NanoTopia's ZEOvit 80L [ ]

[NanoTopia]

So from my understanding traditional hydrometers are more accurate than refractometers ? Or am I just not reading what wrote correctly ?

I would say this is subjective so you really need to experiment with all three instruments (hydrometer, refractometer, conductivity probe) to form your own opinion. In a scientific setting, conductivity is considered the best way to measure seawater salinity (conductivity). Refractometers are used mainly to measure brix, and as I understand hydrometers are mainly used for density of various solutions.

 

When hydrometers hit the market, hobbyists considered them the holy grail, but these were not quality instruments and generally designed for brix measurement. Only now are refractometers like the RedSea one, addressing these issues better at a hobbyist level. Seawater refractometers have been available for years but the companies that make them are only now targeting aquatic hobbyists.

 

So it depends on which refractometer you are using, how and with what you have calibrated it with, and lastly how it is used and interpreted. I am in conversation with a hobbyist that has a Vital Sine refractometer, she is calibrating it with PinPoint 35ppt solution, she gets 33ppt, then 34ppt, seems either the user or the instrument is not reliable. In either case it makes the instrument useless IMO.

[Jstn]

NO MORE REFRACTOMETER

 

 

After educating myself on salinity measurement and talking to some very successful reefers around the world I have decided never to trust a refractometer (digital or not) ever again. Initially, I doubted the reading I was getting from my new conductivity probe, it was just that far out from my traditional digital refractometer results ( 31.5ppt - much lower), I found it hard to believe. So, I consulted some experts and treaded with caution, increased salinity slowly to 33.7ppt (according to the conductivity probe). This gave me a ~36ppt (or 1.027) when using the digital refract. Nervously, I watched the corals and all aspects of the tank for any slight sign of negative response. For a week I watched, nothing bad happened, only good. Stubbern corals that would'nt reach the colours I expected suddenly (within 2 days) began to show changes, yes hints of colour on tips I had not seen. Coralline changed colour and began to pop up everywhere (unusual for my tank). PE increased on corals that previously had little in the day time. All this (and more) in such a short time? Can't be... right?

 

Well it is. Call it anecdotal, call it what you want, I am calling it nothing short of a revelation.

 

Seems I was keeping corals at the very lowest range acceptable to sustain them (~32ppt) based on my fancy Milwaukee digital refractometer, not the optimum (34-35ppt) or 53,000 mS/cm. The increase in salinity to what I now believe is a TRUE ~34ppt has made a unmistakable improvement with all aspects of the tank in a week. I can't imagine what's to come.

 

If you still believe your refractometer because everyone else does or told you to, do yourself a favour, have a sample of your water tested for conductivity at a reputable lab. Feel free to post your results here

 

 

Happy reefing everyone !

 

 

Good to know, how do you calibrate this probe?

[jedimasterben]

So from my understanding traditional hydrometers are more accurate than refractometers ? Or am I just not reading what wrote correctly ?

Floating glass hydrometers are more accurate as long as they are temperature calibrated at what we typically keep our tanks at (~77F) and as long as they are rinsed in pure water after use. Swing-arm hydrometers are usually temperature compensating, but readings are much more easily altered by any air bubbles on the arm, residue if they aren't rinsed, etc. They're also cheap, so people typically do not take care of them, and readings get more and more off over time.

[NanoTopia]

Good to know, how do you calibrate this probe?

 

First the probe needs to sit in the tank for a week, turned on. This is to allow for settlement of the instrument, prior to that they bounce around quite a bit so no point in calibrating them. This is true for the Neptune probe but may not be true for other probes.

 

Conductivity is directly related to temperature so you need to have a probe that has a built-in temp sensor or in the case of Neptune, purchase a separate temp probe to attach to the PM2 module.

 

With both the conductivity probe and temp probe in a bath of water (preferably 25c) and the temp probe already calibrated, the temp probe goes in the conductivity 53,000 mS/cm solution and the temp probe stays in the bath with the solution packet ...

 

hard to explain LOL

 

Here :

[Reefkid88]

Okay,I get what you're saying. I've always wondered what if my cheap hydrometer was correct or not. So tomorrow when I go to get some frags,I'm doing to take some water with me and have them test it against their refractometer and see how accurate it is.

 

If it's reading the same if what I get,then I'm going to sell off my refractometer that I've had for months laying around and never used.

[Reefkid88]

Floating glass hydrometers are more accurate as long as they are temperature calibrated at what we typically keep our tanks at (~77F) and as long as they are rinsed in pure water after use. Swing-arm hydrometers are usually temperature compensating, but readings are much more easily altered by any air bubbles on the arm, residue if they aren't rinsed, etc. They're also cheap, so people typically do not take care of them, and readings get more and more off over time.

I've heard they're better than the plastic ones like I have. An I have also almost bought one. I rinse mine off after every use. Regardless of it being cheap,I take care of stuff especially for my tank more so than other things lol.

[BattleAthletics]

My god. I can only wish. You have nailed it.

OH

MY

 

GOD!

[Spiderguardnano]

I dont know what to do anymore lol im so confused on what to measure my salinity with anymore

[Arkayology]

I dont know what to do anymore lol im so confused on what to measure my salinity with anymore

I think that is what they are trying to say! Nobody knows the right way to do it

[NanoTopia]

I dont know what to do anymore lol im so confused on what to measure my salinity with anymore

I think that is what they are trying to say! Nobody knows the right way to do it

 

 

LOL, well I think for the most part we know how to do it but the equipment we use varies so much along with the results. Most cheaper refractometers are IMO complete garbage and you would be far better off mixing your salt mix by weight:water volume. There are some better refractometers on the market designed for seawater but I have found they also tend to read higher than actual. These will get you in range and unless you are as anal as me, you will probably do alright with those.

 

Conductivity meters measure the ions in the water and thus their relative conductivity, mS/cm. If the conductivity measuring device is of some quality and is calibrated using temperature compensation, you cannot beat the accuracy they can produce. The scientific community now recognizes conductivity as the most accurate way to measure seawater salinity, it is now called PSU or Practical Salinity Units. PSU is converted into PPT using an algorithm.

 

I still think the biggest reason for discrepancy between all this equipment is temperature compensation. If your refractometer is calibrated for 20c, then when you place a water sample on the prism it quickly cools to the temperature of the refractometer. The ATC converts it to the calibration of the refractometer, and not magically to the temperature of your aquarium, how could it. Temperature plays a big role in salinity measurement.

 

Anyone know for sure if a refractometer that is calibrated at 20c (usually says on the refractometer) reads the sample based on the temperature of the refractometer or does it convert the temperature of the refractometer to it's calibration point to give it's result?

 

Anyway, if you look in my garbage bin you will see a refractometer in it

 

 

Make your own standards

[Toybuddha]

This is just amazing!

Well done indeed.

[Dramad1]

Agreed^^^ thanks for sharing.

[Nano sapiens]

NO MORE REFRACTOMETER

 

 

After educating myself on salinity measurement and talking to some very successful reefers around the world I have decided never to trust a refractometer (digital or not) ever again. Initially, I doubted the reading I was getting from my new conductivity probe, it was just that far out from my traditional digital refractometer results ( 31.5ppt - much lower), I found it hard to believe. So, I consulted some experts and treaded with caution, increased salinity slowly to 33.7ppt (according to the conductivity probe). This gave me a ~36ppt (or 1.027) when using the digital refract. Nervously, I watched the corals and all aspects of the tank for any slight sign of negative response. For a week I watched, nothing bad happened, only good. Stubbern corals that would'nt reach the colours I expected suddenly (within 2 days) began to show changes, yes hints of colour on tips I had not seen. Coralline changed colour and began to pop up everywhere (unusual for my tank). PE increased on corals that previously had little in the day time. All this (and more) in such a short time? Can't be... right?

 

Well it is. Call it anecdotal, call it what you want, I am calling it nothing short of a revelation.

 

Seems I was keeping corals at the very lowest range acceptable to sustain them (~32ppt) based on my fancy Milwaukee digital refractometer, not the optimum (34-35ppt) or 53,000 mS/cm. The increase in salinity to what I now believe is a TRUE ~34ppt has made a unmistakable improvement with all aspects of the tank in a week. I can't imagine what's to come.

 

If you still believe your refractometer because everyone else does or told you to, do yourself a favour, have a sample of your water tested for conductivity at a reputable lab. Feel free to post your results here

 

 

Happy reefing everyone !

 

Good information and the bit about raising salinity and SPS coloration caught my eye. So many information sources proclaim that as long as one is within a 'range', you're good to go. For a general mixed reef I'd say this info is okay since most corals appear not to be effected much by slightly lower salinity, but when one is trying to bring out the best in coloration in Acropora (especially ones where we know what they potentially could look like) I suspect that stability AND a salinity of 35ppm would produce the best results. Before and after pics showing any coloration changes when salinity is increased, but nothing else is changed, would be very interesting!

 

I have my old relic plastic swing-arm tested every year at one or two LFSs using various refractometers and my aquarium water sample consistently reads anywhere between 1.025 or 1.026, depending on the device used. I too believe that both these numbers are actually low by at least 0.001 (possibly even 0.002) if 35ppm is the goal. Since I changed my lighting strip LED composition and lighting duration slightly, I plan to wait a few weeks to let coral color changes develop/stabilize and then slowly raise salinity by .001 to judge any effect on SPS.

[VABumpkin]

I wonder if low salinity was the reason sps struggled in my tank so much... I too am using the Milwaukee digital refractometer so maybe I should invest in a conductivity probe to see what the salinity's really at. Anyone know any good conductivity meters?

[markalot]

I'd wonder if, in a reef tank, electrical measurements of salinity are that accurate? DOC's are going to generally be much higher in a fish tank than in the open ocean, I think, and won't that throw off the salinity measurements? It could certainly be that your old refractometer stunk, but I use one I calibrate weekly to 35ppt solution and it stays accurate ... well, it stays pointing to the same number.

[NanoTopia]

Good information and the bit about raising salinity and SPS coloration caught my eye. So many information sources proclaim that as long as one is within a 'range', you're good to go. For a general mixed reef I'd say this info is okay since most corals appear not to be effected much by slightly lower salinity, but when one is trying to bring out the best in coloration in Acropora (especially ones where we know what they potentially could look like) I suspect that stability AND a salinity of 35ppm would produce the best results. Before and after pics showing any coloration changes when salinity is increased, but nothing else is changed, would be very interesting!

 

I have my old relic plastic swing-arm tested every year at one or two LFSs using various refractometers and my aquarium water sample consistently reads anywhere between 1.025 or 1.026, depending on the device used. I too believe that both these numbers are actually low by at least 0.001 (possibly even 0.002) if 35ppm is the goal. Since I changed my lighting strip LED composition and lighting duration slightly, I plan to wait a few weeks to let coral color changes develop/stabilize and then slowly raise salinity by .001 to judge any effect on SPS.

Every organism in the sea has an optimum salinity in which it will thrive in, and a range in which it will survive in. All the corals in our tanks are from different regions of the world, with different salinities. Each organism has an optimum salinity in which it will thrive, you cannot make every coral in the tank 100% happy at the same time. It's important to understand that just because a coral is collected in a specific location the ocean, it does not necessary mean that it was thriving in that location, it could have just been surviving. There are just too many variables to comprehend.

 

I am not suggesting that a salinity of 35 ppt will yield better results than say 34 ppt, or vice versa, but I do believe 34-35ppt will yield better overall results than say 31 or 32 ppt. My refractometer read in the 34ppt range when ever I tested my water, so I believed that if corals were not doing as well as I thought they could be, it must be something else other than salinity. In my case the digital refractometer I was using along with the optical refractometer were giving false high readings. I believed them until I experimented with conductivity. I played a hunch, and trusted the conductivity reading, brought up salinity slowly to salinity 34ppt (conductivity reading converted from mS/cm by algorithm). Within a few days I could see some interesting things happening in my reef, some "stubborn" corals, corals that just never seemed to want to colour up (even when some other corals showed good colour), began to respond with better colour, PE, and general health. They just started looking better (can't explain). I will add that growth has improved as well on many corals, alkalinity consumption has increased.

 

This is all just anecdotal information, what I have observed in my reef. I may add that I raised the salinity in my 7 gallon tank as well, same observation as the 20 gallon. I suggest, and suggest only, that if you are having trouble with corals not colouring up the way they should, and maybe just that corals are not looking very healthy, it is worth having your conductivity tested so you can rule out salinity as the cause.

 

I will work on some pics, before and after, give me a few days

 

 

I wonder if low salinity was the reason sps struggled in my tank so much... I too am using the Milwaukee digital refractometer so maybe I should invest in a conductivity probe to see what the salinity's really at. Anyone know any good conductivity meters?

It is possible, always a good idea to cross check salinity using several different devices. Just make sure those devices are fairly good quality, otherwise you're just wasting your time. I might add that mixing a proven salinity standard is a good way to cross check devices you use. You can always have you water tested for salinity, rather than buying a conductivity probe.

 

I'd wonder if, in a reef tank, electrical measurements of salinity are that accurate? DOC's are going to generally be much higher in a fish tank than in the open ocean, I think, and won't that throw off the salinity measurements? It could certainly be that your old refractometer stunk, but I use one I calibrate weekly to 35ppt solution and it stays accurate ... well, it stays pointing to the same number.

I am not so sure DOC is all that conductive, and if it was, given the low amount in our SPS systems, I don't think they would play a big part in a conductivity reading, Na, Cl, Mg, SO4 make up ~96% of the ions in seawater. The other 4% are all the other major and minor elements, and organics. So organics make up less than 1% of typical seawater. (Randy Holmes Farley).

 

Testing the conductivity of aquarium water should also be done in a separate container so any electrical interference will be eliminated.

 

I used the Milwaukee MA887 digital refractometer for the last year or so, basically a toy, but foolishly I trusted it because it was always consistant in its reading +/- 5% , didn't make it correct.

[Nano sapiens]

Every organism in the sea has an optimum salinity in which it will thrive in, and a range in which it will survive in. All the corals in our tanks are from different regions of the world, with different salinities.

 

Correct and that's why various authors/experts have recommended a range since no one salinity can be identified as 'ideal' for so many different species from different areas. It's probably correct to say that the majority of corals in most reef aquariums are from the Indo-Pacific. Salinity tends to be lower than in the Atlantic or the Red Sea, but is still in the 33 - 35 ppt range in most of the Indo-Pacific oceanic reef areas.

 

Coloration for nearly all my corals is fine at 1.025 - 1.026 (refractometer reading), but I'm curious to see if raising it has any positive effect on my Red Planet Acro's coloration which is not as intense as I believe it could be. Reefers got to have something to play around with, ya know

[NanoTopia]

Correct and that's why various authors/experts have recommended a range since no one salinity can be identified as 'ideal' for so many different species from different areas. It's probably correct to say that the majority of corals in most reef aquariums are from the Indo-Pacific. Salinity tends to be lower than in the Atlantic or the Red Sea, but is still in the 33 - 35 ppt range in most of the Indo-Pacific oceanic reef areas.

 

Coloration for nearly all my corals is fine at 1.025 - 1.026 (refractometer reading), but I'm curious to see if raising it has any positive effect on my Red Planet Acro's coloration which is not as intense as I believe it could be. Reefers got to have something to play around with, ya know

Do you have a picture of your red planet?

 

BTW, my digital refractometer reads 35-36ppt, while conductivity says 34ppt.

[Nano sapiens]

This pic is few weeks old, so just imagine that the branches are ~1/2" longer. It's also developing some aqua-blue on the far side and on the branch tips which I'd like to see spread. I'm limited to ~250 PAR due to the neighbors not being able to take much more and no doubt higher light would bring out more reds and pinks. On the plus side I'm just happy that it's growing in such a small, unfiltered 'Shroom dominated tank and that the branches will soon be reaching higher light levels. Ultimately I'd be happy to see this coral with all the colors equally represented. This is the stock that it came from: http://www.vividaquariums.com/p-7091-red-planet-table-acropora.aspx

 

[NanoTopia]

When the RP is in this incrusted state you often don't see the true colours of this coral until it starts to table. I have found this to be a very strange coral, sensitive to lighting, tank parameters, and flow. It could be nutrients in the tank preventing it from colouring in your case, also 250PAR is on the low end of acceptable for this coral. Mine gets 350+ and has deep coloration . I dose ZEOvit B-Balance which I find helps quite a bit with the reds and pinks, this additive contains strontium amongst other things. Spectrum seems to play a big role in colour for RP. I have found the best colours come out when using a predominately blue spectrum, something in the range of 14-16K.

 

So here is mine taken a few weeks ago, I have better PE on it now with the higher salinity and the base (covers a whole rock basically) is a deep red also with hints of green. It has been changing colour slightly since the increase in salinity also, I am convinced this coral needs at least a salinity 34ppt to thrive.

 

[Alex B]

Christine

 

How are things going with the flame back? I want a anglefish so bad. I have been so close to picking up a cherub. Have you seen any decrease in PE? Any nipping? My tank is pretty much all sps except for a small rock with z&p. I'm about to bite the bullet and try one.

[Nano sapiens]

When the RP is in this incrusted state you often don't see the true colours of this coral until it starts to table. I have found this to be a very strange coral, sensitive to lighting, tank parameters, and flow. It could be nutrients in the tank preventing it from colouring in your case, also 250PAR is on the low end of acceptable for this coral. Mine gets 350+ and has deep coloration . I dose ZEOvit B-Balance which I find helps quite a bit with the reds and pinks, this additive contains strontium amongst other things. Spectrum seems to play a big role in colour for RP. I have found the best colours come out when using a predominately blue spectrum, something in the range of 14-16K.

 

So here is mine taken a few weeks ago, I have better PE on it now with the higher salinity and the base (covers a whole rock basically) is a deep red also with hints of green. It has been changing colour slightly since the increase in salinity also, I am convinced this coral needs at least a salinity 34ppt to thrive.

 

 

Wow, that is a beauty! I remember your posts way back when you first obtained this ORA coral and it's certainly come a long way! I can see a little green in the base (lower light) which is great since I like to see some color contrast in this coral. Your comments on the RP are similar to others that have been posted that it is an unusually finicky Acro.

 

As you can see from my FTS pic, overall coral color in the tank is vibrant including SPS such as Purple Digi, Pavona maldivensis, M. Setosa, etc. Although my Salifert kits show '0' for NO3 and PO4, the aquarium still is nutrient rich since I have some red cyano on the rocks and some very resilient sand bed algae that comes and goes. Possibly coincidentally, the RP ice-aqua-blue color, which i find very appealing, developed when my salinity accidentally rose to 1.0265 and then waned again when I brought it back to ~1.026. Your comments coincided with this incident, which I found interesting!

 

It's been very rewarding to bring a barely 3/8" RP frag to where it is today and, if I can keep things stable, in a year or two I'm hoping it'll be a colorful, tabling little mini colony . Thanks for you insights!

[NanoTopia]

Christine

 

How are things going with the flame back? I want a anglefish so bad. I have been so close to picking up a cherub. Have you seen any decrease in PE? Any nipping? My tank is pretty much all sps except for a small rock with z&p. I'm about to bite the bullet and try one.

He's doing very well, no nipping. I think the trick is to feed twice a day, keeps the belly full and any thoughts of chowing down on my acro's are curbed. PE is better then ever, more to do with salinity increase not the fish, LOL. He likes to look for pods so maybe seed the tank first if you don't already have a good pod population. He's an awesome fish.

 

Wow, that is a beauty! I remember your posts way back when you first obtained this ORA coral and it's certainly come a long way! I can see a little green in the base (lower light) which is great since I like to see some color contrast in this coral. Your comments on the RP are similar to others that have been posted that it is an unusually finicky Acro.

 

As you can see from my FTS pic, overall coral color in the tank is vibrant including SPS such as Purple Digi, Pavona maldivensis, M. Setosa, etc. Although my Salifert kits show '0' for NO3 and PO4, the aquarium still is nutrient rich since I have some red cyano on the rocks and some very resilient sand bed algae that comes and goes. Possibly coincidentally, the RP ice-aqua-blue color, which i find very appealing, developed when my salinity accidentally rose to 1.0265 and then waned again when I brought it back to ~1.026. Your comments coincided with this incident, which I found interesting!

 

It's been very rewarding to bring a barely 3/8" RP frag to where it is today and, if I can keep things stable, in a year or two I'm hoping it'll be a colorful, tabling little mini colony . Thanks for you insights!

Thanks, give it some time, my RP took a year before I saw tabling, it just incrusted 5-6 inch in diameter. LOL. Watching coral grow is my hobby

[Nano sapiens]

Thanks, give it some time, my RP took a year before I saw tabling, it just incrusted 5-6 inch in diameter. LOL. Watching coral grow is my hobby

 

Much preferred to watching grass grow!

 

My RP is on it's way to LR domination. Even the Acans have a hard time standing up to it!

[Giga]

I'm steady lurkin