Statics Reefer 170

[boscoT]

When I started out we used raw dead shrimp and let it rot for a few weeks.  But we also had unlimited access to live Fiji rock for cycling as well.  When I got back into this hobby after 12 years recently, I was shocked with the live rock situation.  When I began setting up and requiring life rock, I learned about ammonia and bacteria for cycling the tank.  So that was the direction that I went.  I think it helped me keep my uglies down to a minimal so far... but who knows

[Staticmoves]

25 minutes ago, boscoT said:

When I started out we used raw dead shrimp and let it rot for a few weeks.  But we also had unlimited access to live Fiji rock for cycling as well.  When I got back into this hobby after 12 years recently, I was shocked with the live rock situation.  When I began setting up and requiring life rock, I learned about ammonia and bacteria for cycling the tank.  So that was the direction that I went.  I think it helped me keep my uglies down to a minimal so far... but who knows

I prefer the fish, live bottled bacteria and live sand method.

A small metered amount of ammonia from one small fish is just enough to feed the bottled bacterial, while new bacteria from the fishes gut and 💩 slowly establishes on the surfaces.

as long as you supplement, the tank won’t see high enough ammonia to disturb the fish. Especially with the live sand.

now if you were to just toss a fish into a tank bare bottom tank with new rock and no bacteria…. Things may get a little dicey and unpleasant. 

 

i did the shrimp method with my first tank.

it turned out great too….

 

 

[mcarroll]

On 12/2/2023 at 7:05 PM, Staticmoves said:

six line

This is not to say you shouldn't have a lid if you think it makes sense (do what makes sense!), but "for fun" try to google instances of six-lines jumping even when a top was on the tank.   They are the #1 maestro's of jumping out of a tank, covered or not – up there with eels.  I've had other wrasses perform "miraculous" escapes as well, but none seem so eager as the six-line.  (Makes some sense when you consider the type of fish they are and lifestyle they lead in the wild.  They're probably good at hunting in tide pools.)

 

On 12/2/2023 at 8:20 PM, Staticmoves said:

Braaap, you may cycle your tank anyway you would like.

and so will I.

this exact fish has started and homed in 4 of our tanks.

he’s happy and healthy.

happy reefing Braaap.

So-called fishless cycling has become somewhat of a.....let's call it a "rigid community standard" lately.  🐕ma

 

It used to be fringe...not sure when it "took over"....but take over it has.  To the point that the dude (Dr Tim) who patented the modern bacterial supplement blend needs an FAQ on his site to tell folks that "fishless cycling isn't necessary"...

Quote

Can One & Only be used for fishless cycling?

Yes, but there is no real reason to do fishless cycling with One & Only.[....]

and that his product was kind of invented specifically to eliminate this issue...

Quote

Note: The fishless cycling method was developed before the invention of DrTim’s Aquatics One & Only Live Nitrifying Bacteria, which effectively eliminates the possibility of high ammonia and nitrite during cycling when used correctly.[....]

 

🤷‍♂️ (So goes the internet?  ...modern life?)

 

I could be wrong, but I think some folks might not even believe in fish cycling anymore.   Just for those "non-believers", I have photographic proof:

Fish DO cycle....tho maybe only in countries where cycling is more common than it is here in the US?

 

🤪

 

At least with a reef tank, avoiding the ammonia spike is the best option (ie not causing one).  Avoidance is not difficult to achieve.  (Possible to screw up though...as anything is.)

 

For reference, @Staticmoves is avoiding the ammonia spike in at least two ways that we know of:  1) by having one relatively small fish in a relatively big tank, which prevents ammonia concentration by dillution AND 2) by pre-seeding the tank with a full population of nitrifying bacteria, which avoids the 0-day problem of starting with "no bacteria" and the ensuing 30-40 day grow-in cycle that would otherwise naturally take place.  (He may also be taking other measures we don't know about.)

 

Either of those options could be sufficient.  Together they make for a pretty sure-fire method for cycling without a detectable ammonia spike.  The only thing "more" you could really do is add a Seachem AmmoAlert for observation, "just in case".  Certainly optional, but a cheap insurance policy if you wanted to look at it that way...and way better than running an ordinary ammonia test kit.  👍

 

BTW, if you want to know about toxicity of ammonia you might find in a test (test kits test for NH4), then you need a conversion chart or a different ammonia test kit than we typically use...you'd need to know the NH3 level instead of NH4.  Conversion charts work as l long as you know the pH and water temperature, along with NH4 from something like an API test kit.  Charts can be found in the academic literature (on Google)....even API has a copy on their blog.  The reference from the API article is solid:
 

Quote

A lethal poisoning level for the unionized (NH3) form is 1.00mg/l; a sub-lethal level is 0.05mg/l (Noga, E.J., (1996) Fish Disease, diagnosis and treatment. p 62-66.).

You can get a solid idea from the chart as to what levels of NH4, Temp and pH you'd need to see on your tests before you'd have ammonia poisoning to worry about.  

 

For example, most tanks peak at about 7.8 pH and 79ºF, so (from the linked H4->NH3 chart) ammonia (NH4) levels below 1.4 ppm would be relatively safe (sub-lethal in effect, or less).  

 

Most hobbyists watching something like an Ammo Alert (which seems to read in NH3, unlike most hobbyist ammonia tests), would take action long before levels reached 1.4 ppm on an NH4 test kit....corresponding roughly to the ALARM stage of the Ammo Alert:

A pointer to @seabass's write-up "A Look at Ammonia" makes a good finish for this.  Ammonia is a bit complicated, to say the least.  So it's worth the time to study it a bit.

 

[Staticmoves]

3 hours ago, mcarroll said:

This is not to say you shouldn't have a lid if you think it makes sense (do what makes sense!), but "for fun" try to google instances of six-lines jumping even when a top was on the tank.   They are the #1 maestro's of jumping out of a tank, covered or not – up there with eels.  I've had other wrasses perform "miraculous" escapes as well, but none seem so eager as the six-line.  (Makes some sense when you consider the type of fish they are and lifestyle they lead in the wild.  They're probably good at hunting in tide pools.)

 

So-called fishless cycling has become somewhat of a.....let's call it a "rigid community standard" lately.  🐕ma

 

It used to be fringe...not sure when it "took over"....but take over it has.  To the point that the dude (Dr Tim) who patented the modern bacterial supplement blend needs an FAQ on his site to tell folks that "fishless cycling isn't necessary"...

and that his product was kind of invented specifically to eliminate this issue...

 

🤷‍♂️ (So goes the internet?  ...modern life?)

 

I could be wrong, but I think some folks might not even believe in fish cycling anymore.   Just for those "non-believers", I have photographic proof:

Fish DO cycle....tho maybe only in countries where cycling is more common than it is here in the US?

 

🤪

 

At least with a reef tank, avoiding the ammonia spike is the best option (ie not causing one).  Avoidance is not difficult to achieve.  (Possible to screw up though...as anything is.)

 

For reference, @Staticmoves is avoiding the ammonia spike in at least two ways that we know of:  1) by having one relatively small fish in a relatively big tank, which prevents ammonia concentration by dillution AND 2) by pre-seeding the tank with a full population of nitrifying bacteria, which avoids the 0-day problem of starting with "no bacteria" and the ensuing 30-40 day grow-in cycle that would otherwise naturally take place.  (He may also be taking other measures we don't know about.)

 

Either of those options could be sufficient.  Together they make for a pretty sure-fire method for cycling without a detectable ammonia spike.  The only thing "more" you could really do is add a Seachem AmmoAlert for observation, "just in case".  Certainly optional, but a cheap insurance policy if you wanted to look at it that way...and way better than running an ordinary ammonia test kit.  👍

 

BTW, if you want to know about toxicity of ammonia you might find in a test (test kits test for NH4), then you need a conversion chart or a different ammonia test kit than we typically use...you'd need to know the NH3 level instead of NH4.  Conversion charts work as l long as you know the pH and water temperature, along with NH4 from something like an API test kit.  Charts can be found in the academic literature (on Google)....even API has a copy on their blog.  The reference from the API article is solid:
 

You can get a solid idea from the chart as to what levels of NH4, Temp and pH you'd need to see on your tests before you'd have ammonia poisoning to worry about.  

 

For example, most tanks peak at about 7.8 pH and 79ºF, so (from the linked H4->NH3 chart) ammonia (NH4) levels below 1.4 ppm would be relatively safe (sub-lethal in effect, or less).  

 

Most hobbyists watching something like an Ammo Alert (which seems to read in NH3, unlike most hobbyist ammonia tests), would take action long before levels reached 1.4 ppm on an NH4 test kit....corresponding roughly to the ALARM stage of the Ammo Alert:

A pointer to @seabass's write-up "A Look at Ammonia" makes a good finish for this.  Ammonia is a bit complicated, to say the least.  So it's worth the time to study it a bit.

 

Great post, and true dedication.

I like it.

have a quick peek at the top right hand of the tank in my second last posted picture….😎

I have a feeling not many people have what it takes to Johnny 1 up your posts…..😁

[banasophia]

Hi there. Totally popping in briefly cuz I started a new job a few weeks ago and I’m slammed with work so barely have time to keep up with reefing posts, but wanted to chime in… I didn’t read everything but I saw braaap’s concern… the key here that braaap may have missed is that it looks like you used bottled bacteria… so if that’s the case and you used a reliable brand of bottled bacteria like Fritz or BioSpira, it’s not an old school fish-in cycle where you’re starting with nothing (which is when we worry about the fish)… with a good bottled bacteria, tons of nitrifying bacteria have already been added so we don’t need to wait for them to build up from nearly nothing as in a traditional cycle. 
 

I always do my starts like this. I do usually use more than one source of beneficial bacteria (NutriSeawater, live sand, BioSpira) just to be extra safe in case one of the sources was damaged by temperature extremes during shipping/storage. And I do use an ammonia badge to keep an eye out for an unexpected ammonia spike.

 

Your tank looks nice… looking forward to following along. 

 

 

[Staticmoves]

-Week 2 update…..

-all boring again… 👍

-temp 77.5F.

-Alk 140ppm, 2.8 meq, 7.8 dkh.

-Salt, coral pro @ 1.0245 ( low alk no lights on )

-phos 0.13ppm 

don’t have PH probe installed yet, will get on it. ( ordered new probes, just arrived.)

 

[Staticmoves]

Week three update.

still boring, though I did assemble and install my mesh top.

Added two fire fish and 250ml of Fritz Zyme 9 bacteria. ( Fire fish ate well today, both pellets and flakes.)

Bought new probes for the apex, and will install this evening or tomorrow.

Lights still out, and will be for a while yet.

will dose a bag of copepod’s next weekend.

 

[Staticmoves]

Started breaking in the skimmer today. Choke wide open and drain tube open to filter.

will run it this way for two weeks.

[boscoT]

Looking good.  It’s so clean!!

[ml86743]

Dang can't wait to see how this fills in!!!

[Staticmoves]

Skimmer leveled out today.

still running choke wide open and drain tube open for another week.

tossed in two of my red leg hermits and a Pom Pom crab to start.

[Staticmoves]

Fire fish both park there fin’s in this crevice. Fits the two of them perfect.

its funny when both heads are poking out.

one of the fire fish lost his dorsal fin when blindly dashing into a new hole on day one. The stump is still there, so it should grow back.

was pondering modding my original Red Sea ATO into a fuge so it’s ready to roll, if and when needed down the road. Thought it may be an idea to turn it on first for a few weeks before lights go on.

lights on is a few months down the road still.

that being said I will be looking at six or seven smaller fish going in this tank eventually. Now I do have a good skimmer, so besides the pre light up of the main tank, not sure I would need the refugium. There are benefits and pros and cons. I like the idea of having a pod hotel.

 

[Staticmoves]

Week 4 update, still boring, so I’m going to enjoy a coffee.

all inhabitants are happy, and I got around to installing my PH probe.

went to check ALK again as I did not believe last result, still bogus this time though I thought I’d check the reagent.  Yep, expired in 2022 and a little crusty.

will have to hit the LFS tomorrow and fix that.

Pom poms anemones have doubled in size and appear healthy.

[Fishy Guy]

Everything is looking good and that whole build is so clean! I look forward to following along. 

[Staticmoves]

Say hello to “Strange Brew” for all you 40 year old plus Canadians.

AKA “Brewster”. 
I know. Had to hit the Canadian thing hard here with the Plaid jacket on the fish.

and if you Americans out there have not watched strange brew the movie yet, get on it!

Skimmer is now tuned to pull.

[Staticmoves]

I usually get away with this for about 10 minutes before the kids find me and divulge my location.

[mcarroll]

Sometimes we take what we can get!  🙂 👍

[Fishy Guy]

Love that hawkfish! How is he getting along with everyone so far?

 

I'll have to check out Strange Brew. 

 

 

[Staticmoves]

2 hours ago, Fishy Guy said:

Love that hawkfish! How is he getting along with everyone so far?

 

I'll have to check out Strange Brew. 

 

 

I have a peppermint shrimp and a skunk cleaner shrimp, they are still alive.

has not bugged the smaller fish this far.

and bubbles (clown fish) keeps the hawk fish is line.

If I didn’t have the larger clown, I would not have put this guy in the tank yet.

[Staticmoves]

2 hours ago, Fishy Guy said:

Love that hawkfish! How is he getting along with everyone so far?

 

I'll have to check out Strange Brew. 

 

 

I have a peppermint shrimp and a skunk cleaner shrimp, they are still alive.

has not bugged the smaller fish this far.

and bubbles (clown fish) keeps the hawk fish is line.

 

[Staticmoves]

Added a bag of copepods last evening. The last bag my LFS had. Expiry was dec 12……so they gave me the bag free.

ill report later if I see any walking dust particles or not…….🧐

[Staticmoves]

Happy new years, from our reef to yours.

[boscoT]

happy new year!!!

[Staticmoves]

I added 4 marine pure balls from the sump of my other tank, to seed my new marine pure balls in this tank.

copepods are now running a muck all over, and the fire fish like the hunt.

the Pom Pom crab is now out in full force during feedings, and doesn’t take crap from any one when it comes to getting its fair share.

i believe the new dry rock has sucked up alk, mag and cal, as it almost dropped the alk from 12 dkh fresh made water to 7.84 dkh. Interesting, I thought this may be due to no lights on. So I am going to try to slowly correct with water changes over the next 7 weeks. Hoping to stabilize tank around 9-10 dkh in the long run.

i have alk, cal and mag on hand for minor adjustments after water change method. Don’t want to make any major changes by dosing until lights go on in about 5-7 weeks, to see how it goes.

 

[Fishy Guy]

I'd heard of dry rock sucking up phosphates but didn't realize they could do the same to alk. Curious what salt you're using that comes at 12 dKH?