This should offend everyone. An email from DT's Phytoplantkon co.

[flaunt]

oh and as a side note, i know this is preaching to the choir, but one of the great things about nano-reefs is that you are FORCED to be very careful about what you put in your aquarium since you're dealing with a very small space and water volume. hence, you're FORCED to do more research on coral species since any coral put in the tank will almost certainly be within reach of other corals. Same goes for fish. With nanos you must do your homework, with larger tanks you can be lazier (not LAZY, just not as vigilant). Kiss my arse anti-nano reefers! X)

[Spudds]

Having worked in the fish department of a PetSmart (I was a kid, I thought the business would be the same as at a real pet store) I know the frustration of people who come in and buy a 10 gallon tank and two Red-bellied Pacus the same day and won't be talked out of it. I'm sure he gets a lot of the same things and it gets very frustrating. The reply is terrible and full of misinformation, but what do we want? Blood?

 

Spudds.

[LiQuiD]

I think what we want is a reply something to the nature of "OK, I admit, I know nothing of nano reefs, I had no idea of this board nor the large amount of people who are successfully keeping these systems. I guess you learn something new everyday, you people have some very nice setups and I hope this takes the hobby to a new level. Again, I am sorry for my ignorance on this matter and hope you will see past that and forgive an old school mega reefer like myself"

 

Not what has come from him thus far. Yes, he has admited that he is kind of old school, sort of. But then it's right back to the product. As far as the LFS's screwing people, I can tell you this, if I wanted to rip someone off, I would go for the biggest most expensive system I could get them to buy. I mean think about it, if you want to make money, why would you talk someone into something that would barely get you one tenth of the profit. To everyone here who has a nano, if you owned a LFS and someone asked about them and was curious who was new to the hobby, would you not sell them one because they are a newbie or more so tell them they need to spend 10 times the amount of money for a larger system? No, you would not if you had morals, you would take the time and go with the nano that they were interested in and not go for the more money rip-off. Basically, I don't get the whole LFS is the problem thing.

 

In my opinion, the whole "everyone thinks they are a joke" thing was what it was, a shot at nano's.

[PFB]

PFB says: - I stand corrected!

All good points.

His reply sounds like he is trying to make good.

Keep in mind, emails, ipages, IM and posts some times come across different than how they were ment..... Give him the benefit of the doubt????

[MrConclusion]

I have a couple of comments here:

 

1. I can understand how this upsetting email might have come to be written. I know from my job than answering emails can get really tedious, and someone may have caught him at a bad time. Maybe they get a lot of emails from people who think they're real nano reefers, but are really just working to kill corals for under $200.

 

2. If you don't want to buy DT's anymore, try Marinesnow. I've been using it for 6 months now. My SPS, LPS, carnations, tube worms, zoos, scallops, oysters, and ricordias are thriving.

[ajroahkni]

Don't hurt me here, but maybe everything sprouted from Acoustic's opening one-liner: "Hi, I'm stupid."

 

Sorry Acoustic, you're not stupid, but DT came into the conversation hearing you say it as so.

[OscarBeast]

I will try to be clear about this again... It really doesn't matter if Acoustic was killing everything he added to his tank. People kill stuff in all size tanks. People stock animals that are not appropriate for the aquariums they own all the time. That does NOT mean that all tanks in that class or size are jokes or do not work.

 

I replied to what Niven said on Reefcentral, but I will post it again here:

 

Niven, whether or not that particular individual had a setup that worked or not isn't the issue here. Dennis did give some good information out in that email. That is not disputed.

 

If had he given that individual a stern lecture about that his particular setup, it would have been perfectly acceptable IMHO.

 

That email was fine up until the point that he said that knowledgeable reef keepers consider nano-reefs jokes and that they don't really work. This is simply not true and, again, is what that thread was about.

 

It should also be noted that the quality of his product was not what the discussion was about either.

[Acoustic]

OK , MAcnReef read the first post all the way. I was emailed that from DT. I did not email that to anyone duh!

 

Secondly, ajroahkni I said "Hi, I'm stupid" because I did not want to come off as a know it all reefer like him.

 

I just thought it was important to inform everyone of this companies position on your hobby. I myself will never buy DT from now on. I don't want to support a business that thinks of what I do is a joke.

[ajroahkni]

Acoustic

 

I thank you for bringing all of this up. In light of DT's off-color remarks, I will not use it either. Took alot for you to step up and say: "Hey buds, this product's F'd up"

 

Geez, I've even boycotted french fries in light of recent events...

 

You're not stupid, so don't ever again cut yourself off at the knees. You know enough and are the master of your domain, so you don't ever need to go bowing down to anyone - ESPECIALLY when you're the lord (customer) and he's the servant (retailer).

 

I say - in my own self-gratifying mental realm - that we boycott all matter that blatantly assumes that we're all know nothings. That means NO "Idiot's guide to...." books. Geez, that's a major peeve - why would anyone willingly buy anything that had a focus group of IDIOTS - and be proud of it? (I know DaveE will NOT title his book "The Idiot's Guide to Nano-Reefs" and I hope that Crakeur will not title his ultra-secret bomb book "The Idiot's Guide to ... [what Crak? - JudeoChristianity?]"

 

---

 

Soooo, let's level the playing field. How's about a concentrated email effort to carpet correspond with all manufacturer to figure out which ones are nano-conscientious/-friendly?

[Acoustic]

Very good idea!! Lets maintain a list on nano reef of retailers who have REAL knowledge of nano reefs.

[Xavier]

Nano-Reef's list of recommended sites is located here...

 

I read through the whole law suit issue about Petswarehouse.. one of the suits was against a site owner because of his list of links, and negative comments about that particular site..

[Crakeur]

Originally posted by ajroahkni

I hope that Crakeur will not title his ultra-secret bomb book "The Idiot's Guide to ... [what Crak? - JudeoChristianity?]"

 

Back to the drawing board.

 

 

I received a final email from Dennis this morning (that is when I checked my mail again) and he has received some serious hate emails from many of us. My intention of posting the two responses I received was to let everyone see the conversation that had begun. I think that he answered my questions and he did apologize for the nano joke reference. In the subsequent emails we discussed many topics that I didn't feel were in line with the thread. I will state again that he is a nice enough guy and that his actions, while wrong in my mind, are not the kind that should warrant hate email. If you want to complain to him, do so in a mature fashion and perhaps he will come to the boards, read up, check out our memeber's tanks, see this thread and post something regarding his comment. I will state again that this is exactly what I have asked of him. I will also state again that I am boycotting the product until he comes here. This does not, however, imply that we should all send him email telling him he's a jerk. He's not. He's a business man who made a mistake and admitted as much. I think that after reading all his hate mail, he probably figures there's little reason to come here and get blasted on the boards, which is sad.

 

Use DT's if you want, don't use DT's if you want. Up to you but there is no need to send emails that will do nothing other than give this guy the impression that we are a bunch of immature, obnoxious, kids with nothing better to do that hide behind our anonymity and call him names.

 

Crakeur's done preaching.

 

Now back to your regularly scheduled insanity.

[MacnReef]

Hey Acoustic,

What are you talking about?

OK , MAcnReef read the first post all the way. I was emailed that from DT. I did not email that to anyone duh!

Did I say that you emailed that to everyone? ???

[MacnReef]

Alright Guys and Gals, I received a reply for Dennis Targin. I will cut some of it out because it is VERY long.

 

"I have apologized several times to your fellow hobbyists who have all

conveyed to me their absolute hatred towards me and all I stand for. I can

only apologize so many times. Obviously I have not kept up with this

specialized part of the industry. So once again I apologize for my error......I do talk to a lot of store owners who have told

me that their customers have had poor success with the very small aquariums.

There is by the way a big difference between a 20 gallon and 5 gallon tank.

When I received the email in question I believed I was hearing from someone

who was sold that tank as there first and only tank. I was not advised about

any sump or refugium in the system. What I was referring to was only a 5

gallon tank with so many animals in it that I could see no long term

success. If I am wrong then I am wrong. Have you ever been wrong about

something?.....A conversation could have been going on where

one can more fully explain themselves with misunderstandings cleared up

quickly. With a conversation instead of hate filled emails someone can say

that they disagree and why and then someone else can learn from their

experience. That is all lost when email is misused by being made public.

I do work very hard to produce the very best product I can. I do this

without the financial rewards that companies who sell reef additives are

able to receive. My product actually cost something to produce unlike reef

additives that are just watered down chemicals. I do this because I have

high ethical standards and will not sell something I find worthless just to

make a fast buck. I must say that after today I wonder why I care at all.

I have received emails full of such hatred, threats and insults that I would

not be surprised if someone came over and shot me. ...Sincerely,

Dennis Tagrin"

 

Ok, I forgive the guy...I can understand that sometimes you say things in the heat of the moment. I do not understand why he would say such a thing to a customer but, he did and he apologized.

 

Thanx

[jimmie51]

I can understand his dissappointment and his regrets. I still think that there are two problems that are not being addressed by him or anyone else. First, the problem with the whole response is that it doesn't matter if he thought he was talking to a begginner or an experienced person such as himself. He still belittled a person that has an obvious interest in the hobby and is a potential customer regaurdless of his experience. There are many ways to provide information without insulting people or thier interests. IMO he basically responded the way Dave has responded to many noobs that come here. Actually it was prolly a little more friendly than Dave. How ever Dave is not talking to his customers, and he is not representing anyone other than himself when he comes here. As much as Dave can flame with the great ones, I find it very hard to believe that he would flame one of his customers like DT did. Second, the way I took what he said is that NANO"S ARE A JOKE. I'm not sure where I got that impression. Before he changed his tune and started to snivel and cry like a baby

 

"I must say that after today I wonder why I care at all. I have received emails full of such hatred, threats and insults that I would not be surprised if someone came over and shot me".

 

He was saying that the nano tank was the cause of the problem, not that you must be an experienced reef keeper to keep such a tank. I agree he is sorry and I agree that sending hate mail and acting like a twelve year old is just plain stupid. It only degrades the level of respect that all of you have worked so hard for as cutting edge reef keepers. It just seems to me that if he were as interested in the hobby as he claims that he would spend more time learing about the new advances that the hobby has made.

[jdiver]

He talks about his concern for all these irresponsible stores that sell tanks to people without providing the information necessary to be successful, and yet he has no problem selling his product to, and making money from, these very same stores. I asked him about that discrepancy, but got no response. I even asked him in what I thought was a dialog, and certainly was not one of the hate filled emails he refers to.

 

Another thing he said to me that was irritating was when I told him that based on his remarks I wouldn't be using his product, and his reply was "As far as your never using my product again, are you taking out your anger toward me on your animals?" First of all, he assumed I was angry when I was not. Secondly he then insults me again, by assuming that I am being neglectful of my animals. Thirdly, he acts as though there are no alternatives to DT's, when that is not the case.

 

Personally I'm done with the issue and dealing with Dennis or DT's in any way. The whole situation has been disappointing to me as a customer, a business owner, and a nano-reefer.

[MacnReef]

Originally posted by jdiver

Personally I'm done with the issue and dealing with Dennis or DT's in any way. The whole situation has been disappointing to me as a customer, a business owner, and a nano-reefer.

 

I agree, I told him I was done and I forgave him. I also stated that I would buy from him again...but I think after reading his reply over and over again. I will take my business elsewhere!

[Dave ESPI]

This has played out to have very interesting results.

 

The only issue I have is that Jimmy mentioned the fact that I flame people based on their "beginner status" : aka NOOBs ....

Before pointing fingers and calling me a noob ONLY flamer, you need to get your facts straight. I DO NOT TARGET ANYONE OF ANY TYPE CALIBER REEFER......

YOU ARE A BONE HEAD, I WILL CALL YOU ON IT AND EXPECT IT IN RETURN. period.

 

Back to the tpoic at hand.

 

In a way UP UNTILL THE LINE OF nano-reefs being a joke, DT's reply was very solid and I thought justified considering the information presented to him and the auspicions of someone being " Stupid".

While YES his product is good quality, Using it or not it is NOT the issue here. The ISSUE is that he mentioned US as a WHOLE ENTIRE COMMUNITY in relation to ANOTHER ENTIRE WHOLE COMMUNITY of reefers and called our aspect a joke.

 

THAT IS ALL HE NEEDS TO APOLOGIZE FOR. Had he ripped the ORIGINAL SENDER OF "Hi I'm Stupid" e-mail to DT, a new sphincter ring, he would have been completely right in doing so.

 

An E-mail that simply DROOLS daidie daidie daidie derrrrrr How much should I dose ? ??? with NO background info as to set up, contents, age, current bioload and other aditives being used are very important as informational tools that WERE NOT provided to give an acurate answer as to proper dose ratio That email having been posted or asked to me, or anyone, regardless of ability or knowledge BASED ON CONTENT AND ACTUAL TEXT OF THE QUESTION.... would have easily been a "You deserve a siesure" post reply from me and without a doubt laughed at by others and

been completely in the right doing so.....

 

D Tagrin was actualy being "NICE" ON A NON PROFESSIONAL LEVEL as I am sure he gets that question a LOT in his e-mail box.

His apology was also ok, BUT as soon as his e-mail turned into a sales pitch (and his MANY REPLIES TO US), the levels of sincerity are lost.

 

Simply put he could have responded "I'm sorry and my words were out of line and misconstrued". Good luck with your mini-reefs and please by all means continue to use DT's Plankton if you so choose.

Sincerely, DT.

 

END OF STORY. PERIOD.

 

THAT would have ended all the hate mail, and done less damage.

 

Just my take on the issue at this point.

 

ps: some of you really need flaming lessons LOL.

 

 

its pathetic... like fish out of water... HAHAHAHA

 

J/K......

[Crakeur]

Dave, I never got a sales pitch from him. His emails to me actually never mentioned his product. Like I said, I got my apology and had a very nice conversation with him afterward. I have nothing against him or his product. I still think he should come here but that is his decision. I will use up the bottle of DT's that I still have and decide what to do after that. I agree that the only thing that he did that was out of line was that one paragraph where he called nanos jokes. So be it.

 

time to move on folks. Find a new reason to be ####ed off, this one ain't worth it anymore.

[MacnReef]

I agree with crakeur!

 

I may or may not use his product but this discussion is over. I, like everyone else, was very upset and mad by his words, but apologized!

 

End Of Discussion!

[Niven]

Originally posted by MacnReef

Niven, so you just registered today!  How convenient!  Sticking up for DT like that makes me think you are him or one of his little buddies he told to get on a defend him.

 

You caught me:P

 

I've met Dennis at two different seminars. I am not a good friend of his or even a customer of his. I don't use his product, I have used it and think it's a superior product to Kent or any other. I just don't use any phyto products. I actually think I get phyto from my different zones in my tank, but that's another discussion.

 

flaunt and everyone, you must realize that everyone out there that sets up a saltwater tank of any size does not take the time like we do to read up on what they are doing. Some people actually set up their tanks following what their LFS says, and they don't always get a good LFS if you can believe that. I would say that 50-60% of the tanks sold to customers are taken down within the first year. I would also say that the reason they are taken down is because the customer didn't do their research and setup the tank according to their all knowing LFS. They bought $30-40 maybe even $100 fish and they died. The LFS sells them a UV Filter or copper....or whatever they can, but since the system is still running on an undergravel filter or someother inferior filtration device, their fish still die. Whalla (is that how you spell whalla?) they are out of the hobby after killing 5-10 fish and 5-10 corals.

You would be surprised how many people think just cause they spent $1500 on a setup, they got the best thing out there and there is know one that can tell them different. They come into your store and brag about how their duel NO 4 feet bulbs are really bright . Their zoomed power heads are blowing their fish around. It gets annoying. I always tried to bite my tongue and steer them in the right direction. Knowing that there are plenty of other stores out there that are just trying to sell something. This in my mind is the same situation Dennis has run into many times. It can be very frustrating. He spoke (typed) without thinking that this is just another person that a LFS has suckered into buying another tank and that there are people out there that could be successfully keeping nano tanks. (on a side note, if you talk to many of the "experts", if you want to call them that, in the hobby, success in reefkeeping is not just survival, it's getting an organism to grow to mature size and then sexually reproduce, I'm not sure as I've not researched nanos, but I don't think many of the organisms that you keep in your nanos are able to grow to mature size and reproduce. Yes, I know, Clowns and/or gobies can be bred in smaller tanks, but not corals or clams. So in that sense, I guess nanos could be considered a joke)

Dennis made a mistake. I don't doubt that, but if you put it in the same context that I have tried to explain, maybe you can understand where he's coming from.

JMO,

Niven

[Stew]

well, let's see......

 

about two pages and 40 posts ago, i mentioned that the man had offered an apology for his ignorance of the facts. Now - that apology does not excuse him for not knowing and blurting.....however........... How many times can one person apologize? one or 101, it's still the same apology.

 

Like Dave said----if that question had been posted "HERE" in exactly the same form - the guy would have been walking around for days with a utility pole up his a$$ - well, at least he would have felt like it, anyway!!!!!

 

So, OK, peeps...... give him credit for admitting he was wrong.....not wrong about tank sizes, etc......BUT "WRONG" that nanos are a joke. what more can he do? send all a free bottle of DT's????

 

Also----- please remember........many stated how his actions and reactions reflect on his business/company------well, all that mail and insulting reflect on NANO-REEF.COM and all of us here.

 

stick to your guns about wanting respect and informed opinions but---- maybe some people ( read that hate e-mailers) need to start offering up some apologies of there own now.

 

my advice only------ and probably only worth what U paid for it!

 

**edited......

 

PS if we want respect for our hobby, our site and forums and for ourselves - let's step up and act responsible and mature - forgive----give a second chance ---- earn the respect. if we build it (respect) -- Maybe HE will come!!!!

[OscarBeast]

*Sigh*

 

1) Again, the whole noob thing wasn't what the thread was about, so please drop it. People kill stuff in all size tanks and it ####es everyone off. This isn't disputed. It was the fact that DT said nanos don't work and are considered a joke. That is ONLY problem people have had with the email. Dennis could have thrashed him around verbally and nobody here would have really cared if the guy deserved it.

 

2) How many people do you know actually have corals or clams in their tanks that successfully reproduce through spawning in any size tank? If your definition of successful reef keeping is getting corals and clams to reproduce through spawning, then you will find that 99.9% of ALL tanks are failures or "jokes".

 

I don't doubt that, but if you put it in the same context that I have tried to explain, maybe you can understand where he's coming from.

Again, you missed the whole point of the thread. Your context has no relevance nor is it an excuse for the two things said that people have a problem with.

[Dave ESPI]

THIS THREAD NEEDS.................

 

 

???

 

 

 

seriously.... a good thread, but becomming unfounded.

 

ps: Ill take a free bottle plz/ty LOLz

 

 

time to move on.... get things back to normal.....

get back to hating me HAHAHAH.

sike.

[GilliganFx]

Its somewhat ammusing that anyone would be "mad" and "insulted" after reading his orignal email... The guy is allowed his opinion, and should not have to apologize for it. Anyone who refuses to buy DT based on the comments of one employee is ignorant and probably someone who has written an immature letter back to him. If I said "xenia's suck; they are way too hard to keep for an aquarium", I wonder how much hate mail I would get from some.. (yes I have had great success w/ xenia but have read many articles saying they are hard to keep in small aquariums.. maybe I should write hate mail to the authors of those articles).. I work at a Fish Store and dealing with the nature of the email "I'm Stupid" I would have assumed he is too "stupid" to sustain a clam in a 5 gallon aquarium.. its amazing that his general comment about nano-reefs can get half of the people on this board outrages and hunched over their keyboards crying (yes, that is an exageration).. the guy is entitled to his opinion and has proved more mature and intelligent than most of you.