Reducing water changes: methods, benefits, challenges & discussion

[Subsea]

4 hours ago, seabass said:

That's impressive.  But I thought you also mentioned use of a calcium reactor.  While a reactor might not technically fit the definition of dosing, it's similar.  If not, how much sand do you replace?  Is there a certain grain size that is more effective?

 

If we are simply talking about chasing pH with buffers, I think a lot of people here, including myself, are on board with you about not doing that.  But if we are talking about passive alkalinity buffering (through the substrate alone) being adequate to replenish alkalinity and calcium demands of a reef tank containing a significant amount of stony corals, then this is something that I would like to learn more about.

 

Can you just imagine what that would take?   But unfortunately, with the predicted acidification of the oceans, many people believe that in the future, the ocean floor isn't going to suitably buffer pH either.

 

I believe that this is what we are really talking about.  We might be able to include LPS in this category as well, possibly even coralline algae.  The consumption rates of alkalinity, and calcium, and magnesium seem to be just too high (when we have a significant amount of stony corals and/or calcareous algae in the tank) to be replenished through passive buffering alone.  Then we rely on dosing to replenish this consumption.  Or am I missing something?

We both said the same thing from differrent points of view.  I purposely have chosen not to do stony corals because of their inreased demand on alkalinity and higher maintenance requirements.  It is a simple choice.  By doing so, I don’t fret the small stuff.

 

i have used calcium reactors, Jaubert Plenums and dsb with aroggonite substrate.  For my first 20 yrs  I used calcium reactor on a 1500G system.  For the last 10 years, with many 50G-100G tanks not connected, I have not used calcium reactor.  However, with new research showing carbon dioxide grows coral and organic carbon grows bacteria, I am planning on a central calcium reactor with drips in many tanks.  Sounds like a good reefer project.

[seabass]

I see; then we are in agreement.

 

While softies will also benefit from stability, they don't need to consume the same amount of elements to build skeletal structures, so there is usually no need to dose.  Normally I would state that water changes are enough to replenish the deficiencies.  However, since we are discussing reducing water changes, maybe there aren't that many deficiencies to replenish.  It's nice the hear about your success using this method.

[Subsea]

4 minutes ago, seabass said:

I see; then we are in agreement.

 

While softies will also benefit from stability, they don't need to consume the same amount of elements to build skeletal structures, so there is usually no need to dose.  Normally I would state that water changes are enough to replenish the deficiencies.  However, since we are discussing reducing water changes, maybe there aren't that many deficiencies to replenish.  It's nice the hear about your success using this method.

One other fact about my makeup water, it comes out of the ground with TDS > 900.  So, my makeupwater is the equivalent of lime water.

[seabass]

1 hour ago, Subsea said:

One other fact about my makeup water, it comes out of the ground with TDS > 900.  So, my makeupwater is the equivalent of lime water.

That's an excellent point!  Thanks for that.  Most of us are using 0 TDS RO/DI or distilled.  In my head, I was wondering about the consumption (of calcium carbonate) required to make the spicules for their skeletons.

 

So for those of us using 0 TDS water, we would probably need a method to replenish these elements (even for a reef comprised mainly of soft corals).  In theory, that could be water changes, but like I said before, water changes are a relatively inefficient way to replenish elements.  Better yet, would be (like you stated) Kalkwasser, or dosing two part.

 

While most of us can't directly use our tap water, your water source makes me think more about our quest for 0 TDS water.  You know, years back, Kold Ster-il filters (from the makers of the Poly-Filter) gained popularity.  IDK, maybe this is still a viable method to avoid stripping out the elements that we have to dose back into our tanks.  We can still buy them today.  Plus, it makes water much faster than RO water, and there is no waste water.  Hmm, while not for everyone's water supply, I wonder if more people shouldn't be looking into it.

[Subsea]

Yes, my situation is unique, particularly in my outdoor aquaculture stuff.  With noon sun in excess of 4000 PAR and 105 degree peak temperatures, water temperature control and oxygenating water are paramount.  Both are solved by evaporative cooling.  With makeup water straight from the Aquifer  with every mineral  that was deposited in the shallow sea that made up Edwards Plateau limestone.  However, the methodology that I use is well established reef husbandry.  Water change protocols is my only deviation.  

 

With respect to dropping all maintenance because it’s ok to drop water change rules is the “wisdom of a fool”.  They should not be allowed to be stewards of a reef tank.   For some, a 50” flat screen 4K TV may be a better choice than a living , breathing ecosystem that requires due diligence to maintain.  While it’s true, I don’t water test, I observe bioindicators in the tank.  One comes to see cause and effect in a very logical progression of events.  With large systems, imbalance is slow to shift giving me advance “due notice”,to observe bioindicators and respond.  Once during my early informative years I learned a valuable experience with fast growing Caulerpa “going sexual”.  With 1000W MH over 150G tank, I had a macro lagoon with Caulerpa Prolifera & Caulerpa Paspoidies grew into lush meadows of feathers and thin blades contrasting texture as well as color between emerald green & bright green.   With 100 mollies adjusted to full strength salt, this lagoon was flourishing.  I went to bed with a sparkling clean water column.  All looked good.  As experience is the best teacher, I failed to see two tale tail signs which included tubular stems swollen to 3 times normal with white paste leaving stem.  When I awoke in the morning, even without lights on, I knew, “Houston, we have a problem”.   With 1000W of 6500 Kelvin MH, I lite up a 4’ by 2’ by 32” tank.  I could not see the back glass at 2’ away.  Brought in large HOB & cannistar filtets and loadedupon GAC.. 

 

PSS. With respect to testing water, I can get scientific results in less than 7 days on 28 complete Household Mineral test for $28.  They also analyzed the protein and mineral content of Red Ogo, Gracilaria Parvispora.  It was classified much higher than any land plant in mineral content.  My problem with respect to my ground water is high sulfur content of my groundwater.  Macro, pods, and fish all flourishing in high sulfur water.  Ediable seaweed, in the past, was bitter tasting.  Only with soy sauce, lime & tequila was it tolerable .  It made a pretty garnish.

 

 

 

[NanoRox]

I looked up the Ster-Il filters. Man those things are pricey.  The replacement media isn’t cheap either. Wonder if that is why they fell out of favor? 

[seabass]

When you consider the life of the filters and the fact that you don't have to include filtering waste water, they aren't nearly as expensive as you might think.

 

If I remember correctly, it wasn't a fit for everyone's water supply.  Sorry, I can't recall the details off the top of my head.  I may have to look into it again.

[Tamberav]

You have to send them a sample of your water as not all water will work with their system so they need to test it. I don't own a house, so this would never work well for me since moving changes water source. Also if your water changes, day to day, seasonally, ect... I would assume this could effect it as well. It is an option for few it seems.

[squamptonbc]

The total TDS of my tap is very low at 13ppm and I can achieve 0 with just using the RO membrane without the need for Di resin. I've wondered about just running the water through the sediment and carbon block and dumping the RO membrane, there are a good amount of reefers who have really nice tanks using straight tap with prime, but I am not willing to go that far, but wonder if I could get away with just running it through the sediment and carbon block.

 

I should send a sample off to see what is in the water after the carbon block but before the membrane.

 

I have no idea though, not a water expert.

 

http://www.metrovancouver.org/services/water/WaterPublications/2017WaterQualityAnnualReport-volume2.pdf

 

 

[seabass]

Wow, 13 TDS is very low.  I can see why people in your area can get by just using treated tap water.  So yeah, your RO water should be about 0.26 TDS.  I'd bet your RO membrane will last you close to 5 years.  Heck, if you ran a DI cartridge, it might last you well over a year.  You actually have a lot of options.

 

There won't be enough minerals in your water to make much difference to your levels, so it's more about how clean you'd like your water, and how much you are willing to spend on it.  If you'd like to add some minerals to it, you could add a little Kalkwasser to your top off water.

[squamptonbc]

1 hour ago, seabass said:

Wow, 13 TDS is very low.  I can see why people in your area can get by just using treated tap water.  So yeah, your RO water should be about 0.26 TDS.  I'd bet your RO membrane will last you close to 5 years.  Heck, if you ran a DI cartridge, it might last you well over a year.  You actually have a lot of options.

 

There won't be enough minerals in your water to make much difference to your levels, so it's more about how clean you'd like your water, and how much you are willing to spend on it.  If you'd like to add some minerals to it, you could add a little Kalkwasser to your top off water.

 

When I had DI hooked up it lasted over a year, never really lost color and wasn't exhausted, we just moved, and it dried out and I just never hooked it back up. As it was an add on and not part of the RO system originally, I converted it to a carbon reactor/media reactor by replacing the 1/4" quick connects with 1/2" and hooked up to a small cobalt pump.

 

We are pretty lucky with our water here, and yes I am sure the TDS isn't exactly 0 but the meter only reads in whole numbers so its close enough to 0 for my needs. 

 

 

[NanoRox]

One point or suggestion I would like to make as we discuss the potential of maintaining healthy tanks with fewer water changes is this...it is very valuable to have a professional test done of your current water parameters.  I have just recently used ATI but there  are others.  Some will say it is an unnecessary extravagance but it has been invaluable to me.  I thought I had “perfect water” only to find out I was running low on potassium and iodide and also had too much zinc.  Through this btw I found a screw I was using on my chaeto reactor was rusting and have since replaced it with a plastic screw. Anyway, it provides a definitive snap shot of where your tank is.  I don’t mind spending the $40 every 3 months or so to check on things beyond my home tests.   To be clear though, it’s not necessary and some folks may think it is silly. 

 

A word about ATI - they test nitrate where as some of the others do not.  They also test the RO/DI for free of you would like to submit a sample as well.  

[Subsea]

5 hours ago, Duane Clark said:

One point or suggestion I would like to make as we discuss the potential of maintaining healthy tanks with fewer water changes is this...it is very valuable to have a professional test done of your current water parameters.  I have just recently used ATI but there  are others.  Some will say it is an unnecessary extravagance but it has been invaluable to me.  I thought I had “perfect water” only to find out I was running low on potassium and iodide and also had too much zinc.  Through this btw I found a screw I was using on my chaeto reactor was rusting and have since replaced it with a plastic screw. Anyway, it provides a definitive snap shot of where your tank is.  I don’t mind spending the $40 every 3 months or so to check on things beyond my home tests.   To be clear though, it’s not necessary and some folks may think it is silly. 

 

A word about ATI - they test nitrate where as some of the others do not.  They also test the RO/DI for free of you would like to submit a sample as well.  

Nothing silly about seeking knowledge.  

[Subsea]

11 hours ago, seabass said:

That's an excellent point!  Thanks for that.  Most of us are using 0 TDS RO/DI or distilled.  In my head, I was wondering about the consumption (of calcium carbonate) required to make the spicules for their skeletons.

 

So for those of us using 0 TDS water, we would probably need a method to replenish these elements (even for a reef comprised mainly of soft corals).  In theory, that could be water changes, but like I said before, water changes are a relatively inefficient way to replenish elements.  Better yet, would be (like you stated) Kalkwasser, or dosing two part.

 

While most of us can't directly use our tap water, your water source makes me think more about our quest for 0 TDS water.  You know, years back, Kold Ster-il filters (from the makers of the Poly-Filter) gained popularity.  IDK, maybe this is still a viable method to avoid stripping out the elements that we have to dose back into our tanks.  We can still buy them today.  Plus, it makes water much faster than RO water, and there is no waste water.  Hmm, while not for everyone's water supply, I wonder if more people shouldn't be looking into it.

You have ignored the largest contributor of alkalinity.  Carbon dioxide in the athmosphere uses carbonate & bicarbonate solubility to produce alkalinity that combines with photosynthesis to form glucose.  Glucose is sugar.  It is the carbon pump for planet earth.

[Subsea]

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/12/aafeature

 

Dana Riddle article on dangers of too much water change,

[seabass]

58 minutes ago, Subsea said:

https://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/12/aafeature

 

Dana Riddle article on dangers of too much water change,

A very relevant article, by an experienced reefer.  It offers some real things to consider.

 

However, they were doing 50% water changes, one month apart.  You can expect big swings with that large of a water change, that far apart.  This allows considerable changes to occur between water changes.  If anything, it makes one want to do smaller, more frequent changes to reduce the impact of each change (including the time it takes to complete the change).

 

During the changes, the pumps were shut down, this alone can account for changes in Dissolved Oxygen.  However, the temperature was also raised - also affecting DO.

 

The article demonstrated that sudden changes can affect clarity, temperature, ORP, pH, and DO.  But just speculated how this might negatively affect the inhabitants.  What it does show is that large, infrequent changes do cause swings that we should be concerned with.  I really believe this is why many people recommend 10% weekly changes verses 40% monthly changes.

I know there are pico reefs that get 100% water changes every week and do not show visible long term harm.  I feel that this is due to not letting the parameters change drastically between changes.  It actually offers decent stability (and makes testing and dosing virtually unnecessary).

 

So my take away is to limit swings.  I don't necessarily think that this takes anything away from our discussion.  All it does is caution us that infrequent large changes can be potentially stressful.  We could potentially still reduce water changes if we can maintain stability (like through dosing to replenish consumed elements, use of activated carbon to prevent discoloration between changes, etc).

 

[seabass]

Here's another perspective on water changes: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

[NanoRox]

6 hours ago, seabass said:

Here's another perspective on water changes: http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/index.php

Interesting article.  The conclusion summary below related to Ca and alk is the most telling for me. 

"Calcium and alkalinity, being rapidly depleted in most reef aquaria, are not well controlled, or even significantly impacted by such small water changes. In order to maintain them with no other supplements, changes on the order of 30-50% PER DAY would be required. Nevertheless, that option may still be a good choice for very small aquaria, especially if the changes are slow and automatic.

Happy Reefing!"

 

IMO Ca and alk are THE most important factors to maintain in a reef aquarium.  Mg also to a lesser extent due to its correlation with Ca.  And, as in my case, the two factors I found the most difficult to maintain consistent levels when making lots of water changes.  Seems to me very small nano's/Pico's absolutely require high % and frequent water changes for success.  However, as volume increases and probably more importantly the higher the coral population, consistency is the most important goal.  For some that may mean regular water changes but for others, less frequent changes in conjunction with efficient nutrient export and dosing import makes the most sense.  

 

 

[seabass]

This is what we are talking about:

 

@MR.FEESH shared that video in this thread:

 

[NanoRox]

Nice video.   Stability, stability, stability.  The very reason I stopped making so many water changes.  

[reeferx2]

I have been implementing every other week water changes in my 4yr old nano reef with great results when compared to every week. I have also removed my chaeto. Now with noticeable nitrates - roughly 1ppm, my tank has been doing fantastic. 

 

Current regiment is W/C every other week of 1.25 gallons - my tank is roughly 5.5 gallons total, I don't know how much volume my rocks take up, there's roughly 8lbs. So we'll have to assume my water volume is closer to 4.5 gallons. 

 

Running a AC20 with floss and chemi blue nano - replacing floss roughly once it looks shitty and the chemi every month/looking shitty as well. 

 

Had to come back and edit this post - forgot to mention that I have been dosing with seachem 2 part since the new WC schedule. Still dialing that in, but I think I've nailed it at .3ml A and .5ml B every 3rd day. 

 

Here's a shot from over a month ago before I switching things up. Growth has actually been much better now. 

[NanoRox]

4 minutes ago, reeferx2 said:

I have been implementing every other week water changes in my 4yr old nano reef with great results when compared to every week. I have also removed my chaeto. Now with noticeable nitrates - roughly 1ppm, my tank has been doing fantastic. 

 

Current regiment is W/C every other week of 1.25 gallons - my tank is roughly 5.5 gallons total, I don't know how much volume my rocks take up, there's roughly 8lbs. So we'll have to assume my water volume is closer to 4.5 gallons. 

 

Running a AC20 with floss and chemi blue nano - replacing floss roughly once it looks shitty and the chemi every month/looking shitty as well. 

 

Here's a shot from over a month ago before I switching things up. Growth has actually been much better now. 

Very nice @reeferx2 Love the Riccordea. 

[NanoReeferNY]

On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 8:28 AM, Duane Clark said:

Wait, am I reading that correctly?  You have set up a tank and no water changes yet? If that is the case I need to sit down with you and learn everything you know.  That’s impressive.  

Yup, actually and technically I had a dino outbreak the first 3 months, I did do awhole tank cleaning so I guess ive done 1 major water change but I also swapped out the rock and sand too during that period - but since learning about how to combat dino and winning the battle and knowing water changes during that time only add to the fire - ive yet to do one and honestly might  not in the near future unless things get out of whack - realizing that the trace elements are so minor that your replacing with a water change unless your doing more than 25% that its pretty useless and nothing some supplements cant handle - having a good skimmer to helps a ton! I use to do Nano tanks but now onto somewhat larger 65g so the wc schedule maybe different but done lots of research on this, checkout R2R forums on this topic a lot to learn there! 

[JustinReef]

I don't have a lot to add to this discussion but it's got some really great info. 

 

I do believe that one day water changes will be a thing of the past or used only for emergencies (maybe). Most likely a few "old school" reefers will still do them just because they can't let go of the past but it's pretty hard for me to imagine this hobby does not evolve away from water changes. 

 

It will probably be amusing to reefers of the future when they learn that we used to do weekly water changes 😂

[NanoRox]

12 hours ago, JustinReef said:

I don't have a lot to add to this discussion but it's got some really great info. 

 

I do believe that one day water changes will be a thing of the past or used only for emergencies (maybe). Most likely a few "old school" reefers will still do them just because they can't let go of the past but it's pretty hard for me to imagine this hobby does not evolve away from water changes. 

 

It will probably be amusing to reefers of the future when they learn that we used to do weekly water changes 😂

I agree.  There will always be the need for water changes (to correct serious issues and for tank start-up) but with advances in both our understanding and technologies to assist in nutrient export and supplement dosing, the need for frequent water changes will be or is already a thing of the past.