Low Maintenance First Tank - Questions

[specore]

33 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

 

I don't use strips, I know some of the strips don't test anything below 10ppm so likely users bought the wrong stuff, and strips just suck anyways. I woudn't use strips to test my Nitrate so why anything else?

 

 I used one from spectrapure. It definitely does NOT read 0 out of tap. (It is not a strip) I assume since its from them, its probably at least somewhat reliable for its range because they sell it to test the carbon blocks for their systems.

 

On a side note, prime must take care of it too because I use tap in my QT tanks treated with prime and everything seems to do well.

 

Sorry for late reply, worked a lot this week. Sounds like you have it covered anyways. It never hurts to be overly cautious.  

Thanks.  I have strips because that's what BRS sends with their units 🙂

 

They suck though lol

 

This it?

[lkoechle]

You should make a tank journal. I would like to follow your tank. Especially the stand build.  We tried magnets with ours but it didn't work. Went with picture hangers instead.  The panel was too heavy. So I would be interested to see if it works for you and how you implement it since we plan on building another stand at some point.  Make sure you post links where you bought you stuff so I know where to go 🤣 also would love to see the bamboo panels.

[Tamberav]

6 hours ago, specore said:

Thanks.  I have strips because that's what BRS sends with their units 🙂

 

They suck though lol

 

This it?

 

Ya reviews on the strips on BRS site do not look good!!

 

That is the one I use. 

 

Hanna sells a few different low range chlorine kits although they are more expensive like all hanna test kits but can buy reagent refills. They are more in the 0.01-0.02 range. 

 

If I had a large tank and produced a lot more water, it prob would have been worth it for me to put chloramine specific carbon on my RODI and buy a low range test kit to see when to replace. As it is though, I don't use a ton of water and replace every 6 months regardless of what the pressure gauge says so I am safe IMO. 

[fulltang]

19 hours ago, specore said:

People will poo poo Instant Ocean here, but it is a solid enough product.  .  Recently switched from ESV to Live Aquaria Professional Salt and have been pleased with the LA product as well.  It's inexpensive and mixes nicely. 

 

Oh really, why is that? Do people generally prefer Red Sea Max for a salt that stores well?

 

14 hours ago, lkoechle said:

You should make a tank journal. I would like to follow your tank. Especially the stand build.  We tried magnets with ours but it didn't work. Went with picture hangers instead.  The panel was too heavy. So I would be interested to see if it works for you and how you implement it since we plan on building another stand at some point.  Make sure you post links where you bought you stuff so I know where to go 🤣 also would love to see the bamboo panels.

 

I most definitely will! I'm waiting to start it up until I have the tank and my bamboo in hand. I plan on taking some step by step photos for the stand :).

 

What test kit do you all recommend I have on hand for when I order my TBS rock? I also figure I'll need some food for the little guys tagging along, is there a go-to for that as well?

 

Thank you all for the immense amount of help, seriously.

[lkoechle]

4 hours ago, fulltang said:

 

Oh really, why is that? Do people generally prefer Red Sea Max for a salt that stores well?

 

 

I most definitely will! I'm waiting to start it up until I have the tank and my bamboo in hand. I plan on taking some step by step photos for the stand :).

 

What test kit do you all recommend I have on hand for when I order my TBS rock? I also figure I'll need some food for the little guys tagging along, is there a go-to for that as well?

 

Thank you all for the immense amount of help, seriously.

Mysis shrimp and some feeder tongs in case it's something like clingfish.  Cling fish eat kind if like sting rays with their mouths almost under body so they need food waved in front of their face at first. You can see videos on my thread but they are hardy and quick to learn.  Other food I would have on hand is some kind of coral food like reef chili for gorgs and other coral.

 

I had problems with algae when using IO salt but have good experiences with Fritz and Red Sea blue bucket.  As well Reefmedic but I haven't found that since leaving Colorado.

[Clown79]

People poo poo on IO because it has low parameters, takes long to mix, no batch controls.

 

Red sea coral pro can't be stored for more than 5 days or it precipitates.

 

Each brand is different and we all have our favourites. 

I love red sea blue bucket. Great parameters, mixes fast, batch controlled.

[Jesterrace]

On 12/11/2018 at 10:32 PM, Clown79 said:

Liferock is just dry Rock.

 

It will not cause a cycle. There is nothing to die off on it as it is a man made rock.

 

 

Not true, it has a bacteria coating on it and there and both times I have used it I have had a cycle.  

 

 

[mcarroll]

On 12/13/2018 at 12:39 PM, fulltang said:

 

I decided on the Fluval Evo 13.5, which is rectangular. Great points about the spotlight coverage, they're so popular with this tank I didn't think coverage would be a huge issue. What you say makes total sense though, so if those CurrentUSA lights are somewhat comparable, I'll give them a serious look.

I would...strips aren't the only way to go, but a single spotlight is the least-best way to go, IMO.

 

(Extra controllability is not a feature that helps a light fixture to grow coral, BTW.  If anything, it's more often something that gets owners into trouble with their corals.)

 

On 12/13/2018 at 12:39 PM, fulltang said:

I definitely want my tank to pop reasonably well, as photography is a passion of mine. 

 

Healthy corals always seem photogenic to me.   What you see in photos online is a very often a whole other matter though.

 

Some ideas I've had about this are in some articles I wrote here.

On 12/13/2018 at 12:39 PM, fulltang said:

I'm committed to using the TBS rock and I had the same thought, it comes with so much life that if I'm successful in keeping it alive, I'll have my hands full without actually buying any other lifestock. This is extremely daunting, because I'm essentially going 0-100 as a complete noob. I feel like I need to do some water changes with nothing in the tank just to get a few "dry" runs to practice my maintenance routine.

You're just starting with live rock....same as many, many of us have done in the past.  It's a well-tread path, so it "shouldn't" seem extremely daunting.

 

What should seem a lot harder (because it is) to a lot more people is starting a reef with dead rock.  :)  Cheap comes with a price.

 

On 12/13/2018 at 12:39 PM, fulltang said:

A new concern that I have is that my local water is treated with Chloramines.

 

On 12/13/2018 at 3:17 PM, fulltang said:

In other news I contacted my local water district regarding the use of chloramines and this was their response:

 

"Thank you for your question regarding water treatment chemicals.

Soquel Creek Water District does NOT use chloramine for disinfection.  We use sodium hypochlorite, which is basically the chemical name for chlorine bleach.  It is stronger than household chlorine bleach however, and is highly purified so that it meets NSF 60 standards for chemicals used in drinking water treatment. http://www.nsf.org/services/by-industry/water-wastewater/water-treatment-chemicals/nsf-ansi-standard-60

Please let me know if you have any other questions,"

Yay!  No issues at all then.  Just get an RODI and run the standard compliment of filters.

 

On 12/13/2018 at 12:39 PM, fulltang said:

Random noob question, is it safe to use tap water to do a leaktest on my new tank, or should I play it safe and only ever let distilled touch the inside?

Not a problem. There's nothing in tap water that can hurt a tank.

 

 

Here's why we worry about chlorine at all as far as the animals are concerned....

 

Spoiler

Chlorine-Induced Mortality in Fish

Donald R. Grothe & John W. Eaton

Transactions of the American Fisheries Society, Volume 104, 1975 - Issue 4

 

...otherwise, the only real concern is for your RO-membrane, which will suffer a short life and decreased performance if it's getting attacked by chlorine.

[mcarroll]

On 12/12/2018 at 12:32 AM, Clown79 said:

Liferock is just dry Rock.

 

It will not cause a cycle. There is nothing to die off on it as it is a man made rock.

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, Jesterrace said:

Not true, it has a bacteria coating on it and there and both times I have used it I have had a cycle.  

 

Curing vs cycle.  I'm almost positive Clown meant curing.

 

There's no die-off from "clean" rock so there's no reason to cure it. 

 

There will always be a cycle, no matter the media, even if we can't measure it with a test kit.

[Jesterrace]

Ah, okay.  Either way though it is more than just dry rock. 

[fulltang]

Little update:

 

I have most of my gear ordered, but waiting on a few key things before I can start the actual set up. I decided to go for it and order the Nanobox Tide, and I'm still waiting on the bamboo to finish on the stand. Once I get those pieces I'll start up a journal.

 

With that being said, if I plan on just getting my routine established with the TBS live rock and its hitch hikers, do I need to drop the cash on a full range of test kits? I have an ammonia badge, but I'm wondering what parameters I need to test (and with what kits) with the TBS rock?

 

 

[Tamberav]

15 minutes ago, fulltang said:

Little update:

 

I have most of my gear ordered, but waiting on a few key things before I can start the actual set up. I decided to go for it and order the Nanobox Tide, and I'm still waiting on the bamboo to finish on the stand. Once I get those pieces I'll start up a journal.

 

With that being said, if I plan on just getting my routine established with the TBS live rock and its hitch hikers, do I need to drop the cash on a full range of test kits? I have an ammonia badge, but I'm wondering what parameters I need to test (and with what kits) with the TBS rock?

 

 

For the cycle I just do Ammonia and Nitrate, I don't bother with Nitrite. A Nitrate test kit will be useful for the life of the tank anyways. 

 

Alk > Ca > Mg in that order are useful but if you are doing softies, I would hold off on these. When I had softy only tanks, I never tested, just did regular water changes and it worked well. 

[fulltang]

On 12/18/2018 at 8:46 AM, lkoechle said:

You should make a tank journal. I would like to follow your tank. Especially the stand build.  We tried magnets with ours but it didn't work. Went with picture hangers instead.  The panel was too heavy. So I would be interested to see if it works for you and how you implement it since we plan on building another stand at some point.  Make sure you post links where you bought you stuff so I know where to go 🤣 also would love to see the bamboo panels.

 

I started that tank journal!

 

[Clown79]

On 12/19/2018 at 12:29 PM, mcarroll said:

 

 

Curing vs cycle.  I'm almost positive Clown meant curing.

 

There's no die-off from "clean" rock so there's no reason to cure it. 

 

There will always be a cycle, no matter the media, even if we can't measure it with a test kit.

I as well as others have used dry rock and have had spikes of ammonia.

 

I always recommend when adding dry rock to an existing tank that the rock be tested for a week before adding it because if there is organic matter, it may cause a spike.

 

 

If someone is using caribsea liferock only an ammonia source will need to be added to cycle the tank because liferock is the one dry dock that I have used that doesn't cause any spikes.

 

I highly doubt the amount of bacteria injected into it will offer much biofilter.

[mcarroll]

14 hours ago, Clown79 said:

as well as others have used dry rock and have had spikes of ammonia.

I specified clean rock in my comment because there are so many different kinds of dead rock that are created and handled in so many different ways.  

 

Sometimes even actual live rock has no die off.

 

It would be very ideal to know which you were buying in advance of the purchase: clean or dirty.   The seller ought to know.

[mcarroll]

By the way the OP was saying he's going to use "TBS" rock which I presume is Tampa Bay salt water.

 

If so, their live rock is actually shipped in water so there should be almost no (or absolutely no) die off.

 

If I were buying and I had any doubt I would definitely speak to them about it first.

[fulltang]

Yes I will be using tampa Bay saltwater live rock and sand.

[Tamberav]

TBS is awesome! My friend used it and while there didn't seem to be die off in the shipping, there was die off over the next weeks in the tank of sponges and such. Not enough to cause an ammonia spike or anything though.  

[fulltang]

3 hours ago, Tamberav said:

TBS is awesome! My friend used it and while there didn't seem to be die off in the shipping, there was die off over the next weeks in the tank of sponges and such. Not enough to cause an ammonia spike or anything though.  

 

Would it be wise to remove the sponges? I live on the west coast, I was thinking that might increase the chance of a die off, rather be safe than sorry. I also need to figure out the best way to get the bad crabs out before it goes the rock goes into the tank without much delay. Maybe I should have a fresh tote of saltwater to transfer it in while I pick them out?

[Clown79]

9 hours ago, mcarroll said:

I specified clean rock in my comment because there are so many different kinds of dead rock that are created and handled in so many different ways.  

 

Sometimes even actual live rock has no die off.

 

It would be very ideal to know which you were buying in advance of the purchase: clean or dirty.   The seller ought to know.

Caribsea reef dry rock caused a spike

 

Caribsea liferock didn't

[Tamberav]

11 hours ago, fulltang said:

 

Would it be wise to remove the sponges? I live on the west coast, I was thinking that might increase the chance of a die off, rather be safe than sorry. I also need to figure out the best way to get the bad crabs out before it goes the rock goes into the tank without much delay. Maybe I should have a fresh tote of saltwater to transfer it in while I pick them out?

 

He put them in a tote to catch the bad stuff. I would leave the sponges, they are very beneficial so try to keep anything good you can. If they die, oh well... the biofilter should be able to handle it and if not you can just do water changes and add prime to keep things alive. 

 

Some bad hitchhikers will likely get through but try not to be too worried about it. I did gulf live rock and it came with crabs and mantis shrimp, bad algaes, pest nems, ect but its all easily fixable in a nano. 

[mcarroll]

7 hours ago, Tamberav said:

 

He put them in a tote to catch the bad stuff. I would leave the sponges, they are very beneficial so try to keep anything good you can. If they die, oh well... the biofilter should be able to handle it and if not you can just do water changes and add prime to keep things alive. 

 

Some bad hitchhikers will likely get through but try not to be too worried about it. I did gulf live rock and it came with crabs and mantis shrimp, bad algaes, pest nems, ect but its all easily fixable in a nano. 

Well said!

 

Even in a big tank it's easily fixable.   

 

Which leads me to....I have no idea how the apparent love affair with dead rock got started.

 

My only guess is that folks starting tanks now are too young to remember that the hobby started with everyone using dead gravel and dead rock and that it worked like cr**.

 

Interestingly, in one book I have from the 1950's even noticed what a difference live rock made in a tank.  (I was regarded as almost-magical in it's ability to make a tank habitable to fish when nothing else would work.)

 

The hobby switched from using dead rock to live for many GREAT reasons.

 

Now, thanks to the switch to live rock...

...there are folks that LIKE mantis shrimps -- sell yours if you don't want it!

...we know exactly how to deal with aiptasia

...etc.

 

Folks have trouble with pest algae whether they start with dead rock or not, so that hardly goes against live rock.

 

The ultimate "pest algae" -- one that can actually kill everything in your tank -- dino's -- were practically unheard of when starting with live rock.

 

Now, thanks to the dead-switch away from live rock...

...dino's seem to almost be a staple of dead-rock starts.  I've personally helped with an ungodly number of dino cases over the last few years....and everyone from big name authors in the hobby to absolute neophytes get them.  Not good at all.

[Tamberav]

Some people use dry or "life rock" because they want  eco-friendly rock.

 

Dry rock also comes in better shapes and in general more porous than a lot of live rock.

 

It's much cheaper and beginners can go through sticker shock. 

 

It is pest free but I don't think this as a benefit at all but my friend is terrified of pests, he was struggling to keep SPS in what is basically a sterile tank and I finally convinced him to add TBS rock to his sump. He is the one who put it in a tub first. We'll see how it turns out as that was fairly recently.

 

You can keep softies and LPS with dry rock fairly easily. SPS is much more finicky and seems to do better with mature rock with sponges and life on it.

 

I loved the critters on gulf live rock, I absolutely hated the shapes and how dense it was. I eventually threw it away once my dry rock was seeded enough (like 2 years later). 

 

Most LFS I have seen live rock sucks... 10+ years ago I bought beautiful fully encursted coralline rock with abalones and hitchikers I could not identify. Now I see brownish diatom looking rock without light in vats many times.

 

I have not tried KPA or TBS yet but those would be my next go if I need some live rock and can't find it locally. They look good from what I have seen online.

 

I love my reef-cleaners rock but I did have to seed it heavily with gulf live rock and basically catching/buying/asking the LFS to give me their hitchikers whenever I could. 

 

Personally I will always now start a tank using a mix of dry + live rock. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[mcarroll]

6 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

Some people use dry or "life rock" because they want  eco-friendly rock.

 

Dry rock also comes in better shapes and in general more porous than a lot of live rock.

 

It's much cheaper and beginners can go through sticker shock. 

 

It is pest free but I don't think this as a benefit at al

Good post!   And I get all that, logically speaking....

 

But if I were in the beginner's shoes I'm not sure any of that would add up. 

• It's not a cheap hobby no matter how you slice it.
• Skimping on live rock is NOT the right place to save money.  (Instead, buy used equipment, or even used rock.  Much more sensible.)
• If more fish or corals die in dead rock tanks, that would more than offset any imaginary "eco-friendlyness" from using dead rock.*  
• Folks with dead rock DO end up with pests at least as often as live rock....maybe more.  Just different ones, and later instead of sooner.  Is that "better"?
• As for shapes, I can't comment specifically except to note that the rock becomes essentially invisible once corals grow over it....and the rocks are there for the corals and fish, not me.
• Also, you can MAKE cooler shapes exactly like you want them with DIY "live rock" compared to what you can buy already-dead.  This would have a chance of being more eco-friendly, if only a little.

* Eco-friendliness a big assumption in the first place....live rock supply was primarily a by-product of other human activities, so could be considered a "sunk cost" or not even associated with the hobby.  What we call live rock is commonly used as a raw building material for things like roads and airport runways where it's from.  Not sure if this practice has changed, but seems doubtful....gotta have building materials and there's not much else around there.

 

(hope that wasn't a big repeat...lol)

[fulltang]

Interesting debate! I was thinking that buying a very small amount of tbs live rock (like 5lbs) for seeding would be an option, but I figured just going all live rock would be ideal.

 

Also, I've been undecided on which soft coral I'd like to start with, but then I found Yuma and Florida ricordea..