operations. I will provide you a link to look at horticulture T5 fixtures. I purchased a 4' eight bulb T5 fixture with bulbs delivered to my house for $228. My 135G lagoon has never done better. I previously had 300W of LED at a cost of $800. While cost is important to me, results are my main criteria. Until you get hi-end LED equipment, you will not duplicate the many spectrum that are required to properly grow corals. It is for this reason that coral growers use broad spectrum lighting. Most of my facility is natural sunlight. During winter time, I choose MH ligthts to assist with heating greenhouses.

 

You have an impressive new tank thread. It sets high standards. Enjoy this addiction we call reefing.

 

La bonne temps roulee,

Patrick Castille

Mgr, Aquaculture Ranch, LLC

Thank you so much for your input! So with this venturi eductor, (I have no clue with what this is, but from the reading I think that I understand the just of it. Correct me if I am wrong, which I probably am.) You pump water up the pipe. I will be using 3/4 inch pvc. It sounds like the pipe narrows down like a funnel and the water is pushed through the funnel and out another reverse funnel. This creates a vacuum that pulls water through while also being pushed??? Now if I haven't screwed up from there, this can be located behind the aquarium attached to the outlet. Right? The part that I am more confused about is that how can you have more water going into the aquarium and have the same flow as your pump plus head loss still in the sump?

 

As far as livestock goes, I know I said that I wanted to have a low maintenance system, but if that means sacrificing the beautiful of different types of corals, then so be the maintenance. My 55 gallon right know is a mixed aquarium and I feel the maintenance is very low. Besides for a small hiccup in the road with a couple of weeks without magnesium.... which through EVERYTHING off, the tank has almost been plug and play with softies, LPS, and SPS. And why do you find bare bottoms a challenge? To me it seem that it is easier to keep detritus off the bottom which prevents old tank syndrome, and helps handle phosphate, nitrate, ammonia and nitrite better making a easier healthier environment Of course I can add sand at some point if I do not like the effects or maintenance.

 

Furthermore, I have decided to go with the 20 gallon high aquarium as my sump and will being have ace hardware cutting glass for me hopefully this weekend if I can convince my dad to take me. I hope to have it all running by reef stock (I think my goals are alil high but we will see). I am interested in incorporating the venturi system, but if I have to sacrifice beauty for the cost of a small powerhead, I'd rather just pay the extra money for the powerhead. I also found and interesting article last night in one of my books that I must have skipped over before but will try to incorporate it into the new refugium.

It basically says that not just the micro fauna that live in the refugium produce food, but that red algae have spores that also produce food for corals. I don't know if this will pose a problem to algae growth in the main tank but from the amount of people that have read algae in their refugiums, I think I will be fine. Thoughs?

[Subsea]

You have discribed a venturi eductor correctly. On the part where water leaves the orfice at a high velocity, the reverse funnel, consider that with opening slots to the tank water. The water that flows thru the orfice is 300GPH. The other 1000GP:H comes from the opening slots in the reverse funnel. Remember that you said that when water accelerates, it creates a vacumn in the immediate area of orfice. This vacumn sucks in the tank water. Thus a combined flowrate in the tank at 1300GPH.

 

With two venturi nozels and one Mag 9, I maintained a 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with a 30 Gal Eco System Mud/macrto filter on the bottom for ten years.

 

Instead of dealing with your concerns about mud filtration on this build thread, may I suggest that you look at my sponsor subforum. Oist many thread topics and questins that you have. You asked about competition between refugium and display macro. Isee no issue if nutrients are sufficient.

 

I know that you are focused on equipment. Until you decide on what is going to live in the tank, you can not properly purchase all of your equipment. I suggest you get involved with the thread on biotypes. Depending on your livestock determines the parameters that you want to maintain. Bright colors is not a proper biotheme. Find a segment of the reef and understand what lives there and why. When you begin thinking in the big picture about these compatiable area of the reef. Without this forethought, I would not be able to maintain tanks for ten years. Skimmerless, no partial water change and heavy feeding.

 

The reason I say your choice is more difficult to maintain is that most modern reefers that embrace this technique also require PLC processes that measure parameters and shut down or alarm as programmed. In addittion they normally have substandard biological filters and rely on hi tech equipment to force the chemistry. At $500 expense for each, I set up two 55G lagoon theme tanks. Everything new except the lights which I bought used T5 fixtures. No skimmers, no kawassa water dosing or trace mineral makeup. I add food and multiple nutrient pathways develope complex food webs. If you do not like biology or nature, then this method may not be for you.

 

In any case, until you know what is going in your display tank it is difficult for me to design a centerfold rock for your tank. When you have some better ideas, I will work with you to develope what you want. I will not run out of rock are macro.

I do not need to be involved in your choices. Look at my website, decide what you want for $100. I will pay tax and transportation. It is yours when you ask for it.

 

La bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

[FishBrawler]

You have discribed a venturi eductor correctly. On the part where water leaves the orfice at a high velocity, the reverse funnel, consider that with opening slots to the tank water. The water that flows thru the orfice is 300GPH. The other 1000GP:H comes from the opening slots in the reverse funnel. Remember that you said that when water accelerates, it creates a vacumn in the immediate area of orfice. This vacumn sucks in the tank water. Thus a combined flowrate in the tank at 1300GPH.

 

With two venturi nozels and one Mag 9, I maintained a 75G Jaubert Plenum on top with a 30 Gal Eco System Mud/macrto filter on the bottom for ten years.

 

Instead of dealing with your concerns about mud filtration on this build thread, may I suggest that you look at my sponsor subforum. Oist many thread topics and questins that you have. You asked about competition between refugium and display macro. Isee no issue if nutrients are sufficient.

 

I know that you are focused on equipment. Until you decide on what is going to live in the tank, you can not properly purchase all of your equipment. I suggest you get involved with the thread on biotypes. Depending on your livestock determines the parameters that you want to maintain. Bright colors is not a proper biotheme. Find a segment of the reef and understand what lives there and why. When you begin thinking in the big picture about these compatiable area of the reef. Without this forethought, I would not be able to maintain tanks for ten years. Skimmerless, no partial water change and heavy feeding.

 

The reason I say your choice is more difficult to maintain is that most modern reefers that embrace this technique also require PLC processes that measure parameters and shut down or alarm as programmed. In addittion they normally have substandard biological filters and rely on hi tech equipment to force the chemistry. At $500 expense for each, I set up two 55G lagoon theme tanks. Everything new except the lights which I bought used T5 fixtures. No skimmers, no kawassa water dosing or trace mineral makeup. I add food and multiple nutrient pathways develope complex food webs. If you do not like biology or nature, then this method may not be for you.

 

In any case, until you know what is going in your display tank it is difficult for me to design a centerfold rock for your tank. When you have some better ideas, I will work with you to develope what you want. I will not run out of rock are macro.

I do not need to be involved in your choices. Look at my website, decide what you want for $100. I will pay tax and transportation. It is yours when you ask for it.

 

La bonne temps roulee,

Patrick

 

Sorry! I have been so busy the past few days!

Well I think I finally understand how it works.

I do not think that I will use this on this current tank as it would ruin the rimless effect, but I think that if I had my next tank predrilled for one, I would totally use it!

 

Also, I wasn't talking about them out competing, but it says that red algae release spores and I was wondering if they were in my refugium, that the spores would seed in the main tank! New thoughts?

 

Furthermore, I do know that it is easiest to due a themed tank, but in this case I want to try and have a mixed reef with softies, Lps, Sps, and clams if possible. The whole filtration thing that you suggested sounds great but I don't have the room. The skimmer is rated for a 60 gallon heavy stocked aquarium which means that should take out alot and I may throw in some carbon and stuff. I have ordered my rock from Marco Rocks already, but as you said, you have macros which I may take a look at, and corals??? (Do you have a list of corals???) I may have a better idea of what I'm looking for after the rock arrives. Thanks again. I can thank you enough.

 

And to end it off, some bambam zoa that I fragged! (Got them at ReefStock last year!)

Sorry its blurry... Those things are SMALL!

[Psychosis]

I skipped reef stock last year, still regret that. I was reading over your build last week and didn't realize you were in Colorado. So far as colorfulZZoa's locally, Elite reef all ways have mohawks in stock, and mind blowing coral has all if the big name brand zoanthids. I all most snagged some Captain Americas from them at a frag swap, but I went for the Acans instead.

 

I'll follow along.

[FishBrawler]

I skipped reef stock last year, still regret that. I was reading over your build last week and didn't realize you were in Colorado. So far as colorfulZZoa's locally, Elite reef all ways have mohawks in stock, and mind blowing coral has all if the big name brand zoanthids. I all most snagged some Captain Americas from them at a frag swap, but I went for the Acans instead.

 

I'll follow along.

Ya! Thanks! I wasnt really into coral when I last visited them so I wasnt really looking at that! ... I know... not into coral?!?!?... oh brother! Ive never heard of mind blowing corals. Maybe ill get my dad to check them out with me today!

[Psychosis]

I think they're more of a basement operation, so you may need to schedule an appointment. I know they have ads on craigslist. Just read that bit about the Red Planet...I think I might need to swing by highlands ranch.

[FishBrawler]

 

I think they're more of a basement operation, so you may need to schedule an appointment. I know they have ads on craigslist. Just read that bit about the Red Planet...I think I might need to swing by highlands ranch.

Ya! It has about an inch of growth this month!

[FishBrawler]

So I have come to a tuff choice. The ledtric fixture is $370 right now. I got round $310. My dad said he would spot me the extra $60. If I buy it, I wont have water or rock in the tank til probably the end of marchish. On the other hand. I could get the pump rock and heater for the same price and start the cycle. If I do this the light will not be on sale anymore and I will have to pay $180 extra. What do you guys think I should do?

[Reefmaster1996]

Take it slow and save 180$ but honestly depending on what type of person you are (DIY type or not) you could probably build your own fixture for a less, talk to jedimasterben he'll know what you should do.

[FishBrawler]

Take it slow and save 180$ but honestly depending on what type of person you are (DIY type or not) you could probably build your own fixture for a less, talk to jedimasterben he'll know what you should do.

I am going to buy the fixure. I dont think that it will be cheaper for all im getting. Four levels of control and ~50 leds and internal timers and the remote. What color should I order it in? What do you think would be the easiest to sell if I didnt like it? Black? White? Silver?

[Reefmaster1996]

You can do all that your self with LEDs that will actually offer a full spectrum that will be worth your money, plus a controller only cost 54.99http://www.boostled.com/product_p/typhon.htm. The website doesn't even state what LEDs they are using and what spectrum they are. Let me get Ben in here to help you.

[jedimasterben]

So you're looking at the LEDtric Inspire? While the fixture has some nice features, I'm not sure how great it will look compared to some of the competition, using cool white 6500k chips. The Reefbreeders Photon16 would be a much better value for you and will give you better color, too. It's $319 shipped. http://reefbreeders.com/it2040.html

 

You can also customize the color mix, as well, for an extra $10. You can remove six whites and the two green chips and add another eight violets, which will get better growth.

 

Of course, DIY is preferable, but not everyone wants to do that.

[FishBrawler]

So you're looking at the LEDtric Inspire? While the fixture has some nice features, I'm not sure how great it will look compared to some of the competition, using cool white 6500k chips. The Reefbreeders Photon16 would be a much better value for you and will give you better color, too. It's $319 shipped. http://reefbreeders.com/it2040.html

 

You can also customize the color mix, as well, for an extra $10. You can remove six whites and the two green chips and add another eight violets, which will get better growth.

 

Of course, DIY is preferable, but not everyone wants to do that.

I just want a sleek and controllable fixture, becaus ethe only reason I would go withed is for controllability and I dont think that I have the best diy skills to create a decent looking and maximum controllable fixture. The iNspire uses epistart and epi led I think. Not the best but I dont mind as long as it gives good spectrum. Does anyone make custom fixture with the colors for around $400 and timers and channels and stuff?