Building a refugium

[paneubert]

This guy talks/shows it around 3:20.  Actually a really good summary of essentially exactly what you are worried about.  Rewind and watch the entire thing.  But from 3:20 forward is the good stuff.

 

 

[Porkpie5000]

1 hour ago, paneubert said:

I personally have a "LIfeReef"

I had a LifeReef on a 75 years ago and it was absolutely dependable.

[paneubert]

5 minutes ago, Porkpie5000 said:

I had a LifeReef on a 75 years ago and it was absolutely dependable.

I read this as "75 years ago" and was going to say that there is no way you are that old.  Haha.  I bought mine used.  Still works great.

[Porkpie5000]

1 minute ago, paneubert said:

I read this as "75 years ago" and was going to say that there is no way you are that old.

Well now that's how my brain reads it to. Thanks 🙂

[AlmightyJoshaeus]

Now that I know how to set up the plumbing, let me grill you about how to set up the refugium itself. I was thinking of a 10 gallon 'fuge with 7-10 lbs live rock (no live sand) and lots of macroalgae. The water level would be several inches below the top of the tank, and there would be heaps of macroalgae in the tank, lit by a pair of 5000k, 100 watt equivalent, 1600 lumen daylight bulbs. Would this work?

[Porkpie5000]

You want something like this

 

https://oceanboxdesigns.com/product/deluxe-sump-kit-for-10-gallon-aquarium-ruby-red/

 

You can find others on ebay. I can't comment on the quality of any of them as I haven't used them.

[paneubert]

It sounds fine.  I would highly suggest you make a small "chamber" for the return pump so that if the overflow/siphon does break, your return pump only has access to a small volume of water.  Like this, but make the pump chamber even smaller.  The smaller it is, the less water you need to worry about being pumped into your display tank.

 

 

If you are worried about bubbles being created by that waterfall and being pumped into your display, make a baffle system.  This is a photo of my sump. 

 

[paneubert]

2 minutes ago, Porkpie5000 said:

You want something like this

 

https://oceanboxdesigns.com/product/deluxe-sump-kit-for-10-gallon-aquarium-ruby-red/

 

You can find others on ebay. I can't comment on the quality of any of them as I haven't used them. 

My sump "kit" is from Ebay.  Very nice quality.  No regrets. 

[AlmightyJoshaeus]

Can I use a solid tank divider to accomplish this? OR can I simply place the pump relatively high in the tank?

[paneubert]

5 minutes ago, AlmightyJoshaeus said:

Can I use a solid tank divider to accomplish this?

Sure.  The reason people use baffles or slotted walls or "over and under" flow patterns or whatever is almost 100% due to reducing bubbles from getting sucked up and squirted back into your main tank.  As long as you have a way to stop bubbles, you can make your wall however you want.  Sometimes it is as easy as putting a piece of foam on the pump intake leading back to the display tank.

[Subsea]

On my 120 tank on top, I use a 40G breeder for a sump/refugium.  No dividers.  Pump is located on opposite  end of tank as gravity drain.  I use 300 GPHr return.  There are no bubbles in return.  If both tanks are same size, then 1” is same volume in each tank.  So, if overflow is 2” from top of tank, never run 2” above pump level.  

 

In the case of 40/120 ratio, 3” in sump is 1” in display.  I maintain water level in sump at 1” above pump intake.  When water level drops due to evaporation, air bubbles in return. signal you that sump  level is low.

[specore]

32 minutes ago, AlmightyJoshaeus said:

Can I use a solid tank divider to accomplish this? OR can I simply place the pump relatively high in the tank?

Why would you put the pump up high in the tank?  The idea of the baffle is to limit evaporation to one small compartment and keep the refugium at a constant water level.  Raising the pump just means it will take less water evaporating before the pump starts to run dry. 

[Subsea]

3 hours ago, specore said:

Why would you put the pump up high in the tank?  The idea of the baffle is to limit evaporation to one small compartment and keep the refugium at a constant water level.  Raising the pump just means it will take less water evaporating before the pump starts to run dry. 

Explain to me why separate compartments limit evaporation.  Each compartment has a liquid surface which is where evaporation occurs.  Just because compartment has a differrent level does not  stop evaporation in other compartments.  With no compartments, 1” change is much more volume than the last compartment which is much less volume.  Unless you are constrained to a fixed level for protein skimmer operation, I see little value of baffles in a refugium.

 

[paneubert]

On 10/19/2018 at 3:59 PM, Subsea said:

Explain to me why separate compartments limit evaporation.  Each compartment has a liquid surface which is where evaporation occurs.  Just because compartment has a differrent level does not  stop evaporation in other compartments.  With no compartments, 1” change is much more volume than the last compartment which is much less volume.  Unless you are constrained to a fixed level for protein skimmer operation, I see little value of baffles in a refugium.

 

What they mean to say is that the evaporation for the entire system will only show in the return pump chamber.  The water level of the display and other chambers will always be "full", while the return pump chamber will drop with evaporation.  This is why most folks will put their Auto Top Off sensors in the return pump chamber.  Anywhere else will not trigger the need for more water to be added.  BUt I am sure you already knew that and just thought they were saying the actual evaporation was reduced by having multiple/separate chambers.  

[Tamberav]

You don't NEED baffles but I would use some eggcrate or something to keep macro from accidently clogging your return pump.

 

Here is what I am picturing your idea.. basically.. they used a life reef overflow and a 15g sump. I am guessing the tape is the top off line

 

 

[paneubert]

14 minutes ago, Tamberav said:

You don't NEED baffles

Agree, but really would scare me due to chance of the return pump sending a LOT of water to the display if the siphon breaks.  Guess that would bring us back to the "keep the return pump high in the sump" trick.

[Subsea]

1 hour ago, Tamberav said:

You don't NEED baffles but I would use some eggcrate or something to keep macro from accidently clogging your return pump.

 

Here is what I am picturing your idea.. basically.. they used a life reef overflow and a 15g sump. I am guessing the tape is the top off line

 

 

 

+10. This is an economical refugium that works.  If both tanks have the same footprint, then each tank inch is same volume.  Maintain level in sump 1” above pump suction thereby eliminate overflow on top.  Disadvantage to larger area for level controller is slightly more salinity fluctuation with ATO.  

[AlmightyJoshaeus]

OK, here's my plan to eliminate risk of flooding regardless of what this tank experiences; both tanks will have the water level an inch or two below the rim to give a buffer for flooding, and both the HOB overflow and the return pump will be placed near the water level. There will also be a check valve in the pump line to prohibit backflow should the power go out. Does this sound correct?

[Subsea]

That works.  I  think a syphon breaker is more dependable than a check valve, but it can fail also.  The most reliable design revolves around good engineering with levels..  

 

Once system is plumbed and running, a electric failure test need be done to simulate worst case scenario.  Unplug return pipe and observe results.

[AlmightyJoshaeus]

OK! Will do.

[AlmightyJoshaeus]

My mother gave me the OK for the refugium after seeing all the research I put into it 🙂 Anyhow, here's my next question; what should I put in the refugium? I was going to put the following in my either 10 or 5 gallon refugium;

 

- Live rock

- Caulerpa sp

- Gracilaria sp

- Maybe other macroalgae?

- Copepods

- Rotifers?

 

Any thoughts on this?

[paneubert]

Rotifers won't survive due to needing specific algae/plankton for food.  But the rest is good.  Pods should breed and be blown into your display occasionally by the return pump.  I think rock is fine, but I would not do sand because sumps/refugiums are often nitrate traps if there are places for "crap" to collect.  Rock isn't that bad, but sand will just become full of crap.  If you plan to look at this refugium like a display, and want sand, I would go with a very thin layer.

[AlmightyJoshaeus]

OK! I was going to be feeding the system live Isochrysis algae anyway, so rotifers may be fine.

[specore]

On 10/19/2018 at 6:59 PM, Subsea said:

Explain to me why separate compartments limit evaporation.  Each compartment has a liquid surface which is where evaporation occurs.  Just because compartment has a differrent level does not  stop evaporation in other compartments.  With no compartments, 1” change is much more volume than the last compartment which is much less volume.  Unless you are constrained to a fixed level for protein skimmer operation, I see little value of baffles in a refugium.

 

I guess I meant to say it limits the effects of evaporation to one small compartment and keeps water levels from varying in other areas where it may be detrimental for levels to vary. 

[Subsea]

On 10/21/2018 at 1:23 PM, paneubert said:

Rotifers won't survive due to needing specific algae/plankton for food.  But the rest is good.  Pods should breed and be blown into your display occasionally by the return pump.  I think rock is fine, but I would not do sand because sumps/refugiums are often nitrate traps if there are places for "crap" to collect.  Rock isn't that bad, but sand will just become full of crap.  If you plan to look at this refugium like a display, and want sand, I would go with a very thin layer.

Detritus is the beginning of bacteria/plankton food web.  Depending on how detritus is managed, determines if it is food for the reef or organic waste to be disposed off.

 

https://www.thesprucepets.com/what-do-corals-eat-2924017

 

 

@AlmightyJoshaeus

 

To understand predator prey relationships helps to understand where things should go.  Everything eats phytoplankton, so it should be grown in a monoculture with no consumers.   If you can figure out a constant live phytoplankton drip, your system would flourish.  I don’t see much need for Rotifers, but I do ‘t raise fish larvae.  You will have much in tank live food production, particularly with micro fauna & fana in substrate. 

 

obviously, I disagree with crap comment.  I could easily operate a reef tank without live rock.  I use substrate as an incubator for in tank live food production.  For substrate to produce food, it needs to be feed and maintained.  If janitors are insufficient to keep substrate clean, then the Big Janitor can assist with more little people.

 

If you are going to run an NPS system, you should  think differrent than a sterile system.