MrBill's 10g

[MrBill2u]

I have been bitten by the reef bug again after 5 years away.  The first batch of pieces and parts for my light showed up today so I figured it was time to start a journal.  The original plan was to go with an Innovative Marine Nuvo Fusion 20 AIO, but I have shifted gears to go with a chaeto refugium as primary nutrient export.  For rock work I am using reef cleaners' base rock as it advertises no curing and I do not feel comfortable running a full cure in the apartment.  A local club member gave me some rock to get things seeded.  I am a nerd and controller building/coding interests me, so the plan is to do any electronic controls or monitoring as an IoT project and using the adafruit WICED feather so I can start learning the Amazon IoT stack.  I will running a *very* light bioload as I am not interested in keeping too many fish in a small space.  Likely I will limit myself to something like a tailspot blenny and maybe a clown goby.  

 

It seems to be standard to list out equipment here. Here is the most recent inventory

 

Equipment

10g rimmed

Medium HOB refugium

2xCobalt nano-stream

DIY LED lights and control

DIY refugium light

 

Filtration

No3:Po4-x dosing (no skimmer, no mechanical)

Chaeto

 

CUC and inverts 

Emerald crab

Peppermint shrimp

4x Dwarf Cerith

3x Nerites

3x Nassarius Vibex

 

Corals 

An assortment of mushrooms

 

Fish 

Tail spot blenny

 

Main objective

I am looking to have a lightly stocked open layout that emphasizes as many different fluorescent colors as I can find.  Greens and orange seem to be easy to come by, so I am most interested in the pinks, light blues and different shades of yellow.  I am in an apartment now, so I am looking to stay small and learn until I get into a space where I can build out a bigger setup.  Being a nerd I am rather set on trying my hand at my own coding for controls, so my hobbyist objective is to do as much of the electronics sensing and control work as I can myself.  

 

 

I know how much this community likes pics, so I added a pic of the first equipment to hit my mailbox.  One of the themes of the new tank will be "things the fluoresce in fun colors" so I went out of my way to ensure I had broad spectrum violets and blues.  This light will have 3 each of the SemiLED 390-400, 400-410, 410-420 and 420-430 UV/violet LEDs as well as 3 of the ultramarine royals supporting the 12 RBs.  That should hit the excitation spectrum of most things found in a marine environment that fluoresce.   To even out the light I have a few blue, lime, cool white and warm white LEDs as well, but this one will lean heavily towards the blues and violets.   

[MrBill2u]

After seeing so many of your beautiful reefs out here I am starting to wonder if my first tank shouldn't be an observation tank.  I could not imagine how gut wrenching it would be to accidentally introduce something destructive into such a lovely ecosystem.  

[MrBill2u]

There is no tank yet.  The LEDs are physically mounted on the heat sink now and the mains power is wired up.  I got to put in about 6 hours today getting the Adafruit WICED talking to the  Arduino IDE and laying down a first pass at code.  Instead of the typical scene to scene fade on most light controllers I decided to apply a touch of physics and math to the problem.  The code accepts inputs of absorption coefficients for each channel, a depth number and a mix level for noon sun.  It then figures out the amount of water the light would pass through at every time of day and sets the levels for each channel based on how much light would be absorbed by that much water given that absorption coefficient.  

 

This is not exactly an exciting video, but it shows what the code does with a single common anode RGB LED with rough absorption coefficients for red, green and blue, a blueish noon mix and a depth of 50 meters set.  I compressed the day into 90 seconds and I placed the LED behind a translucent white plexi so the color would show up right in the video.  With these results I am more excited than ever to make those next 70 or so solder joints and get the real light throwing color.   Maybe I'll have something to put it over by Autumn...

 

 

[Lula_Mae]

Nice!  This is a good hobby for someone who enjoys tinkering with equipment.  Regarding the Reef Cleaners rock--it's been cured to get rid of all the organic matter on it, then dried out, so it will still require a cycle to establish the beneficial bacteria.  A lot of people use a bacteria supplement and some ammonia to get the cycle going, and/or seed with a small piece of live rock purchased locally.

[MrBill2u]

Let there be light!  I do not have a PAR meter, but my light meter reads this as ISO100 16EV at 12" with all 4 channels driven 100%.  It is bright.

 

 

[MrBill2u]

I have decided to keep it small and simple until I get out of the apartment.  I have a theory that NOPOX could work without a skimmer if you keep high flow in the display and low flow in a refugium with absolutely no mechanical filtration on the system if the bioload is kept light.  With no mechanical filtration and no dead zone in the display any of the bacteria colonies that flocculate off the LR or out of the sand would settle in the refugium and provide food for pods.  Chaeto would be my primary form of nutrient export, but keeping a dose of NOPOX around 25% of the recommended would help feed thriving bacterial colonies to faster respond to transients in nutrient levels.  By feeding the microfauna and not filtering them out I can speed up the decomposition of detritus so that even if nutrient sinks occur there are enough critters available to efficiently break them down to get them quickly into something usable by the chaeto.  

 

With the new small simple test tank in mind I set up a 10g rimmed tank and started getting the cycle rolling.  I am on day 4 of the red sea reef mature program and have all my lights up now.  The refugium light is a RapidLED DIY that is kicking about 800 PAR into a medium HOB refugium.  The main lights are another RapidLED DIY that is controlled by microcontroller.  It is coded up now and is providing color shifts based on each channels absorption coefficient and the amount of water the light would pass through given the angle of the sun at that time of day and the programmed depth.  Sunset and sunrises are amazing.  Full noon sun lasts about 5 hours and I am hitting 250-350 PAR across the top half of the tank during those times.  I am currently running an 11 hour total photoperiod.  

 

Here is a shot of both lights

 

The refugium light

 

Current FTS

[Weetabix7]

Interesting.......

[DAP]

What is your live stock plan?

[MrBill2u]

I am terrible at photoshop, but this kind of works.  It shows how rough the plan is so far in my head.  The basic idea for this tank is to keep it mixed to see how well different corals do in this oddball setup. CUC will be a couple nassarius vibex, a couple dwarf cerith, a few nerites, an emerald crab, a peppermint shrimp and everything I can do to encourage benthic and planktonic microfauna.  I am planning on limiting fish load to only a tail spot blenny.  For corals I am thinking about letting a colony of micromusa dominate the left rock pile, birds nest dominate right and an island of corallimorpharia in the front.  Then I can fill in as I like.  

 

[MrBill2u]

I was tired of my pictures being *way* too artificially blue.  My tank does not look anything even close to that blue, but it appears the digital sensors read UV as blue and royal blue as BRIGHT ROYAL BLUE.  I picked up a Tiffen 85 to try and combat this and my niece stopped up with her Nikon to snap a few shots and see if we couldnt get a pic that looks... well... like my tank looks   The dinoflagellates are out in full force now right on the day that the Red Sea reef mature kit warned me I should see dinos and cyano.  This one little hitchhiker appears to not mind the fact that I am showing .5 ammonia and 2.0 nitrites.  I could never get the green to show on it like it does in person, but my niece, her Nikon and that Tiffen 85 were able to coax it out.  I did no fixing in photoshop other than scaling it back, converting to jpg and setting the color on the NEF import to 12000K.

 

 

[RayWhisperer]

You need this avatar.

[MrBill2u]

11 minutes ago, RayWhisperer said:

You need this avatar.

Agreed.

[DAP]

Photoshop plan looks great!

 

[MrBill2u]

The CUC and chaeto arrived yesterday.  The shrimp and snails all hid or froze when added, but the emerald crab immediately began eating.  Then he ate some more.  Then he did a little more eating.  He picked up each of the nassarius snails to make sure they weren't food, but dropped them when they protested.  He then spotted his reflection and spent an hour flexing in the mirror.  I am pretty sure this crab is male.

 

[MrBill2u]

As part of my "encourage microfauna" strategy in this setup I started feeding the whole tank last week.  To simulate natural planktonic cycles I feed the following half hour after sunrise and half hour before sunset:

 

.5ml Reef Energy A

.5ml ReefEnergy B

.5ml PhytoGreen-S

1/64 tsp Golden Pearl 5-50

1/64 tsp Golden Pearl 50-100

1/64 tsp Golden Pearl 100-200

1/64 tsp Golden Pearl 200-300

1/64 tsp Golden Pearl 300-500

 

I mix that together with some tank water and let set for a few minutes before feeding.  In the morning I target feed the 3 tiny mushrooms and broadcast the rest.  They love it!  At night I broadcast all of it to leave more for the refugium.  The tank is starting to get a little hairy during the day, but that goes away over night.  I cracked a window in the apartment a few days ago and added chaeto when I got a PH reading of 8.0 with a dKH of 10.6.  Nothing changed yesterday, but this morning the PH was back up to 8.4.  Looks like I have my CO2 back in check.  With the twice daily feeding the NOPOX and chaeto seems to still be winning.  My cycle spiked at 64 nitrates, but has been slowly coming down.  I measured the nitrates at 4ppm this morning.  They were 8 yesterday and 16 the day before so it seems like a pretty consistent curve now.

[RayWhisperer]

Risky business putting inverts in with high nitrates.  Wait. Never mind. You put them in yesterday... that wasn't 64 ppm.... that was 8.

 

Thats a lot of food, especially for such a young tank. Even with your theories, pods, bacteria, and other microfauna are just starting to get established. I'd lighten the load.

[MrBill2u]

Are you more concerned with the half milliliter of phyto or the 64th of a teaspoon of GP? I do not have any smaller spoons

[RayWhisperer]

I'm not concerned with any of it, as it's not my tank. Lol.

 

what you have to think about is, those are all dead versions of plankton, or, a simulated plankton bloom. It's not like the ocean where there is

A an established bacterial and microfauna population

B an established reef, or food chain

C huge amounts of volume of clean water to offset any nutrient buildup

D a deep, cold area for anything dead to settle out in an be consumed while decomposition occurs over a span of months, not days

E a huge reservoir of live sand and rock with more types of bacteria, detrivores, and microfauna than we will ever be able to sustain in a closed system

F living plankton, contributing to not just the food chain, but actually not polluting the water

 

im not saying this idea won't work. Im actually trying something somewhat similar myself. Im only suggesting you find a way to minimize the volume of food you are "dosing" the system with. Whether that is by smaller measurements, dosing fewer times, rotating what you are dosing, or just cutting some of the foods out altogether. I just think with an unestablished system, you are headed for a certain crash. That could come about in any number of ways.

 

Think about bacteria populations, and how they metabolize food, for example. As they do so, they consume oxygen. So, dosing food and nopox to spike the bacteria after lights out could lead to ph dropping to deadly levels by morning. That's just one example. Nutrient buildup in the sand and rock is another. I know you are using cheats, but whiteout a huge ball of healthy macro, what you are doing is less than a half measure by comparison.

Edit. Cheato, not cheats.stupid autocorrect.

[MrBill2u]

I am very new to this hobby and I have absolutely no idea what a large amount of food or a small amount is.  I am currently running 500 PAR on an inverse lighting cycle over a 3.5 gallon refugium full of chaeto.  It is not a huge ball, but frankly I doubt the size of the ball matters.  In theory chaeto growth should be based the surface area of the tank it is in times the average PAR over that tank assuming you are not getting to PAR levels that burn the chaeto.  The surface area is all I am concerned about since light barely penetrates an inch into the chaeto. Anything deeper into the ball is just there to provide housing for microfauna.  My 48 square inches of chaeto under 500 PAR is probably growing more mass/day than the average 144 square inch sump under 30PAR of clip on lighting.

 

You obviously have an opinion on a good amount because you immediately thought that these tiny amounts (to me) of food were way too much.  "Thinking about it" doesn't help me because I have never fed a tank this type of food before.  I have absolutely no reference to what is not enough and what is too much other than what my test kits and observations are telling me.  The test kits say I am at 8ppm nitrates and .08 ppm phosphates and both of those numbers are falling.  I am seeing some hairy stuff starting to grow, which is obviously using up some of those nutrients.  My chaeto is not yet out competing the hairy stuff, but the PH rise along with the nutrient drop gives me some comfort that it is working as intended.  The crab seems more than content with his food supply, the nerites are dropping eggs like it is their job and the peppermint shrimp molted this morning. 

 

To me these are mixed signals.  The hairy stuff and obvious signs of vigor and vitality from the livestock are pointing to overfeeding.  The speed at which my nutrients are dropping tells me I should hold off cutting feeding just yet.  I am glad you shared your opinion, but paralyzed with indecision at this point.  Most of that is due to lack of experience and situational awareness of how much food *feels* right peppered with thoughts of "only bad things happen fast".

[RayWhisperer]

I'm sorry, but I can't give you an exact measurement. That can only come from you through trial and error, as well as closely monitoring your parameters. Since you can't get smaller measurements, why not just feed one or two of those foods at each feeding, instead of all of them. Then rotate them out by the week. This will not only allow you to monitor your system and see if the response is similar, or better. This will also allow you to determine by testing, which foods will leave more nutrients behind.

 

remember also, that cheato at the bottom, and center, it's dying. As it dies, it decomposes and releases its nutrient load back into the water. Macros are meant to be harvested, hence the theory of nutrient EXPORT.

 

I like your thought process, I really do. It's on par with mine. You just need to get a better understanding of what is going on in the system, as well as in the ocean. Then you'll be better able to make an informed guess as to how much to feed how often. That can only come through research. Read up on the processes you are trying to emulate. Then, instead of stocking the tank with corals and animals you want, consider what creatures would utilize the conditions you are creating.

 

one last thing to consider. The ocean, for all intents and purposes, is a fixed system. The amount of nutrients that are available the day you were born, will be the same amount available on the day you die. Sure, dumping, runoff, space dust, it all adds up. However, it's miniscule compared to the volume of the ocean. The ocean is essentially a closed system. Nothing comes in, nothing gets out. Everything is used. 

[Weetabix7]

34 minutes ago, MrBill2u said:

I am very new to this hobby and I have absolutely no idea what a large amount of food or a small amount is.  I am currently running 500 PAR on an inverse lighting cycle over a 3.5 gallon refugium full of chaeto.  It is not a huge ball, but frankly I doubt the size of the ball matters.  In theory chaeto growth should be based the surface area of the tank it is in times the average PAR over that tank assuming you are not getting to PAR levels that burn the chaeto.  The surface are is all I am concerned about since light barely penetrates an inch into the chaeto. Anything deeper into the ball is just there to provide housing for microfauna.  

 

You obviously have an opinion on a good amount because you immediately thought that these tiny amounts (to me) of food were way too much.  "Thinking about it" doesn't help me because I have never fed a tank this type of food before.  I have absolutely no reference to what is not enough and what is too much other than what my test kits and observations are telling me.  The test kits say I am at 8ppm nitrates and .08 ppm phosphates and both of those numbers are falling.  I am seeing some hairy stuff starting to grow, which is obviously using up some of those nutrients.  My chaeto is as of yet not out competing the hairy stuff, but the PH rise along with the nutrient drop gives me some comfort that it is working as intended.  The crab seems more than content with his food supply, the nerites are dropping eggs like it is their job  and the peppermint shrimp molted this morning. 

 

To me these are mixed signals.  The hairy stuff and obvious signs of vigor and vitality from the livestock are pointing to overfeeding.  The speed at which my nutrients are dropping tells me I should hold off cutting feeding just yet.  I am glad you shared your opinion, but paralyzed with indecision at this point.  Most of that is due to lack of experience and situational awareness of how much food *feels* right peppered with thoughts of "only bad things happen fast".

 

I would cut back feeding to at least once a day instead of twice a day. 

[MrBill2u]

OK, new plan is to feed 1/64 tsp of the smallest and largest GP in the morning, then feed the liquids in the evening.  That way I cut back the total nutrients added per day by over half and still keep the really small stuff fed twice a day.  I started that today.  We'll see how the system responds.   The tail spot blenny arrives Tuesday.  Hopefully he likes the little tufts of the hairy stuff.

 

 

[Reefkid88]

But why feed so much on such a small tank with VERY little life and bacteria to take care of the waste ? Just seems like failure waiting to happen,and a crash to happen soon after. I just think youre thinking too much on all of this,the simple method definitely takes the cake. 

 

 Take my tank,slapped full of Acan,Zoa and Favia's and I feed 1-2 times a week with a 35% water change. 

 

 Thats just my .2 though,not trying to beat up you or your theory. 

[MrBill2u]

1 hour ago, Reefkid88 said:

not trying to beat up you or your theory. 

Feels that way at this point.  I stopped feeding.  I seriously had no idea that 1/64th of a teaspoon was like dumping a barge full of double cheesburgers in the tank.  when shit starts emaciating I will start the feeding again.  Anyone have a source for a 1/1024th of a teaspoon measuring needle?

[RayWhisperer]

Lol. Nobody's beating up on you. I've said the two harshest things in this thread, both in jest. 1 being, "I don't care, as it's not my tank." and 2 being "you need this as your avatar."

 

if you are waiting for your corals to become emaciated from lack of feeding, you might wait a lifetime. Corals photosynthesize because shallow tropical reefs are almost sterile environments when it comes to available food. There will be mass spawning events, as well as small, nightly spawning events. Plus, a bit of food brought in by tides. However, by our standards, corals live on a diet of almost no solid food.

 

Now, don't take that as a reason not to feed at all. Corals can benefit from feeding. You will see a marked increase in growth, and reproduction, from occasional feedings. It's more of a balancing act between water quality and feeding. 

 

I know now this all probably seems counterintuitive and isn't making much sense to you. So, I'll use my tank as an example. As I said, I'm doing something similar in thought processes to you. My tank is a 7.5 gallon stocked primarily with non photosynthetics. I'm focusing on sponges and tunicates, instead of a typical coral reef setup. Now, that's a tricky balance to achieve, since they require great water quality, yet need actual feedings, since they don't acquire any food or energy from photosynthesis. I feed my tank 1 ml of phyto twice a week, and dose vodka at .5 ml the day after each feeding. The only reason I actually feed phyto, is to support my microfauna population. Those sponges and tunicates probably benefit from 1/10th of the total amount of phyto I'm dosing. They feed primarily on the bacteria in the water column. That's why I'm dosing vodka. It's an easily assimilated carbon source for the bacteria. Basically the same thing you are doing with nopox. However, without sponges or skimming, you are spiking bacteria populations, without any means to remove them. That's why a skimmer is recommended when using nopox. It's a means of nutrient export.the bacteria consume nitrates and phosphates, and are removed via skimming. However, I'm not exporting nutrients in my system. I'm binding them in the flesh of the animals that consume the bacteria.

 

Ok, I probably just went way too far into it for you. I'm sorry about that. I get pretty geeky when it comes to this shit. And somehow, even though it's almost like common knowledge to me, I forget most folks just get glassy eyed by about my second sentence. Suffice it to say, you could get by on feeding a ml, or less of phyto everyday. Many don't feed anything for corals or microfauna at all, and still have thriving, beautiful reef tanks. It's a matter of knowledge and balance. And that, nobody can give you. It's all got to be learned because each system is different.

 

just to give you another point of view. Look up brandon429. He's got a jar reef that's around 10 years old. I'm not entirely sure, but I think he feeds once a week, followed by a 100% water change, as well as a complete flush of his sand bed. Now, I don't follow that methodology, but I can't argue with the results, either.