This should offend everyone. An email from DT's Phytoplantkon co.

[jdiver]

If I spoke to my customers in such a condescending way, I wouldn't have any customers left. Being 50 is not an excuse for being ignorant. Heck, my father is 54, and he maintains a successful nano reef.

 

If anyone is interested in my reply:

 

To Whom It May Concern,

 

Based on this ignorant, condescending, and arrogant reply regarding an inquiry into your product:

 

“A 5 gallon tank may be sufficient to maintain a small coral best if it were a soft coral polyp such a small group of mushroom polyps. In reality a nano reef tank is considered a joke by anyone who knows anything about reef keeping. They are something that people want, so its made and sold. That does not mean that they really work. One rule of aquarium keeping that is very true for reef tanks is THE LARGER THE SYSTEM -THE BETTER.”

 

I will no longer be using DT's. What I find to be completely astonishing and inexcusable is that this reply was sent to someone who is a customer of yours. As an owner of my own business, I can not even fathom speaking to any of my customers in such a condescending and offensive manner. If I did, then I surely would not have any business left.

 

I currently have three nano reef systems set up, a 5 gallon, a 7 gallon, and a 15 gallon, and maintain 4 other systems of similar size for friends and family. All are thriving. If anything, nano reef systems provide significantly more challenge, and require significantly more time and knowledge, than the "LARGER THE BETTER SYSTEMS" since there is far less room for error and stupid mistakes.

 

I assure you that nano reef tanks are not considered a joke by thousands of people who know a great deal about reef keeping. I'm inclined to think it is in fact those like yourself who possess little knowledge about the latest reef keeping techniques who think nano reef tanks are a joke. Might I suggest, for the purposes of good business if nothing else, that you visit http://www.nano-reef.com/ and educate yourself a bit more on nano reefkeeping.

 

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of course, but as an owner/employee of a business you have a responsibility to understand the industry and understand your customer base. You clearly understand neither in its entirety, and I can assure you that as a result your customer base has just dwindled.

 

Sincerely,

James

 

P.s.- Please don't bother to insult me by sending me the same cc'ed reply you have sent to others who have voiced their opinion on this matter.

[spoondigity]

My response...

 

Sigh...another case of someone trashing new techniques that they probably haven't experienced extensively. I am not going to sit here and trash you like you did to this poor consumer when he simply asked a question. Your comments aren't worth trashing because, from your short sighted and harsh remarks to customer, your thinking is obviously antiquated and beyond its useful years in the industry. You need to get out more often my friend.

 

NEWS FLASH!!!!!: New slogan found for people who are too lazy to care for their tanks and explore new forms of reefing. "In reality a nano reef tank is considered a joke by anyone who knows anything about reef keeping. THE LARGER THE SYSTEM-THE BETTER"

[Crakeur]

follow up email garners an apology for calling nano reefs a joke.

 

My aggravation concerning the sale of nanno tanks is that many store owners are selling these aquariums to first time reef keepers, I feel because they are less expensive and easy to sell. I do feel that a larger not necessarily large aquarium would contribute to the success of the new hobbyists. There is truth to my statement if you consider that the smaller the volume of water contained in any reef system is, the more likely that an event such as the death of an animal, mistake or equipment problem will have serious effects. My comment about nanno tanks being a joke was obviously improper and for that single statement I do apologize.

As far as your comment about growth, the animal that bothered me in a 5 gallon tank was the clam. You must agree that this is a very small environment for an animal that is at a stage of its life when it is most dependent on filter feeding.

Dennis

[PFB]

So, you all pruchase like one bottle a year.

What does he care? He most likely sells cases a year to folks with larger tanks.

He just lost, say, 20 bottles of product, I am sure he is not loosing sleep. BTW, I am on your side with this issue...

[Crakeur]

PFB, I disagree with you. Every customer counts and most of us buy (bought) DT's from stores. If that store sells less product, they order less (or stop carrying the product altogether) and the company is then hit with smaller orders which means smaller profit.

 

I have three tanks that I used DT's on. A total of almost 260 gallons of water. A hell of a lot more than one bottle a year.

[Stew]

Originally posted by Crakeur

My comment about nanno tanks being a joke was obviously improper and for that single statement I do apologize.  

Dennis

 

It sure took a lot of obvious pounding on his "HAT", but should some credit be given because he did offer an apology for his asinine mouth blurt??

 

AH....maybe not, maybe so.

 

still-----hit 'em where it hurts, peeps.......IN THE WALLET/BANK ACCOUNT!!!!!!!!

 

my 1/2 cent!!!!

 

My opinion----- and remember -- it's only worth what you paid for it!!!

[Crakeur]

Stew, I'm not looking at it as success. Pesonally, it shocks me that someone in the aquaria field is that closed minded about anything that goes against convention. I would like him to come to these boards and read a few threads and understand how serious most of us are with our joke of a hobby. His comments about how the nanos being a joke derived from his feeling that those little nanos in fish stores were sold mostly to beginners and that they were only made for sale because it was a way to get more coin from the customer (I'm assuming this from what I read). What he doesn't see is that many of us have had serious success with these tanks and that his concern for animals, such as clams, outgrowing the tanks and, therefore, not being appropriate in small tanks is unwarranted. My clam, should it outgrow my tank, will find a home in a larger tank. My hippo, when I finally go and get it, will find a home in a larger tank. Most of us have exit strategies for any animals that might outgrow the home we provide it. Many of us take this hobby seriously and some are very passionate about the hobby and take it personally when an outsider knocks us or the hobby.

 

For success to be had, I will have a case of DT's at my door by Friday. no, not really. For success to be had, I would say that Mr. Tagrin should post on these boards that he was wrong and that, after reading the message boards and viewing various member's tanks, he has been proven wrong in his assumption. (I told him this in my emails).

 

I'm sure he will check out the boards, if he hasn't already, as he has been inundated with links to various threads and his curiousity will get the better of him. Until then, let the boycott continue.

 

Now, to find the website that has my replacement for DT's.

[TiGs]

Funny thing, I was going to purchase some DT after work today. Not anymore.

[johnny]

Hey Dave, long time no talk. How's the RPI tank going? When are we gonna take a trip down to NYC or Jersey?

 

 

I'm sorta happy something like this happened, DTs is kinda a waste compared to other foods like golden pearls and what not... only good thing about DTs is that usually a petstore within the immediate area will have it, where as GPs you need to mail order.

 

Nick

[OscarBeast]

The reply that I got:

 

My comment about nanno-reefs being a joke was obviously wrong and for that comment I do apologize.  I do however feel that the marketing or I should say over marketing of these aquariums to first time reef keepers is resulting in a lot of dead animals and ex-reef keepers.   New hobbyists have a desire to quickly fill up there aquarium and it is up to the store owner to hold them back.  Unfortunately this usually does not happen, not only because the store owner does not tell the customer to hold off but because the hobbyists does not want to listen.  A larger aquarium offers a margin for mistakes, deaths and equipment problems that a small system does not.  A better way of saying this may have been that the smaller the system is the more experienced the hobbyists should be.  I am not advocating the sale of huge aquariums to every reef keeper but it would be better if the beginner starts of with something that is large enough to afford some margin for the inevitable problems that will cause most if not all new hobbyists to just quit.

Dennis

 

 

Oh and BTW PFB, many of the people that own nano-reefs also have larger aquarium systems. It wasn't like he was insulting the people that "only" have small reefs, he was insulting anyone that that owned one. Even if people with only nano-reefs were insulted, a lot of little sales adds up... Word of things like this tend to spread quickly. Also, a few people like Dave influence the purchases of a large number of others. There should be plenty reason for the loss of sleep.

[Dave ESPI]

sup nick. RPI = Nightmare, but thats another tirade in another thread lol.... Soon Nick, Very soon a trip to Global Marine..

 

Yeah.... having seen his reply to my less than favorable , yet I believe well written original E-mail, I am less likely now to reccomend his product.

FWIW, LIVE PHYTOPLANKTON only has an active shelf life of 3 months, and nutritionaly declines rapidly.

It is best to buy in small batches unless you get a bulk quantity (which is more cost effective) and dole it out to fellow local reefers and use it quickly.

 

Side note.. Funny..... My reply was first to be seen, and used as the reply weapon....

One small step for brave man..... one giant leep for a community......

 

Ohh, But "why is dave an ass?" = EDIT: "Why do we love Dave."

[johnny]

hahah yeah not so sure I miss the political mess of the RPI aquarium... "fix it, but no you can't spend any of the budget we gave you"

 

I'm definitely up for a trip to global whenever you are, my two tanks are empty (well a couple of fish) and there are NO FRICKIN SALTWATERS STORES down here in the hick hillbillies of scranton PA.

 

Well there is ONE, he's got like 10 ten gallon tanks and gets in like 10 fish each month.... but then again he was also selling magenda slender anthias as purple chromis for $3.99 instead of the usual $40+ so I guess I can't complain about my new school of anthias

 

Oh question on this thread....

 

This guy who responded... who is he? If he's just some min. wage worker for the company, I wouldnt boycott the company because of one stupid employee. I would find out who someone higher than him is and complain about his public relations.

 

Nick

[LiQuiD]

Well I see this is moving along.

A sales rep for the company sent an email that was posted. What can the company do? Sue their own sales rep for knocking nano reefs and possibly causing a dip in sales due to a boycott?

Crak, I don't know, there are only 2 people in the contact list and, well, Dennis Tagrin Dennis Tagrin, DT's, you see what I'm getting at here.

 

As far as links to phyto cultivating, I do not remember them but I have seen a few and yes it is very easy.

 

In fact, it is basically just that, water, light and starter culture. I saw a site where a person made like 10 one gallon bags of this in a day or so. I mean , has anyone looked at Xavier's tank, he can't stop the phyto from growing, visibility at one point was less then an inch through the green lagoon. Hey Xav, you should start filling up some bottles and selling at half the cost of the OTHER guys. If someone wanted to, they could easily cultivate this stuff by the hundreds of gallons daily VERY easily. Hmmm, got me thinking, how does MD's half price Phytoplankton sound.

[Crakeur]

I realized that after typing the post but, taken in context, I was merely explaining how a lawsuit wouldn't fly based on the email sent by an employee (in this case the pres. - assuming DT is the DT hehe).

 

I have actually been emailing back and forth with him. Hate to say it, but he seems like a nice enough guy. I think he was just expressing his "old school" belief about small tanks. I have repeatedly requested he come here and read the thread and post in his defense but he seems content to let us say what we want.

 

I am going to do a search tonight regarding other sources of phyto - I think I have one bookmarked at home.

[jimmie51]

Ya know the main problem is that all he is doing now is covering himself. If he really felt like this he would said just what he said in oscarbeast's reply the first time. It sounds to me like somebody is squirming a little bit. I will also say this. I am a pretty thick headed Marine, and have always believed the "bigger is better" theory. But after coming here and learning from all of you, I was able to open my mind and chamge my views. The problem with this is he is supposed to know his customers and be up on the most cutting edge things going on in the industry so he can stay ahead of the game for his company. But instead he condemns the new school reef keepers and allienates them from his product. (doing my best impersonation of Red from That 70s show) What a Dumb ass!

[Dave ESPI]

A. Calfo and J. Wilkersons books have AWESOME pages about it.

[Crakeur]

Originally posted by jimmie51

I am a pretty thick headed Marine, and have always believed the "bigger is better" theory.  But after coming here and learning from all of you, I was able to open my mind and chamge my views.  

 

Jimmie, so good to see you finally accepted your "shortcomings."

 

Sorry pal, I couldn't resist.

 

I disagree that he is covering his ass in any way. If you read the email with the apology, all he apologizes for is the statement that nano-reefs are considered a joke. He is actually no at all apologetic and, in his subsequent emails, which aren't worth posting as they have veered off topic a bit, he doesn't seem to be covering for anything. Just talking about reef keeping, the hobby, the stores the merchants, the state of the business etc.

 

Anyway, he still hasn't won me back into his product's arms. that will come with a posting here, after he has perused the boards and learned the ways of the joke reefs. Crap, I mean nano reefs. (I'm off to register joke-reef.com).

[jimmie51]

Originally posted by Crakeur

Jimmie, so good to see you finally accepted your "shortcomings."

 

Sorry pal, I couldn't resist.

 

 

Damn Crak, busted.

[MacnReef]

Here is my response!

------------------------------

 

I seen your response on 5 gallon tanks to a fellow nano-reefer, Acoustics.

 

your response:

"A 5 gallon tank may be sufficient to maintain a small coral best if it were a soft coral polyp such a small group of mushroom polyps. In reality a nano reef tank is considered a joke by anyone who knows anything about reef keeping. They are something that people want, so its made and sold. That does not mean that they really work. One rule of aquarium keeping that is very true for reef tanks is THE LARGER THE SYSTEM -THE BETTER"

 

If you look at most of the people getting into reefs, they are 55g and smaller. People that rely on water volume instead of knowledge and know how, ARE the ignorant ones. I hope that the owners of DT's are very proud of you because there will be no more of your product put into my tank. And I can tell you from a board I am a member of, you will be missing out on a HUGE market!

 

Your response was VERY rude and not needed! I can tell you that I tried my hands at a 65g and was unsuccessful in keeping the corals and parameters at a desirable level. So I went to nanos after some research. I started off with a 10g nano with a 250W 14k metal halide. I had NO algae growth, I was able to keep my calcium level over 425 and circulation was desirable to all corals in the tank. I decided that I wanted more room to add more corals so I upgraded to a 20H. I now run a total of 240W of light, I turn the tank over 32.6 times per hour and I have refugium that is 50% the total display tank. NOT MANY BIG REEFERS CAN SAY THAT! So bigger is not better. The only reason that I could see you saying that bigger is better because evaporation in a small tank is more damaging than evaporation in a larger tank. BUT, I have an automatic top-off switch.

 

I am very ASHAMED at you.

 

Thanks,

Mike R

 

Will will find a picture of my 20H. Now, tell me NANO's are successful!

[Niven]

He emailed someone who he thought had gone into a chain pet store and saw a nano tank and said, "That's so cool! I'm going to put that in my kids room!".

If you have ever met Dennis, you would realize he is very enthusiastic about the hobby. He gets really worked up about companies that promote products that are TRASH, and I'm sure we've all walked in and seen a Nano in an LFS. I used to work at a LFS, the owner would sell anyone a Nano if they had the money. If someone came to you and said,"I have a 5 gallon tank with a Maxima in it." What would be your first thoughts? My first thought would be that the darn Pet World down the street sold that to them, at a ridiculous price and told them it would be easy to take care of. Yeah, it didn't come across right for Dennis, but you can't jump to conclusions about written words.

JMT,

Niven

 

Who else sells a better mass produced product anyway??

[MacnReef]

Niven, so you just registered today! How convenient! Sticking up for DT like that makes me think you are him or one of his little buddies he told to get on a defend him.

 

Look, I don't care who you are or who he is, there is no need to tell people that nanos are a joke without asking/finding out how long he has been in the hobby.

 

I disagree that nanos are more difficult. I feel that if you set-up a 75g tank and get descent equip, then you get a 20H with all the best equip from lighting to circulation. No matter how long you have been in the hobby...the nano will do better!

[Crakeur]

Dennis and I discussed the issues associated with pawning off nanos (or shall we call them jokes?) to beginners and I agree that that is a major mistake. Everytime some noob pops on here and says he has all the equipment and he needs to know how to install the live rock or some other inane question, we jump all over the guy. Sadly, Dennis did just that only he did it to a customer of his, which was a mistake. His referring to nano reefs as a joke was uncalled for and he apologized for it.

 

I do feel that he explained himself to me but I suggested he come here and read up a bit and learn that there are many very successful reefs smaller than 5 gallons (shot glass tank anyone?) and he should check out the site and perhaps come to this thread, after doing so.

 

Sadly he either isn't going to do that, or he came here posed as someone else (Niven perhaps?) and defended his actions. Either way, the issue is dead as far as I am concerned. time to move on with my life and find me some new sources for the green goo.

[jdiver]

Originally posted by Niven

you can't jump to conclusions about written words.  

Funny, that seems to be exactly what Dennis did, and worse.

[Spudds]

"Niven, so you just registered today! How convenient! Sticking up for DT like that makes me think you are him or one of his little buddies he told to get on a defend him."

 

This very well may be the case, but that doesn't make what he is saying any less valid. It actually makes it more valid as he implies right in his response that he knows Dennis or has interacted with him a number of times.

 

Spudds.

[flaunt]

what a #### poor way to cover one's ass: trying to say that he has issues with "inexperienced reefers" having nano-reefs as their first tanks... i have only one tank, my 10g nano. i've only ever had one tank, my 10g nano. i still have my 10g nano after a year and a half and it's doing better than ever with 10-15 coral species and a fish. I LEARNED ON THIS TANK. nobody pawned it off on me, nobody tricked me into setting it up. to suggest otherwise is to accuse me of being a stupid idiot without a brain of my own. my father has a large tank and asks ME for help, the lowly little nano-only reefer :*(