a Wisconsin Reef... my experiences in aquaculture

[Alpha Aquaculture]

Nice onyx coloration, but from a breeding standpoint, I wouldn't raise the fry. The female has a deformity and wouldn't be classified as Grade 'A' even with the amazing coloration. That trait can be passed down to the next generation, and even if it isn't apparent, they can still carry the genes. It may pop up somewhere far down the line... Not to be a Debby Downer or anything...

 

Now I feel rude, but just saying.

 

What trait are you talking about? I'm not saying she is perfect but at the same time she is not getting fed to the angler. Most clowns out there are not perfect. Do you have experience raising fry from parents that have this particular trait you discuss? I want to hatch her eggs for practice and for fun. She is a beautiful clown and I am so happy she is finally happy enough to breed. Trust me I have over 60 absolutely perfect insane clowns in my breeding program. I'm not concerned with any possible negatives from breeding her. She is breeding on her own and the eggs are there. Why wouldn't I raise some of them to see what they are all about? I've never hatched a clownfish egg! Its gonna be fun for me and it will be my chance to learn

[Euphyllia]

What trait are you talking about? I'm not saying she is perfect but at the same time she is not getting fed to the angler. Most clowns out there are not perfect. Do you have experience raising fry from parents that have this particular trait you discuss? I want to hatch her eggs for practice and for fun. She is a beautiful clown and I am so happy she is finally happy enough to breed. Trust me I have over 60 absolutely perfect insane clowns in my breeding program. I'm not concerned with any possible negatives from breeding her. She is breeding on her own and the eggs are there. Why wouldn't I raise some of them to see what they are all about? I've never hatched a clownfish egg! Its gonna be fun for me and it will be my chance to learn

 

Okay, but it's not the smartest thing to do from the breeding standpoint. As I said, if she produces offspring that carry the genetics for pinch head and other deformities caused by inbreeding, their offspring have a chance of getting it too, even if it's not apparent in this clown's offspring. Once those genetics get mixed into the common genes of the most beautiful of clownfish, Onyx clowns, it could potentially ruin the captive-bred Onyx strain in the long term. I'm not trying to criticize you and I do agree that it would be good experience to raise the fry, but as cruel as it may sound, they should be culled. I'm not for the whole killing animals thing, and I do think it would be good to give them to a caring home, but you have no control over if the owners breed them or not. The offspring may not have the deformity, but the gene is still there, and it WILL be passed along. If it were my decision, I would wait until another one of your 60 perfect insane clowns breed and then raise their offspring, contributing to the genepool in a good manner. Just my opinion. I don't mean to attack you personally or insult you, but I believe everyone should follow the same set of rules, not to breed deformed animals.

[mmcguffi]

thank god for this thread so we can all vicariously live up our wildest dreams in aquaculture

 

you guys are doing some pretty amazing things--keep up the good work and keep us updated!

 

Okay, but it's not ..... low the same set of rules, not to breed deformed animals.

yea alpha corals you should really listen to euphullia. he clearly has a ton of expirence here and has invested thousands of dollars in their rearing. kill half your clowns and just eat the overhead IMO

 

dont want those mutant misbars with their aweful genetics leaking out into the wild world of domestic clownfish breeding

 

[maxst2]

Okay, but it's not the smartest thing to do from the breeding standpoint. As I said, if she produces offspring that carry the genetics for pinch head and other deformities caused by inbreeding, their offspring have a chance of getting it too, even if it's not apparent in this clown's offspring. Once those genetics get mixed into the common genes of the most beautiful of clownfish, Onyx clowns, it could potentially ruin the captive-bred Onyx strain in the long term. I'm not trying to criticize you and I do agree that it would be good experience to raise the fry, but as cruel as it may sound, they should be culled. I'm not for the whole killing animals thing, and I do think it would be good to give them to a caring home, but you have no control over if the owners breed them or not. The offspring may not have the deformity, but the gene is still there, and it WILL be passed along. If it were my decision, I would wait until another one of your 60 perfect insane clowns breed and then raise their offspring, contributing to the genepool in a good manner. Just my opinion. I don't mean to attack you personally or insult you, but I believe everyone should follow the same set of rules, not to breed deformed animals.

 

I'd have to agree here to a certain degree, you could always sell them to LFS. 99% of those sales are unlikely to ever be used to breed.

[Alpha Aquaculture]

Okay, but it's not the smartest thing to do from the breeding standpoint. As I said, if she produces offspring that carry the genetics for pinch head and other deformities caused by inbreeding, their offspring have a chance of getting it too, even if it's not apparent in this clown's offspring. Once those genetics get mixed into the common genes of the most beautiful of clownfish, Onyx clowns, it could potentially ruin the captive-bred Onyx strain in the long term. I'm not trying to criticize you and I do agree that it would be good experience to raise the fry, but as cruel as it may sound, they should be culled. I'm not for the whole killing animals thing, and I do think it would be good to give them to a caring home, but you have no control over if the owners breed them or not. The offspring may not have the deformity, but the gene is still there, and it WILL be passed along. If it were my decision, I would wait until another one of your 60 perfect insane clowns breed and then raise their offspring, contributing to the genepool in a good manner. Just my opinion. I don't mean to attack you personally or insult you, but I believe everyone should follow the same set of rules, not to breed deformed animals.

 

This is a good discussion. I've tried to bring up the topic of deformities in this forum before but I never got a lot of responses. Please tell me exactly what traits you are referring to. When you say pinch head are you referring to the elongated head? Raising the eggs and distributing the offspring are two different things. I have a hungry angler that eats a ton of clownfish lol.

 

At this point it would be beneficial if you created a list of deformities, as a set of rules like you describe. I think it is a good idea.

 

Then the next question is to what extent should each deformity be considered too much. Each deformity should be described in depth with pictures showing acceptable and not acceptable.

 

If you think we need to stop this deformed inbreeding, then the real question is how do we get breeders to allow outsiders to see their broodstock tanks? How many breeders right now are hatching, raising, and distributing clownfish from deformed parents? The problem is not people like me who are open, honest and just want to learn the process. Its the large scale breeders that do not allow people into their broodstock room. Its what those people have to hide that scares me. How do you know that the clowns you find acceptable for breeding have not come from secret parents with deformities?

[Alpha Aquaculture]

The offspring may not have the deformity, but the gene is still there, and it WILL be passed along.

 

Could you please elaborate? In my genetics education I learned about the punnett square. If one clown with a 'bad' gene is crossed to another clown without the gene, there will be a certain percentage of the offspring that will not carry the 'bad' gene at all.

 

I'm not trying to make a point to distribute fry from deformed parents. I'm simply creating some discussion about these topics you bring up so everyone can understand.

 

I do agree with your statements and your thoughts. I just think there is a lot more discussion needed to define these 'rules' which I agree should be out there.

[Alpha Aquaculture]

thank god for this thread so we can all vicariously live up our wildest dreams in aquaculture

 

you guys are doing some pretty amazing things--keep up the good work and keep us updated!

 

 

yea alpha corals you should really listen to euphullia. he clearly has a ton of expirence here and has invested thousands of dollars in their rearing. kill half your clowns and just eat the overhead IMO

 

dont want those mutant misbars with their aweful genetics leaking out into the wild world of domestic clownfish breeding

 

 

Thank you for the kind words. Its always very nice to hear positive comments. You know I will keep it updated to the fullest!

 

I don't think anyone should be straight killing these clowns. I flushed an alive deformed clown down the toilet one time and I can still see it going down. It haunts me. I told myself never again and I decided to look for a hobbyist who wanted to give an angler a new home. Its the way it should be. If your not getting an angler consider finding a local hobbyist with one and maybe even trade the clowns for a few frags.

 

I don't disagree with him. I have been into clownfish since January of this year. I only felt like I could adequately look at a clownfish and see deformities in November of this year. I purchased those clowns before I knew better. So I think yea if we are gonna stop people from breeding these types of clowns we have to educate them. This is where the rules would come in. But the thing is you can't stop people by creating a law enforcing these rules. How do you get people to want to only breed with perfect fish? Maybe a cool club where you have to post clear pictures of both sides of your pair.

 

 

I bought that Onyx clownfish without knowing about the deformity. So now I have her. She is one of two pairs that is laying eggs for me right now. The other pair is eating the eggs and they usually don't last past day 2. I have twelve hatching tanks that sit empty. I need all the egg I can get just to try out the technique with rotifers, its gonna be my first time. Right now I only have one clown in the angler tank so a few more will be a blessing, maybe I will keep one baby if its got the super monster gene and looks crazy. I will keep the monster fish in my tank at my house to scare guests.

[rrcg50]

That what this is about

Learning.!

It took me 3 years to actually say that I knew nothing about breeding and wanted to learn how to do it. Don't get me wrong I had a few successes but nothing on the larger scale. After that I did hundreds of hours of research and now I can say I am good at it. I regularly get big hatches and I can get most pairs to start breeding in my systems pretty easily. Hatch them and learn because the curve is steep and definitely not forgiving.

And remember when in doubt heat the tanks to 83 and feed

Oooops did that slip out

Oh well just another tidbit for the brain and the masses

[Luckedout]

You'll just have to be more diligent about culling the one's with problems. I say go for it. Just be upfront with people. Show the parents off. Most hobbyists won't care, but you may not get interest from some breeders due to the deformity in the female, but that's not really the bulk of the market.

 

I'm not a geneticist, but since this trait is already a common deformity that breeders run into, I don't think you'll be doing any harm by rearing their fry.

[Pickle010]

I agree that full disclosure would be key - but the only problem with that is you are trusting the stores that you supply and buyers who you sell to also be as honest and to continue disclosing any defects in the gentics. I just don't know how realistic that is.

[Luckedout]

That's a good point pickle.

[Euphyllia]

Captive animals like that should be culled. We having them in captivity, so they are surviving better than in the wild, however, if they WERE in the wild, they would die. I'm sure there is some inbreeding in the wild, but the offspring don't survive, thus creating a strain of fish that looks like they do.

 

Please, feel free to raise them, but make sure every single one gets into that angler's mouth!

 

Pickle is correct. You have to go on what you see and trust who is selling the fish to you. There is no other way to know other than getting a DNA sample and running testing, which might be more costly than the fish. It should be a moral for people to be honest. Try to keep the strain as pure as possible and let anyone you see the fish to know that there might be defects in the DNA.

 

For those parents, cull all their fry until you get the hang of raising them, then just raise other fish. You know what to do lol.

[Pickle010]

I'm sure there is some inbreeding in the wild, but the offspring don't survive, thus creating a strain of fish that looks like they do.

 

 

I don't know if you've done any research on the subject but most references I've come across state that MOST clowns found on the same reef are inbred. Which makes sense since in nature clowns do not travel very far.

 

I think that we can do a better job of limiting or eliminating the inbreeding in captivity.

[Alpha Aquaculture]

Light it up!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Getting ready for some major coral fragging, this is just the very very beginning!!! We already have hundreds of frags and will be taking thousands within the next few months. Then we are gonna let all those frags grow out under these lights for 2-3 months and frag again. I'm gonna be doing some very cool things with the raceways I can't wait to show everyone!!!

[rrcg50]

Okay I'm hungry now

 

Needs to get me some of them to fill my hunger

 

Me needs some sweet corals

[Luckedout]

You really are going all out! I can't wait to see what you roll out.

[Pickle010]

I'll be curious to see what you think of those fixtures down the road - for the cost they look pretty hard to beat. I'm assuming you purchased w/o bulbs and you'll be putting your own mix of T5's in them?

[Euphyllia]

I don't know if you've done any research on the subject but most references I've come across state that MOST clowns found on the same reef are inbred. Which makes sense since in nature clowns do not travel very far.

 

I think that we can do a better job of limiting or eliminating the inbreeding in captivity.

 

As I stated, there is inbreeding in the wild. I was referring to the fry with serious inbreeding deformities that don't survive. And yes, we CAN eliminate inbreeder, but there are still people that decide to breed deformed fish because they are unable to understand the consequences.

[dahenley]

hows those Hydro fixtures coming?

[Alpha Aquaculture]

hows those Hydro fixtures coming?

 

hahahahaha I got them from the local grow store and am working with them to try and get more exposure for my business. They are gonna allow me to place a tank in their shop and at one of their booths at a big expo that gets 20,000 people. Those lights are the absolute cheapest I could get! But they are working we have one up right now. I got them without bulbs. I'm in the process of deciding what bulbs and putting in the wholesale order. In a year the bulbs will cost more than the fixtures lol. Electricity probably more than both! I need to have thousands of frags after some growth. Its gonna be fun!

[animalmaster6]

Awesome!!!

 

I love the color on those acans. Definetly well kept

How big are the baby clowns in the mangrove pic?

[smitty_1280]

Very cool. I'm very excited for you and can't wait to see it all up and running.

[Alpha Aquaculture]

Awesome!!!

 

I love the color on those acans. Definetly well kept

How big are the baby clowns in the mangrove pic?

 

Thank you and thank you!!! We are fragging every single polyp in my entire personal collection into individual polyps by the end of this month. Its gonna be on!!! Some of the clowns in the mangrove tank were added around 21 days post hatch. The ones in the pics you see are a bit older, probably more like 5-6 weeks.

[animalmaster6]

Thank you and thank you!!! We are fragging every single polyp in my entire personal collection into individual polyps by the end of this month. Its gonna be on!!! Some of the clowns in the mangrove tank were added around 21 days post hatch. The ones in the pics you see are a bit older, probably more like 5-6 weeks.

Can't wait to see!

[Alpha Aquaculture]

The stoplight chalice rim combo. Red Yellow and Green rims!!! Just had to show them off with a quick pic. Bubble algae adds some character lol

 

 

I love this Red rim. Never has a red rim chalice been better!!! Been growing this piece for over 2 years. Never cut it!

 

 

Enjoy! Happy Holidays everyone!