Fluval Spec III (2.6g) Reef - Ideas/Advice

[A.m.P]

1 hour ago, ReachTheSky said:

Been noticing a pod and flatworm population increase. Any chance they might be causing issues?

Most likely not, there are amphipods which eat zoas and may even munch on other coals but they're very, very large and pretty uncommon.
99% of flatworms are harmless, if you dip the acan and a bunch of larger flatworms fall off you may have something going on, but those usually only go after euphyllia-like corals and I don't see any evidence of predation.

[ReachTheSky]

Tested PO4 again just now. My Hannah Phosphorous ULR tester returned 1ppb. Retested in a better lit area and it returned 0ppb. I do bi-weekly water changes and run the small Chemipure Elite but there is now ay this can be accurate. I fed a heap of mysis, reef chili and amino acids yesterday too.

[A.m.P]

Aminos don't contribute to phosphate, Chemipure elite has GFO, which is quite aggressive, and two waterchanges a week means that you're exporting 50% of your levels twice a week. It also takes quite a while for foods to go through gradual, meaningful decomposition into nutrients, which is why skimmers are so effective.
It sounds reasonable to me, but I could be wrong.

[ReachTheSky]

Went down to the LFS for some RO water and took the test kit with me. He ran it with his own saltwater and confirmed it works. So yeah... apparently my phosphates are at 0.00ppm.

 

I'm going to remove the Chemipure right now and start feeding daily to get nutrients up to a better level.

[A.m.P]

Fwiw you could grab the small bottle of Seachem Flourish Phosphate and dose like two drops in a volume that small lol, the bottle would last a lifetime (Same for nitrates). 

I'm in the same boat, just bottomed my own nutrients out with an unnecessary waterchange, now I have a bunch of brown montis and some pissed off LPS.
It sneaks up on ya.

[ReachTheSky]

Lol, thanks. I think I'll skip dosing it for now and try to bring them up naturally. I need to cut down my WC schedule too since now I'm dosing All-For-Reef.

 

Is coral warfare something I should watch? Running such a small tank with so many corals and no media... I'm a bit weary. Maybe I can run just carbon from BRS. I do have a promo code.

[A.m.P]

Unless you have a ton of aggressive softies there's probably no need to worry. Some carbon in the back chamber will keep the tank from smelling like fishfood though, which I really appreciate. It technically helps get rid of dead end carbon chains and such.

[ReachTheSky]

I might just do that then. I work from home and it's sitting on my work desk. Smelly tank is a no-no!

 

I really appreciate the help. Will report back in a few days - really hoping these guys survive. I also got a $150 gift card to Vivid Aquariums as a b-day present. Looking forward to spending it once the tank gets better.

[mcarroll]

On 9/30/2021 at 2:47 PM, ReachTheSky said:

• Slowly turned up the light to 100% over the course of a week or two.
• Also running the tank without the plastic top cover just to see what difference it makes.
• Average temps dropped from ~79F to 77F, evaporation increased quite a bit and I have to assume there's way more light penetration.

 

Dosing 0.5ml of ESV Alkalinity per day to maintain 8.2dkh. Calcium is dosed every other day to maintain 440-450ppm. Magnesium is around 1250-1280ppm but I'm going to bring it up to around 1400ppm.

 

I'm considering adding another RFG in there for a better, more diverse flow pattern. Should be easy with a Loc-Line Y splitter.

Whose instructions were you following for the ESV dosing at this point?  It's unusual to dose them at different rates/differrent days.\

 

FYI balanced Ca for alk of 8.2 would be 420 ppm (actually 419).  http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

 

Was the 0.5mL based on testing?

 

On 10/12/2021 at 2:13 AM, ReachTheSky said:

Did a full battery of tests a few hours after a 1 gallon water change:

• Temps: Steady at 77-78 F
• Salinity: 1.026 (35ppt)
• Nitrate: 2ppm
• Phosphate: 0.07ppm
• Calcium: 410ppm
• Alkalinity: 7.7dKH
• Magnesium: 1280ppm

I'm dosing 1ml of both ESV B-Ionic supplements daily. Magnesion is dosed as needed.

What is your calculation for the ESV dose?

 

On 10/12/2021 at 2:13 AM, ReachTheSky said:

I feed a cocktail of frozen mysis, reef chili and a few drops of amino acid every 2-3 days. I top off the water twice daily too. Nano's are a lot of work man... a solid dosing unit is looking more and more attractive each day but they cost more than this entire setup. 🙄

You need an ATO for top-ups...yesterday might not be too soon.   Manual dosing of the ESV should be fine tho.

 

On 10/16/2021 at 9:26 PM, ReachTheSky said:

Plus I'm too damn lazy to hand-dose multiple times a day.

Once a day dosing is fine.  And you won't even have to keep testing so often once the tank settles down.

 

On 11/1/2021 at 3:34 PM, ReachTheSky said:

Montipora nearly bleached out. My hunch that it was related to swinging parameters was probably correct.

But which parameters?  You stopped reporting most of your values, such as phosphate.

 

But naturally when you suspect parameter swings to be a problem you do what...?

 

On 11/1/2021 at 3:34 PM, ReachTheSky said:

I stopped dosing everything altogether [....]

 

Parameters dropped like a ton of bricks of course (380ppm CA, 5.6dkh ALK)

Create another parameter swing!  😱

 

On 11/1/2021 at 3:34 PM, ReachTheSky said:

but bad levels that are consistent > good levels that swing.

What?!  I'm going to un-say that for you.

 

On 11/1/2021 at 3:34 PM, ReachTheSky said:

I installed a Kamoer X1 Pro and started dosing All-For-Reef a couple of days ago.

You know what they say about changing horses in the middle of a stream?

 

On 11/10/2021 at 1:00 PM, ReachTheSky said:

Acans look very unhappy. I'm not sure what's going on. The one on the right started shriveling up about a week ago and over the last two days, the one on the left followed suit.

That seems to line up with the change to AFR (and the parameter swing that accompanied the change).

 

On 11/10/2021 at 1:00 PM, ReachTheSky said:

I spot feed them every couple of days, confirmed that no one is really bugging them. Light and flow levels haven't really changed - they've always been happy in that position until recently. Ca/Alk/Mg stays pretty steady at 420/8.0/1280. Phosphates/Nitrates are at ~0.05ppm/<5ppm

 

Light levels were changed just about a month ago....still current on the corals' timeline!

 

Any coral that has been moved has a different flow now.

 

I would have been nice to have a few more data points between the tests at the beginning of the thread and here.

 

21 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

Tested PO4 again just now. My Hannah Phosphorous ULR tester returned 1ppb. Retested in a better lit area and it returned 0ppb. I do bi-weekly water changes and run the small Chemipure Elite but there is now ay this can be accurate. I fed a heap of mysis, reef chili and amino acids yesterday too.

The Hanna can be tricky to use because of the labware handling requirements, etc....results are easily confounded by things like fingerprints on the glass and particles in the water sample....I suspect that your tank may have been near 0 ppb on 11/10 as well...probably before that too.

 

Chemipiure Elite specifically removes PO4....a crucial component to keep your photosynthetic corals happy.

 

Amino Acids generally seem to break down rather than being consumed as food.  In this way, they act more like "super carbon dosing" and tend to have a reducing effect on phosphates.  (And, like reef chili, tends to promote cyanobacteria in the long run.)

 

Focus on feeding just the mysis to your fish – and make sure you feed them adequately.  Let the fish feed your corals.

 

20 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

Went down to the LFS for some RO water and took the test kit with me. He ran it with his own saltwater and confirmed it works. So yeah... apparently my phosphates are at 0.00ppm.

 

I'm going to remove the Chemipure right now and start feeding daily to get nutrients up to a better level.

It's funny (not funny) how often someone on here utterly denies their own test results like this...always nutrients, and not other parameters...and always denial of zero and not some other point on the scale.

 

If you doubt your ability to use the test kit (a valid worry!) then the way to validate your testing ability is to test (e.g.) three times in a row on the same water sample.  If you get near-identical results, then you know you are testing correctly.

 

If you doubt the meter or the reagents, then the way is to test a "reference" sample and see if the results make sense.  If they do, then results on a tank sample should make sense too.  I like to use tap water for a "zero" reference.  (Some places might be above-zero.....look at your town's water report or call the water department and ask.  It's not always reported since phosphate is a vitamin and not a toxin.)

 

Yes you feed.  But (as you found out) you also clean the water too much and dose things like amino acids that have side effects you didn't predict.

 

Stay with the basics as much as possible until you and the reef have more time under your belts.  

 

I'd:

• Stop making changes to light, flow and coral placement
• Switch back to ESV
• Use the doser for your ATO function (don't sleep on stability in salinity!)
• Keep out ALL extra filtration (eg ChemiPure, et al).  Keep a protein skimmer if you're using one....that's it.
• Stick to the basics on care and feeding (eg just frozen mysis or things the fish can eat)

15 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

I might just do that then. I work from home and it's sitting on my work desk. Smelly tank is a no-no!

You're over-feeding (or something) if your tank smells like anything other than fresh seawater...which barely has a smell, at least to my nose, but is slightly sweet.  Activated carbon shouldn't be required to eliminate smells.

 

 

[ReachTheSky]

That was... quite a lot to take in. Let me start at the beginning and clear things up for you.

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

Whose instructions were you following for the ESV dosing at this point?  It's unusual to dose them at different rates/differrent days.\

 

FYI balanced Ca for alk of 8.2 would be 420 ppm (actually 419).  http://reef.diesyst.com/chemcalc/chemcalc.html

 

Was the 0.5mL based on testing?

 

What is your calculation for the ESV dose?

My ESV dosages were based on the BRS calculator. My water volume, current levels and desired levels were plugged in and I was given a specific amount to dose in ml. It had the intended effect, as test results showed.

 

About the swinging parameters, monitopora issues and me stopping ESV, you asked:

4 hours ago, mcarroll said:

But which parameters?  You stopped reporting most of your values, such as phosphate.

 

But naturally when you suspect parameter swings to be a problem you do what...?

 

Create another parameter swing!  😱

 

What?!  I'm going to un-say that for you.

 

You know what they say about changing horses in the middle of a stream?

- The alkalinity was swinging wildly. Up to 1.2dkh per day being consumed, then replenished all at once. I don't monitor pH but I can't imagine ESV was doing any favors there. I started dosing ESV and noticed the montipora began bleaching, so I stopped. Parameters quickly fell but they stabilized at a lower level. After that and the coral almost immediately stopped receding and began recovering. A lot of the of the tissue was stark white but has since regained coloration.

 

- No need to un-say anything on my behalf. I meant what I said. Ca/Alk levels that are low but remain steady will be a lot less harmful to livestock than Ca/Alk levels that are at a good level but swing around wildly. I've read about this, talked to people about this and saw it with my own two eyes.

 

- If something isn't working for your tank, you stop using it and find an alternative that does. Lots of people switch products in their reefs and see better results. The hobby is always evolving and better stuff is coming out. ESV simply wasn't working for me so instead of stubbornly continuing with it, I looked for something much less aggressive.

 

About the Acans receding:

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

That seems to line up with the change to AFR (and the parameter swing that accompanied the change).

 

Light levels were changed just about a month ago....still current on the corals' timeline!

 

Any coral that has been moved has a different flow now.

 

I would have been nice to have a few more data points between the tests at the beginning of the thread and here.

Light levels have been steady for almost 2 months now. Flow has not changed at all. AFR dosing started 14 days ago. The parameter drop and subsequent stabilization didn't have any visible effect on them. They were happy before AFR and a week after.

 

AFR could be causing problems, but I think the faaar more obvious answer is that PO4 levels completely bottomed out after a WC and media refresh.

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

The Hanna can be tricky to use because of the labware handling requirements, etc....results are easily confounded by things like fingerprints on the glass and particles in the water sample....I suspect that your tank may have been near 0 ppb on 11/10 as well...probably before that too.

 

Chemipiure Elite specifically removes PO4....a crucial component to keep your photosynthetic corals happy.

 

Amino Acids generally seem to break down rather than being consumed as food.  In this way, they act more like "super carbon dosing" and tend to have a reducing effect on phosphates.  (And, like reef chili, tends to promote cyanobacteria in the long run.)

 

Focus on feeding just the mysis to your fish – and make sure you feed them adequately.  Let the fish feed your corals.

I wipe the cuvettes clean with a towel and give it a few taps and rolls to get the air bubbles out.

 

I removed the Chemipure Elite and started a daily feeding regime to get nutrients back up. Seems I underestimated how strong the filtration capacity and/or overestimated the bioload here. This is my first time using Marinepure Gems and it's a fishless tank as well so spot-feeding is what I must do.

 

That's an interesting thing you mentioned about Amino Acid dosing. I'll read more into that. I have not seen any cyanobacteria in this tank so that's a plus.

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

It's funny (not funny) how often someone on here utterly denies their own test results like this...always nutrients, and not other parameters...and always denial of zero and not some other point on the scale.

 

If you doubt your ability to use the test kit (a valid worry!) then the way to validate your testing ability is to test (e.g.) three times in a row on the same water sample.  If you get near-identical results, then you know you are testing correctly.

 

If you doubt the meter or the reagents, then the way is to test a "reference" sample and see if the results make sense.  If they do, then results on a tank sample should make sense too.  I like to use tap water for a "zero" reference.  (Some places might be above-zero.....look at your town's water report or call the water department and ask.  It's not always reported since phosphate is a vitamin and not a toxin.)

Thanks... I know how to use Hanna checkers. It was just startling to see 0ppb on the meter all of a sudden. When I see a startling result like that, I have to be sure it's not a testing error before I make rash changes to my reef. I've had this particular tester for years and their sensors and electrodes don't last forever.

 

5 hours ago, mcarroll said:

• Stop making changes to light, flow and coral placement
• Switch back to ESV
• Use the doser for your ATO function (don't sleep on stability in salinity!)
• Keep out ALL extra filtration (eg ChemiPure, et al).  Keep a protein skimmer if you're using one....that's it.
• Stick to the basics on care and feeding (eg just frozen mysis or things the fish can eat)

Light, flow and placement have not changed in almost 2 months.

I will not switch back to ESV. As I said, it doesn't work for me. Nearly killed my coral.

Salinity is stable. I top off daily and test it regularly with a calibrated meter. I may consider an ATO but for the moment, this system works.

Chemipure has already been removed. I've never used a skimmer on this tank.

I don't own fish.

[mcarroll]

2 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

I started dosing ESV and noticed the montipora began bleaching, so I stopped.

Was there any other form of dosing prior to ESV or were you just doing water changes to keep up with alk demand before starting ESV?

 

FYI... Dosing at night when pH is low, dosing through a dripper to allow time for aeration and flow to work, and diluting each dose in a quantity of RODI water before adding it to the tank (or both) are the three most common strategies for ameliorating the known side effects of dosing.

 

But 1.1 mL of ESV per day (into 2 gallons....minus .6 gallons for rock, etc) to raise dKH by 1.2 units isn't all that much....unless you have trouble finding a safe place to dose in such a small tank!  You can't be bombing the corals directly with concentrated reagents of course! 😉  (Most folks like a sump for this role since it gives some time and physical space between the dose and your livestock....not sure what options you have in your tank.)

 

Separately, if you really think your pH is on the high side....or you just want to play it pH-safe while dosing....then that's what ESV's Bicarbonate buffer system

would have been for...generates no spike in pH/reduction in CO2.  This is what I'd personally recommend for most stony reefs.  (Similar to DIY Recipe #2's alk component.)

 

2 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

No need to un-say anything on my behalf. I meant what I said. Ca/Alk levels that are low but remain steady will be a lot less harmful to livestock than Ca/Alk levels that are at a good level but swing around wildly.

If there didn't seem to be any humor in the absurdity of my un-saying, then by all means re-say it.  🙂 

 

But predictably causing alk to spike low to <6 dKH is not better for your coals than dosing 1.2 dKH of Two Part every day.  

 

Every day while you were dosing ESV the tank's dKH would glide gradually down to a perfectly-safe 7.0 which you were bringing up every day to a perfectly-safe 8.2.  Of course anything can be done "wrong" (so there is always room for trouble) but there's no built in problem there.

 

As mentioned there were other strategies you could have employed to lower each dose's impact, even as half-measures while you eased the tank into a new dosing system with AFR.  

 

It's certainly fine to choose whatever dosing regime fits your style.  I'm just trying to help you with some of the details of the methods (and side effects) you've mentioned to make sure the experience is good (or better) for you and your animals.  Some of these things aren't as straightforward to diagnose as they initially appear. 👍

 

2 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

The hobby is always evolving and better stuff is coming out.

Mostly true. 😉  Since the fish, the coral and their care requirements haven't changed in eons, sometimes the "better stuff" turns out to be crap tho...so reefers tend to be careful and a bit conservative where it counts the most.

 

But in all seriousness, there's nothing particularly better (per se) about "all in one" dosing vs Two-part, et al.  "One-part" is just different is all.

 

And "different" is definitely not the same as "better".   Dosing regimes aren't quite directly interchangeable as a result of their differences.

 

In your case, one key difference is reflected in Tropic Marin's usage instructions, which state (for one thing) to start AFR at a specific small dosage (about .5 mL for your tank) and to work up (ultimately) to a specified maximum dosage of 25ml per 26 gallons.  This difference doesn't make Two-part "better", but it does mean that a more comprehensive consideration of those limits expressed in AFR's instructions would have prevented the downward spike in alk that your system experienced.

 

For comparison, Two-part doesn't have a specific low-end or high-end concentration to limit your dosing in either direction.  And with Two-part there's no time delay where the product seems not to work, but then "slowly kicks in".  

 

Also, Two-part additions are best-metered with alkalinity tests – because alk changes faster than ca or mg (since there's less of it in the water vs ca or mg) so you have a better view on mineral changes.  

 

HOWEVER....AFR recommends using a calcium test since alk test don't detect the alk part of AFR very well/immediately.  As seen in the quote below from the same link as earlier:

Quote

We recommend using Calcium as the dosage regulator, as conventional test kits are more sensitive (or accurate) in measuring changes in the calcium concentration than changes of the alkalinity from Tropic Marin® All-For-Reef.

 

The problem (with AFR) and reason that's a limitation is that when you start a tank out with stony corals, calcium changes so slowly that the changes usually can't be detected by a calcium test kit....calcium consumption only becomes apparent in tests way after consumption becomes visible on an alk test.

 

For what it's worth:  

 

Salifert and others have had verious "all in one" products on the market for what seems like most of reefing's history.  Kalkwasser has to be the original "all in one".  🙂  

 

I remember folks like Craig Bingman talking about DIY 1-part recipes similar to AFR (with a component that has to decompose into alk) in the 90's or maybe early 2000's. Tropic Marin's own Bio-Calcium (similar to AFR, but simpler in action and minus trace elements I think) has been on the market forever.  

 

I Personally have used Brightwell's liquid and powder all in one, as well as Bio-Calcium back in the early 2000's when I was starting my system, and later kalkwasser as well.  Of course when consumption got really high all of them were replaced with two-part, which at various times was ESV, Brightwell and DIY...sometimes also dosing kalkwasser in tandem (via Tunze ATO reactor).

 

I'm definitely in favor of using whatever works for you!

 

2 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

ESV simply wasn't working for me so instead of stubbornly continuing with it, I looked for something much less aggressive.

Your ESV could have been dosed far less aggressively so I'm not sure about this point of comparison.  

 

I wouldn't have seen you looking for ways to make ESV work as being stubborn either – ESV has worked in similar circumstances for plenty of other folks, so there's no reason to think your experience would need to be any different from theirs.  

 

Even if you assume that all known impacts from switching to AFR aren't bad and also assume that your reef can handle them, you still kinda switched dosing gears from 2 part to 1 part without using the clutch.

 

Allowing alk to crash that low (grinding those gears in the transmission) can be a whammy to stony corals...and it may take a week or more for you to see possible side-effects...similarly to how other stresses (eg lighting changes) on corals often take 1-4 weeks or so to present "visual" symptoms.

 

Here's to hoping that nothing further bad comes of it!  🤞

 

3 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

AFR could be causing problems, but I think the faaar more obvious answer is that PO4 levels completely bottomed out after a WC and media refresh.

Undoubtedly the po4 bottoming out is another cause for worry.  

 

Unfortunately when it comes to stress it's not "either/or"....it's "all of the above".

 

But the alk "spiking" down to <6dKH is the other problem I was talking about – from the sudden, harsh switchover.  

 

The AFR usage per se is not a problem.

 

Although there's room for AFR to cause issues too since it depends on a bloom of bacteria, which will cause a spike in po4 and no3 demand, to make it's alk component work.   This is one reason I would have cautioned the immediate/sudden switch you did.

 

Your tank was/had been starved for alk AND po4 at the time of the switch.  Stony corals hate both of these things.

 

Alk is related to dissolved CO2.  

 

CO2 and PO4 are both integral (in different ways) to coral photosynthesis.

 

...meaning that a disturbance in the supply of either CO2 or PO4 can be overwhelmingly bad for a coral's internal machinery, especially depending on the coral's prior state of stress and overall conditions.

 

I certainly hope your system continues to stabilize and that your corals continue to recover.  👍

 

3 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

Light levels have been steady for almost 2 months now.

I'm not making up what you said...cmon now. 😉  You said (as I quoted already) on 9/30 that the lights had just been turned up.  That's about 1 month and 10 days before my post...not 2 months.  🙂 And more important than what I think, in the coral's book that change from 1.3 months ago is still relevant – especially due to the stress the corals were under for a good portion of the time since then.

 

As for flow, if you're saying you haven't moved any of your flow sources and you haven't moved any of your corals, then I agree that's probably not an issue.  (Is overall flow pretty strong?  Or on the weak/soft side?)

 

3 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

I will not switch back to ESV. As I said, it doesn't work for me. Nearly killed my coral.

If the ESV had anything at all to do with your negative results (implying that it wasn't solely the PO4 issue) then it would only have been from how you were dosing it.  

 

Dosing anything like 2-part (ie something that has an impact on pH, especially in the immediate vicinity where the dose is added) into such a tiny volume of water presents obvious and well-known challenges!!    

 

But with ESV being one of the oldest and most successful products on the reef market, over the decades of use folks have pretty much found ALL of the workarounds to use ESV without issues.  (eg drip dosers, dillution, et al)

 

It's worth pointing out that the rolled-in advice on the Reef Chemistry Calculator says that pretty much any amount of alk should be dripped in/"slowly added".....+0.2 dKH was the smallest amount I checked on the RCC and even that small adjustment warrants (according to the RCC authors) the same advice to add it slowly.  

 

3 hours ago, ReachTheSky said:

Salinity is stable. I top off daily

I will of course take you at your word (you know your evaporation levels, et al) while also pointing out that an ATO will add water many times per day resulting in an even more stable system.  Corals are well-known to appreciate this level of stability.   

 

I also manually topped off my tank for quite a while after I started it, before I added an ATO...but I still say that an ATO is almost as fundamental as light and flow.  IMO every reefer should have an ATO as soon as they are able to.

 

How much volume does such a tiny tank evaporate every day, BTW?

 

 

[W1ll]

1 hour ago, mcarroll said:

Was there any other form of dosing prior to ESV or were you just doing water changes to keep up with alk demand before starting ESV?

 

FYI... Dosing at night when pH is low, dosing through a dripper to allow time for aeration and flow to work, and diluting each dose in a quantity of RODI water before adding it to the tank (or both) are the three most common strategies for ameliorating the known side effects of dosing.

 

But 1.1 mL of ESV per day (into 2 gallons....minus .6 gallons for rock, etc) to raise dKH by 1.2 units isn't all that much....unless you have trouble finding a safe place to dose in such a small tank!  You can't be bombing the corals directly with concentrated reagents of course! 😉  (Most folks like a sump for this role since it gives some time and physical space between the dose and your livestock....not sure what options you have in your tank.)

 

Separately, if you really think your pH is on the high side....or you just want to play it pH-safe while dosing....then that's what ESV's Bicarbonate buffer system

would have been for...generates no spike in pH/reduction in CO2.  This is what I'd personally recommend for most stony reefs.  (Similar to DIY Recipe #2's alk component.)

 

If there didn't seem to be any humor in the absurdity of my un-saying, then by all means re-say it.  🙂 

 

But predictably causing alk to spike low to <6 dKH is not better for your coals than dosing 1.2 dKH of Two Part every day.  

 

Every day while you were dosing ESV the tank's dKH would glide gradually down to a perfectly-safe 7.0 which you were bringing up every day to a perfectly-safe 8.2.  Of course anything can be done "wrong" (so there is always room for trouble) but there's no built in problem there.

 

As mentioned there were other strategies you could have employed to lower each dose's impact, even as half-measures while you eased the tank into a new dosing system with AFR.  

 

It's certainly fine to choose whatever dosing regime fits your style.  I'm just trying to help you with some of the details of the methods (and side effects) you've mentioned to make sure the experience is good (or better) for you and your animals.  Some of these things aren't as straightforward to diagnose as they initially appear. 👍

 

Mostly true. 😉  Since the fish, the coral and their care requirements haven't changed in eons, sometimes the "better stuff" turns out to be crap tho...so reefers tend to be careful and a bit conservative where it counts the most.

 

But in all seriousness, there's nothing particularly better (per se) about "all in one" dosing vs Two-part, et al.  "One-part" is just different is all.

 

And "different" is definitely not the same as "better".   Dosing regimes aren't quite directly interchangeable as a result of their differences.

 

In your case, one key difference is reflected in Tropic Marin's usage instructions, which state (for one thing) to start AFR at a specific small dosage (about .5 mL for your tank) and to work up (ultimately) to a specified maximum dosage of 25ml per 26 gallons.  This difference doesn't make Two-part "better", but it does mean that a more comprehensive consideration of those limits expressed in AFR's instructions would have prevented the downward spike in alk that your system experienced.

 

For comparison, Two-part doesn't have a specific low-end or high-end concentration to limit your dosing in either direction.  And with Two-part there's no time delay where the product seems not to work, but then "slowly kicks in".  

 

Also, Two-part additions are best-metered with alkalinity tests – because alk changes faster than ca or mg (since there's less of it in the water vs ca or mg) so you have a better view on mineral changes.  

 

HOWEVER....AFR recommends using a calcium test since alk test don't detect the alk part of AFR very well/immediately.  As seen in the quote below from the same link as earlier:

 

The problem (with AFR) and reason that's a limitation is that when you start a tank out with stony corals, calcium changes so slowly that the changes usually can't be detected by a calcium test kit....calcium consumption only becomes apparent in tests way after consumption becomes visible on an alk test.

 

For what it's worth:  

 

Salifert and others have had verious "all in one" products on the market for what seems like most of reefing's history.  Kalkwasser has to be the original "all in one".  🙂  

 

I remember folks like Craig Bingman talking about DIY 1-part recipes similar to AFR (with a component that has to decompose into alk) in the 90's or maybe early 2000's. Tropic Marin's own Bio-Calcium (similar to AFR, but simpler in action and minus trace elements I think) has been on the market forever.  

 

I Personally have used Brightwell's liquid and powder all in one, as well as Bio-Calcium back in the early 2000's when I was starting my system, and later kalkwasser as well.  Of course when consumption got really high all of them were replaced with two-part, which at various times was ESV, Brightwell and DIY...sometimes also dosing kalkwasser in tandem (via Tunze ATO reactor).

 

I'm definitely in favor of using whatever works for you!

 

Your ESV could have been dosed far less aggressively so I'm not sure about this point of comparison.  

 

I wouldn't have seen you looking for ways to make ESV work as being stubborn either – ESV has worked in similar circumstances for plenty of other folks, so there's no reason to think your experience would need to be any different from theirs.  

 

Even if you assume that all known impacts from switching to AFR aren't bad and also assume that your reef can handle them, you still kinda switched dosing gears from 2 part to 1 part without using the clutch.

 

Allowing alk to crash that low (grinding those gears in the transmission) can be a whammy to stony corals...and it may take a week or more for you to see possible side-effects...similarly to how other stresses (eg lighting changes) on corals often take 1-4 weeks or so to present "visual" symptoms.

 

Here's to hoping that nothing further bad comes of it!  🤞

 

Undoubtedly the po4 bottoming out is another cause for worry.  

 

Unfortunately when it comes to stress it's not "either/or"....it's "all of the above".

 

But the alk "spiking" down to <6dKH is the other problem I was talking about – from the sudden, harsh switchover.  

 

The AFR usage per se is not a problem.

 

Although there's room for AFR to cause issues too since it depends on a bloom of bacteria, which will cause a spike in po4 and no3 demand, to make it's alk component work.   This is one reason I would have cautioned the immediate/sudden switch you did.

 

Your tank was/had been starved for alk AND po4 at the time of the switch.  Stony corals hate both of these things.

 

Alk is related to dissolved CO2.  

 

CO2 and PO4 are both integral (in different ways) to coral photosynthesis.

 

...meaning that a disturbance in the supply of either CO2 or PO4 can be overwhelmingly bad for a coral's internal machinery, especially depending on the coral's prior state of stress and overall conditions.

 

I certainly hope your system continues to stabilize and that your corals continue to recover.  👍

 

I'm not making up what you said...cmon now. 😉  You said (as I quoted already) on 9/30 that the lights had just been turned up.  That's about 1 month and 10 days before my post...not 2 months.  🙂 And more important than what I think, in the coral's book that change from 1.3 months ago is still relevant – especially due to the stress the corals were under for a good portion of the time since then.

 

As for flow, if you're saying you haven't moved any of your flow sources and you haven't moved any of your corals, then I agree that's probably not an issue.  (Is overall flow pretty strong?  Or on the weak/soft side?)

 

If the ESV had anything at all to do with your negative results (implying that it wasn't solely the PO4 issue) then it would only have been from how you were dosing it.  

 

Dosing anything like 2-part (ie something that has an impact on pH, especially in the immediate vicinity where the dose is added) into such a tiny volume of water presents obvious and well-known challenges!!    

 

But with ESV being one of the oldest and most successful products on the reef market, over the decades of use folks have pretty much found ALL of the workarounds to use ESV without issues.  (eg drip dosers, dillution, et al)

 

It's worth pointing out that the rolled-in advice on the Reef Chemistry Calculator says that pretty much any amount of alk should be dripped in/"slowly added".....+0.2 dKH was the smallest amount I checked on the RCC and even that small adjustment warrants (according to the RCC authors) the same advice to add it slowly.  

 

I will of course take you at your word (you know your evaporation levels, et al) while also pointing out that an ATO will add water many times per day resulting in an even more stable system.  Corals are well-known to appreciate this level of stability.   

 

I also manually topped off my tank for quite a while after I started it, before I added an ATO...but I still say that an ATO is almost as fundamental as light and flow.  IMO every reefer should have an ATO as soon as they are able to.

 

How much volume does such a tiny tank evaporate every day, BTW?

 

 

Super interesting reading through this, just started stocking up my own mini tank with some basic SPS and have starting looking into dosing. 

[ReachTheSky]

Nearly five days after removing Chemipure and feeding an uncomfortably large amount of food daily and Phosphate/Nitrate are still at a solid 0.00ppm.

 

Acans seem to be a tiny bit better though so that's a plus.

[ReachTheSky]

Eight days in, continuing to feed A LOT of food daily and Phosphate/Nitrate are still testing at 0.00ppm. 🥺  Do I have to introduce a fish in here?

 

Acans still look pissed but the other corals are absolutely ecstatic. Never seen them grow bigger or look more vibrant.

[A.m.P]

Dosing is the best way to get nutrient levels up, overfeeding just results in rotting organics, even with fish.

[mcarroll]

Yeah I agree – in a tank like this without fish it might be best to dose liquid PO4 of some variety.  If there's any urgency, then that's definitely the way to go.  (If everything is doing ok, then you can also wait a few weeks to see if the increased feeding has any effect....it can take that long to know for sure...unlike the immediacy of dosing.  Patience is a virtue in this case.)

 

Artificial feeding of corals is fairly unreliable compared to keeping their symbionts (and them) happy via dissolved nutrients....some foods are rejected, some foods are consumed and them rejected, sometimes flow isn't right for prey capture, et al.

 

But AFTER you have the correct starting levels established via liquid dosing....and if you're ONLY feeding corals, not fish...then I think phyto is probably the "food" that makes the most sense to dose regularly.  

 

Something like DT's Sustainable Aquatics's Premium Reef Blend.

 

[ReachTheSky]

Thanks. I've ordered the small bottles of NeoPhos and NeoNitro. They'll be here this weekend and that balancing act can begin.

 

The life partner, a few reefing friends and at least two LFS' are telling me to get a Goby. One of them got some Yasha Goby's in stock too. I wont lie, that would be a nice addition but I'm a bit worried about the ramifications. What do you guys think?

[A.m.P]

36 minutes ago, ReachTheSky said:

Thanks. I've ordered the small bottles of NeoPhos and NeoNitro. They'll be here this weekend and that balancing act can begin.

 

The life partner, a few reefing friends and at least two LFS' are telling me to get a Goby. One of them got some Yasha Goby's in stock too. I wont lie, that would be a nice addition but I'm a bit worried about the ramifications. What do you guys think?

The only fish really suited to a tank that volume would be evotia, trimma, or masked gobies, maybe a sharknose. KP gets Emblemaria pandionis in every once in a while, but they're also not the best idea.

[mcarroll]

If you started the tank without intentions for fish, then I think that's a good limitation to keep.  

 

Pico's are not great fish tanks – get a bigger tank when it's time for fish.

 

(Is it time for a bigger tank already?  It's possible!)

[ReachTheSky]

After our wedding next year, I'm going to start working on a bigger tank. 🙂

 

Nitrates and Phosphates were at 0.00ppm yesterday just prior to dosing. I put enough NeoPhos and NeoNitro in there to bring them up to 3ppm and 0.02ppm respectively. 24 hours later, phosphates are back down to 0.00ppm but nitrates appear to be around ~2ppm.

[mcarroll]

🦺 Safer to overshoot a bit on phosphate rather than return to zero...high initial uptake after dosing is somewhat predictable.*

 

📉 When you re-dose I would target a number that gives the system a wider margin of safety such as 0.05 or (better) 0.10 ppm.

 

👌~5 ppm is fine for nitrates.  In a mature system it can even be fine to register 0 ppm.  In a new system it's better to have a minimum as you do now tho. 

 

* It's likely that your nitrates would also have gone to zero if you'd dosed just a little more phosphate.   Keep an eye on your nitrates...and consider keeping a margin of safety of 5+ ppm for a while.  🤙

[ReachTheSky]

Dosed enough to bring nitrates up to 5ppm and phosphates up to 0.10ppm. I'll keep you posted. Expecting some dirty glass tomorrow!

[filefishfinatic]

you could get something slow growing and cryptic. honestly what id get is a butterfly goby they stay very small, acclimate readily to saltwater, and they are easy to keep. they will just hover around the rocks looking for pods. they are a scorpion but they only get 2" id go for that or some kind of neon goby pair or yasha goby 

[ReachTheSky]

That guy looks cool but it's a brackish fish.

 

I think I'll stick with the fishless system. For a while though, I considered housing a baby Sixline to subdue the flatworm population. They're multiplying and annoying to look at.

[ReachTheSky]

Phosphates are at 0.00ppm again!! 😬

 

Nitrates are somewhere between the 2-5ppm range. I tested Alkalinity to make sure the mini-carbon dosing aspect of AFR wasn't thrown out of wack but nope... it's solid at around 8.2 DKH.

 

EDIT: I should add that the glass is noticeably dirtier.