Peroxide saves my Tank! With pics to Prove It!

[brandon429]

Also, before the practice of many people actually using it in tank, you can see how wrong the assumptions were its so dangerous. Chemists mis call

 

I've monitored thousands of p threads now, no danger, only ineffective was worst outcome.

 

Nano, that's an additional paradox. The regrowth rate of algae is slower even in same nutrients, we don't know why

[NanoTopia]

Found the paradoxical thread I mentioned just so y'all wouldn't think i'm making it up

http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1153115

 

Thank you for the thread Brandon, your dedication to researching N2O2 dosing is admirable and extremely beneficial to all aquarists, regardless if they use the methods or not. As Boomer (RC) stated an initial rise in ORP is noted after dosing, after the the reducers work to reduce the oxidation potential, ORP is lowered with the reduction of H2O2 in the system. This seems to make perfect sense to me given my limited chemistry knowledge. In a sense it simple gets used up, and more is needed to maintain effective levels. If I was using H2O2 I would dose it like ALK, with a doser, one drop at a time keeping the ORP at an effective level. I have no doubt it works, I have tested it myself by dipping only the rocks (with algae in it) that corals are attached to, but never the coral itself. This YouTube Video I shot only shows the coral immediately after it was dipped in H2O2, the coral is in regular salt water. I can tell you the algae on the base was 90% dissolved within one week after this dip. No other dips were needed.

[NanoTopia]

Also, before the practice of many people actually using it in tank, you can see how wrong the assumptions were its so dangerous. Chemists mis call

 

I've monitored thousands of p threads now, no danger, only ineffective was worst outcome.

 

Nano, that's an additional paradox. The regrowth rate of algae is slower even in same nutrients, we don't know why

 

Interesting Brandon, have you come across any threads stating bacteria were effected by dosing, I would be curious to read. There are so many things we fail to understand in this hobby. Scientists will likely never study the effects of increased peroxide in seawater unless it was possible to occur in nature. Again I state I am not against dosing peroxide, simply trying to understand the process taking place and if there are risks involved.

[brandon429]

I'm seeing the assumption that nutrient profile has to change as not the case, if anything its increased in my tiny test bowl w far far less eutrophication, I do spot doses every few months now, very interesting! Same thing on many threads too...mysteries we must id!

[brandon429]

Nano, the most interesting test of bacteria -ever- happened this week, almost on break will elaborate!

 

No ammonia or nitrite reading on any thread, any dosage at all, solid.

 

And just this week, next to last page of Rc thread shows the most hideous offensive dosing of peroxide ever done

 

On purpose, multiple bottles of 35% dumped one after another to purposely nuke a problem tank

 

Some corals survived! No bacterial loss...I nearly did a friggin backflip lol

It was nacl's tank

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...359&page=28

Edited July 13, 2012 by brandon429

[NanoTopia]

Most excellent info! Thanks so much, you two.

 

I'm now kicking myself for not ordering the ORP probe for my Apex. I wonder how quickly I can get one?

 

I wouldn't jump the gun too quickly Shelly, I only stated it I thought it would be useful, not necessary when dosing peroxide. Your eye is the best test kit, in low doses over several days I would think you should be okay. If you were increasing you dosage and pushing the limits with dosing it may be worth while to pick one up.

 

You have SPS in the tank now? If so, can you tell me their behaviour, PE, coloration, etc.

[brandon429]

Well we'd guess some bacteria lost...but not enough to affect ammonia readings even in face of huge benthic losses

 

Believe it or not, neomeris still came back!!

[RK_tek]

Another Neomeris update. After 50/50 dips, manual removal, and using a butane pencil torch, Neomeris is rising again. The areas that had heavy concentrations have little green "sprouts" popping up. I'm building a .5mg H-bomb to detonate inside my tank.

[Reef Miser]

Part of why ammonia and nitrite are not being detected after dosing could be that the peroxide will oxidize them too. The "cycle" bacteria oxidize ammonia into nitrite, and then further oxidize nitrite into nitrate. The argument could be made that long term dosing could starve out the nitrifying bacteria even if they do survive the oxidation that is killing their photosynthetic cousins.

 

I don't think there is a way to accurately measure bacterial death other than looking under a microscope to see if things are alive or dead.

[brandon429]

How about cessation of dosing, bacteria dead, bioload is same, so we'd get ammonia?

[NanoTopia]

Does anyone know what the half-life of the H202 is when dosing systemically?

 

 

This would be determined by the amount of reduction potential. The only way to know for sure would be to measure it continually, even that is dependant on each tank.

[Enigma]

I wouldn't jump the gun too quickly Shelly, I only stated it I thought it would be useful, not necessary when dosing peroxide. Your eye is the best test kit, in low doses over several days I would think you should be okay. If you were increasing you dosage and pushing the limits with dosing it may be worth while to pick one up.

 

You have SPS in the tank now? If so, can you tell me their behaviour, PE, coloration, etc.

 

But, but . . . I'm always looking for a good excuse to buy a new toy.

 

 

That said, I am watching the tank very, very closely.

 

Both of the SPS are brown. I gave them a 1:10 H202 dip, as they came out of the same frag tank as the bryopsis inducing "frag zero" chalice.

 

The birdsnest was in very bad shape when it was given to me: it had lost a lot of tissue, though it was green. The bubble algae turned up on it, as well as some bryopsis. The dip turned it brown. The polyps are nicely extended now, and the green colour is returning to it (despite the systemic dosage). There may be indication of new growth starting on the tips. That is also where it is the most green. I suspect the systemic dosage is slowing down its recovery. Tissue is growing back in many of the areas where tissue was originally lost.

 

The plating monti was brownish when it was given to me. It is supposed to turn green with purple edges. I did see the mother colony, so I know what colour it is supposed to be. The piece I have broke off the mother colony during shipping, and it is a little roughed up. The dip browned it a bit further. It did have a hint of green this morning. It does have some extended polyps (more then it had when I received it). It still appears to be in need of a lot of TLC though.

 

The two SPS may be moved to another tank this weekend, to give them the best shot at recovery. I do think it is best for them. I would say they are both in better condition than when I received them, but they have a ways to go.

[Reef Miser]

This would be determined by the amount of reduction potential. The only way to know for sure would be to measure it continually, even that is dependant on each tank.

 

True, but there are many separate Redox reactions happening at once that are not necessarily related or interdependent. It would be very hard to determine the half life in our tanks because the ions would be fighting for equilibrium in a very complex manner. It isn't as simple as H202 turning into H2O + O2.

[NanoTopia]

Enigma, thanks for the update, sometimes moving corals stresses them out even more. The initial browning may be do to nutrients excess and/or lighting. Hope they make a full recovery and you can enjoy their full coloration soon.

 

It would be interesting had you been using the ORP probe prior to beginning H2O2 treatments to see the course of how it was affected throughout the process. ORP is kind of a controversial topic these days, altering ORP with ozone is not being done much by reef hobbyists any more. Most ULNS such as running bio-pellets and zeovit methods require no ozone or UV to be used at all. They claim it interferes with bacteria colonization of media, but never say why. This is why I initially was curious how H2O2 would affect bacteria in the aquarium.

 

I personally would be cautious in increasing dosage of H2O2, there must be a tipping point you don't want to reach. Possibly peroxide dosing is most effective at low doses over a greater time period, much like everything else we do to our tanks. Time will tell, I am following your results Shelley.

Edited July 13, 2012 by NanoTopia

[Reef Miser]

How about cessation of dosing, bacteria dead, bioload is same, so we'd get ammonia?

True, but I am not sure we are talking about a huge biomass here. Typically the bacteria are a film on surfaces, which when all summed up probably adds up to a very very small amount of biomass compared to the ammonia we see when a higher ordered animal dies.

 

Also, in our case with nitrifiers, they are anaerobic. By their nature they are not as exposed to the water column as the algae. They are deep in rock and buried in sand. If there is some die-off from H2O2 exposure, I wouldn't be surprised. Completely sterilizing live rock through diffusion at the concentrations we are talking about seems highly unlikely. I actually have wondered how the ammonia and nitrite effectively get to them in the first place.

 

So I agree and disagree at the same time. I think bacteria are dying from dosing along side algae, but that there isn't enough die-off deep in the rock to disrupt the nitrification cycle.

 

On the other hand, if you did have massive algal die-off, you would expect elevated ammonia too. It would be impossible to tell if it was from the dead bacteria or dead algae. The fact that you see neither suggests that the H2O2 is short-cutting the cycle chemically instead of biologically.

[Enigma]

Thanks, Christine.

 

I have neglected to note that the tank is being given a couple of drops of Zeobak every day or so: to hopefully mitigate any bacterial losses.

[NanoTopia]

Thanks, Christine.

 

I have neglected to note that the tank is being given a couple of drops of Zeobak every day or so: to hopefully mitigate any bacterial losses.

 

Hmmm, I wonder if any of the bacteria are reaching their destination. When are you dosing the Zeobac in relation to the H2O2?

[Enigma]

Hmmm, I wonder if any of the bacteria are reaching their destination. When are you dosing the Zeobac in relation to the H2O2?

 

It varies.

 

But, that is a very good point. It is something to consider. I'll make sure to always do it in the evening from now on.

[brandon429]

Neat fact about RMs thread too, hopefully its the go to collective for different accounts on reef peroxide runs pro and con. P is new to being tested on so many tanks even though individual tests have been ran long ago, the Rc thread was in o7 for example

 

 

But everyone cautioned it such that in tank runs were predicted devastating

 

And they used to say coral allelopathy made pico reefs a photoshopping event

 

 

 

What tone will the first formal article take? I expect the first to probably challenge the practice.

 

 

 

Direct contact on Montipora is now almost nonstressful to the growing edges, 35%. 35% won't kill red mushrooms or zoanthids now regardless of direct contact time, interesting adaptations occur.

Edited July 14, 2012 by brandon429

[Enigma]

Well, the Ducan really, really does not like my systemic dosing @ just over 1ml/gallon for the system. I'll see if it pokes its heads out today. If so, I'll dial back the dosage a little.

 

Bryopsis hasn't grown on the glass over the last 36 or so hours. A little may have grown on the sanded. It is hard to tell. I'm pretty sure there is more on the rocks. I may dip those today.

 

I may also move the Ducan to a different tank, so I can continue with the systemic dosage at the level I'm at, and maybe try increasing it.

[NanoTopia]

Can you post some pictures Shelley. 1 mL/gallon means you are dosing 40mL daily?

 

Will you begin to manually remove bryopsis or is it melting away on it's own?

[Enigma]

Can you post some pictures Shelley. 1 mL/gallon means you are dosing 40mL daily?

 

Will you begin to manually remove bryopsis or is it melting away on it's own?

 

Oops! 1ml/10 gallons. It is a 55gallon system. The 7.5ml dosage is what is upsetting the duncan. It was fine at 4ml. My bad. Second coffee being consumed now

 

Photos won't show much at this point, I don't think. But, I'll see what I can do (i do need a another opinion). After staring at my tank for around a 1/2 hour this morning. I do think now that I'm dealing with bryopsis and GHA. Mostly GHA, as it has no fronds. The GHA (if I'm right in my revised ID) popped up by the birdsnest first. As that came from the same bryopsis riddled system as Frag Zero, that no doubt influenced my ID.

 

I *think* most of the bryopsis may be gone. The bryopsis bleached white, and at that point I was able to easily remove it from the glass using the magnet cleaner. The stuff on the sand just disappeared (Mexican Turbos, maybe?). Frag Zero still has bleached bryopsis on it, but there has been no more growth on the frag, so I'm confident in saying that it is dead. Frag Zero was dipped in 1:10.

 

The dinos are mostly gone (I removed nothing manually). I can see one very little glob of it. The cyano on the Duncan is very dark reddish brown this morning.

[Enigma]

Blackberry photos, so not the greatest (I've thrown out my back, and can't reach my DLSR and macro lens).

 

The bleached out bryopsis frond is on the bottom left of the chalice (Frag Zero).

[Enigma]

 

Browned out birdsnest, with GHA? The algae looks a lot finer in the photo than it does when I'm looking at it with the naked eye. It is quite a course algae. That is the area with the highest density.

 

While the birdsnest looks dreadful, it has regained a lot of tissue while I've had it (it was down to about 2/3rds). The browning of it due to the H202 dip hasn't stopped tissue regrowth, and the tips are quite green (despite what the photo would lead you to believe).

[Enigma]

I dosed 1ml/10 gallons yesterday and today. The Ducan tolerates this level. No sign of dinos. Cyano 75% gone. No sign of living bryopsis. GHA bleaching is from the tips down the shaft of the algae. I don't see any significant growth in it, either. Not all of it is bleaching yet, though.

 

Boosted my CUC yesterday with two more small Mexican Turbos, three small Spiney Astrea, and one little blue Tuxedo Urchin. Only the Urchin is eating the GHA (which is a pretty robust strain), whether it is bleached or not. He isn't eating it all the way down, either.

 

I have not manually removed anything. I want to see what happens with just the H202 and the CUC.

 

Birdsnest is a little more green today. Plating monti is still pretty much the same, but maybe a touch more green.

 

My spreadsheets are at work. I'll update those tomorrow.