THE OFFICIAL ASK ALBERT THIEL THREAD

[albertthiel]

With that big of a change I would suspect the tests rather than that's your daily usage. Especially with the difference in Mag. It just doesn't drop that low in one day.

 

Yes indeed ... and I am waiting for an update from zemuss once the tests have been done and once we know more about why that pH remains so low even with all that light. My guess at this point is that it may be a CO2 issue, and of course I would like to see the results of low range testing for NO3 and PO4 and hopefully we'll get those today.

 

Albert

[eitallent]

Well that is somewhat of a mystery indeed. And yes I agree that he must have passed away just before you found him as there was no predation.

 

The life span of those Wrasse is hard to pin down as there are references to as short as 3 years for specimens that were eating like pigs and looked in perfect good health, to 5 years and longer in their natural environment. Do you have any idea how old the Wrasse may have been? How long have you had it? What size was it approximately.

 

I am wondering whether it just died of old age based on being in an aquarium and not in the wild.

 

I did some more checking on the algae issue and there are no references that what they released would have caused the fish to pass away even if he had eaten some of that milky matter, which is unlikely as it is not something fish do as they are not attracted to it based on info I have.

 

Given that there were no signs of anything being wrong with it and that he was eating well we can exclude starvation as a cause as well.

 

I have to assume at this point that it just passed away due to age and not because of any other reason but I will keep looking and if I come across any other information that may explain what happened I will post it here for sure.

 

Again sorry about the loss

 

Albert

 

Thank you, Albert.

 

It is sad to lose such a beautiful creature. I really enjoyed him while he was in the tank. I am grateful all the other creatures in my care, scaled and furry, are well this morning.

[albertthiel]

A few Tank Pictures taken yesterday

 

Notice the new Mushrooms on the bottom right .. the new babies that were behind a LR and that I moved to the front .. there are 3 of them

 

 

The small Pavona Frags and the Lantern Basslet

 

 

The Pavona cluster with the flat growth that keeps expanding

 

 

R. florida (actual size)

 

 

Yuma Teen showing a nice growth

 

 

Albert

[danimal1211]

Albert, with my PH issues I've had (and this sounds like this person may be having the same issues). I remember reading what Metrokat was doing during the power outage from Sandy, and this is what I've been doing twice a day for the past week.

 

I take an air-tight water bottle and fill it half way with tank water. Take it outside and shake for 30 seconds. Open it and let it rest until all bubbles are settled then seal it and shake it for another 30 seconds. Rather than letting the bubbles dissipate, this time I walk back inside and pour the water back in the tank. The hope is the first shake will release CO2 and when the container is opened the first time, the old air is forced out and new outside air replaces it.

 

I've been doing this twice a day once in the morning and once in the evening. I just tested my PH, lights don't come on until 10:30am and it reads 8.0. Man I can't wait till my oxydator gets here.

[albertthiel]

Thank you, Albert.

 

It is sad to lose such a beautiful creature. I really enjoyed him while he was in the tank. I am grateful all the other creatures in my care, scaled and furry, are well this morning.

 

Glad to read it and thanks for the update eitallent. I appreciate it. I know you take excellent care of all of them for sure.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Albert, with my PH issues I've had (and this sounds like this person may be having the same issues). I remember reading what Metrokat was doing during the power outage from Sandy, and this is what I've been doing twice a day for the past week. I take an air-tight water bottle and fill it half way with tank water. Take it outside and shake for 30 seconds. Open it and let it rest until all bubbles are settled then seal it and shake it for another 30 seconds. Rather than letting the bubbles dissipate, this time I walk back inside and pour the water back in the tank. The hope is the first shake will release CO2 and when the container is opened the first time, the old air is forced out and new outside air replaces it. I've been doing this twice a day once in the morning and once in the evening. I just tested my PH, lights don't come on until 10:30am and it reads 8.0. Man I can't wait till my oxydator gets here.

 

Thanks .. that is certainly one way to try to alleviate excess CO2 in the water and is a good method to reduce its impact on the pH indeed. I like ... !

 

Thanks for sharing that and maybe those who have pH issue can try that out as well and hopefully it will help them stabilize their pH somewhat if it is too low.

 

If the tank is close to a window or door and the skimmer air intake can be routed to the outside with some airline tubing that will help as well of course but not everyone can do it as the tank may be too far from an outside source of air.

 

Great idea by Metrokat !

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Paul commented but ....

How many would do a postmortem on a small fish and if they did would they know what they are looking for.

the cause of death.

Les.

 

There was not text Paul ... not sure whether you wanted to make a comment on Les' post but if you did the text did not come through.

 

Now I know you do the postmortem and just for our information what have you been able to determine at times ... just interested in knowing whether you did find anything that was a clear indication of why you may have lost a fish ...

 

Thanks

 

Albert

[zemuss]

Sorry for the late reply but I was on my Radio Show on Nano Reef Aquariums and it only just finished now.

 

What I think the issues may be are the pH and possibly that your phosphates and nitrates may be too high ... if you measure those then we'll know and on the pH we need to figure out why it is that low as that is too low for SPS corals ... you should try and get it to 8.2 after the lights have been on for a few hours. The 7.9 in the morning is not all that bad, higher would be better but in the morning the pH tends to be lower than it is after photosynthesis has started as that makes the pH go up as the amount of CO2 in the water dimities.

 

You may want to try and blow some fans over the top of water to get more oxygen exchange and create more turbulence at the top by perhaps directing the flow of a power head towards the top. Also if the tank is in a room where the air is high in CO2 that will get into the water and depress the pH.

 

With a KH of > 10 I would not add any buffers to try to raise the pH as you will end up with an even higher dKH and it will end up being too high.

 

I believe excess CO2 is the issue that is causing your low pH.

 

BTW are you using a skimmer? If so that will also introduce more CO2 if the air in the room where the tank is is high in it. Opening a door or a window and letting outside air in for a while will help with that as well but I do not know if that is possible due to the outside temperature ...

 

And the other reason as I said that you may not have any success with SPS may be due to too high PO4, so if you get a low range test kit pls measure the level and let me know. Thanks.

 

On the Calcium and Magnesium : as long as you do water changes and as long as you keep your calcium level up you should be fine. The Mg level at 1400 is in the right range. Calcium at 425 is OK as well. BTW how do you maintain your calcium level? Do you add Kalkwasser or is it another method ...

 

I know ... a lot of questions but by getting more info I can hopefully help you in getting all parameters under control.

 

If need be and you use a skimmer (which you should IMO) and CO2 in the room is an issue then you may need to use a CO2 scrubber and if that is needed I will explain how to do so once I get your responses to the questions in this post

 

Albert

 

Albert,

 

Thanks for the reply and the help with this issue which has been an issue for over a year now.

 

Below are the answers to your questions:

 

With regards to the fans, I have four fans blowing over the top of the tank so that I the Metal Halides do not raise my temperature. Current temp is 77 to 79 range. Usually 78.

 

Since keeping track of my CALC, KH and MG I do not dose KH anymore, but do does for Calcium because I do not want it lower than 425.

 

I currently dose this two part solution: http://www.marinedepot.com/E.S.V._B_Ionic_Calcium_Buffer_System_Part_2_1_Gallon_Calcium_Refill_Two_Part_Calcium_Alkalinity_Additives_Supplements-E.S.V.-EV1341-FIADTP-vi.html

 

However, I am moving to a Kalkwasser setup to eliminate the two part system. The Kalk reactor will be tied into the ATO system.

 

I use a Bubble Magus 3.5+ skimmer, so I would be shocked if there was an excess of CO2 in the water. I also have the nozzle of my return pointed at the surface to create surface agitation. However, I will not rule out the PH until I start testing the levels again. What test kit should I use? Recommendations welcomed.

 

As for the PO4 issue, I get my water checked weekly and po4 is always non-detectible with the Red Sea test kit. Should I invest in a hanna checker for po4?

 

Thanks,

"Z'

[albertthiel]

Albert,

Thanks for the reply and the help with this issue which has been an issue for over a year now.

Below are the answers to your questions:

With regards to the fans, I have four fans blowing over the top of the tank so that I the Metal Halides do not raise my temperature. Current temp is 77 to 79 range. Usually 78.

Since keeping track of my CALC, KH and MG I do not dose KH anymore, but do does for Calcium because I do not want it lower than 425.

 

I currently dose this two part solution: http://www.marinedepot.com/E.S.V._B_Ionic_Calcium_Buffer_System_Part_2_1_Gallon_Calcium_Refill_Two_Part_Calcium_Alkalinity_Additives_Supplements-E.S.V.-EV1341-FIADTP-vi.html

 

However, I am moving to a Kalkwasser setup to eliminate the two part system. The Kalk reactor will be tied into the ATO system.

I use a Bubble Magus 3.5+ skimmer, so I would be shocked if there was an excess of CO2 in the water. I also have the nozzle of my return pointed at the surface to create surface agitation. However, I will not rule out the PH until I start testing the levels again. What test kit should I use? Recommendations welcomed.

As for the PO4 issue, I get my water checked weekly and po4 is always non-detectible with the Red Sea test kit. Should I invest in a hanna checker for po4?

Thanks,

"Z'

 

Based on what I read I do not see anything wrong in what you are doing. So why your pH is still a problem is somewhat of a mystery as if you do not feel that CO2 is the issue then has to be something else and based on your practices I do not quite see what it could be unless the room the tank is in is high in CO2 and not aerated enough and the excess CO2 in the air transfer to the water which will lower your pH.

 

I think that when you switch to KW that you will see a big difference and the pH will start to go up slowly but surely so the sooner you can do that the better IMO.

 

Now on the pH test, getting a measuring device is probably best and there are a whole series of small testers on the market. On the PO4 you could get the Hanna one but the Red Sea one should give you accurate results as long as it is not expired. If you have frozen food for your fish thaw some and draw off the liquid and test that and you should get a real high reading which would tell you that your test is still good.

 

Then I think we ought to wait till you start using the KW and see what changes that brings about and IME they will be positive. Other than that change I would not change anything else for now.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

With that big of a change I would suspect the tests rather than that's your daily usage. Especially with the difference in Mag. It just doesn't drop that low in one day.

 

Yes that is indeed another point and a good one you make ... Maybe the tests are expired ... I did suggest one way to test the PO4 one in my other message.

 

OTOH I still think this is a CO2 issue as there is no reason for the pH to be that low with the other parameters of the water.

 

Let's see what comes back based on my message. Thanks for your post danimal1211 ... and I guess you know Josiah T. right :-)

 

I do not know him personally but I did send him about 130 pages of my book and asked him to review them and he is the one who's review I posted a couple of days ago.l

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Albert,

I currently dose this two part solution: http://www.marinedepot.com/E.S.V._B_Ionic_Calcium_Buffer_System_Part_2_1_Gallon_Calcium_Refill_Two_Part_Calcium_Alkalinity_Additives_Supplements-E.S.V.-EV1341-FIADTP-vi.html

 

"Z'

 

Remember that if you run a 2-part additive you are buffering the water even more and based on the numbers I do not think that at this point you need to do so.

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

Yes I do autopsies on a fish if it dies for no known cause which almost never happens. Generally if a fish lasts a month or so, it will live for many years unless it jumps out or I give it away as I do sometimes give fish to public aquariums or other hobbiests if they get to large or beligerant.

I have found that the most fatalities are soon after putting them in the tank and I have found in the majority of the thinner fish like copperbands and long nose butterflies that they seem to be injured durring collection or shipping. The fish starts with a small lump on it's side that gradually enlarges and turns dark. Upon autopsy, I will find internal bleeding as it looks like one of the ribs punctures a vessel which I can't see in such a small animal but I can see the bleeding clearly. The blood has no place to go and putrifies and stinks.

I have seen this quite a few times on thin bodied fish.

I also always take a biopsy on the gills to look for paracites and in my tank I have never found any. My last 12 year old watchman gobies that died seemed perfectly healthy. I looked at their gills and organs and there was no sign of disease or trama so I assume they died of old age as they gradually slowed down and stopped eating.

It is sometimes tough to determine the cause of death just by seeing a dead fish just as it is not easy to see what a human died just by looking at the body. Of course if there is an arrow going through the neck, the diagnosis is easier.

Sometimes dead fish will show a clue, like if it dies with it's mouth agape or gills flared out or red. If it swam around in cicrcles before it died, or gulped air from the surface. I am not sure if fish get heart attacks, kidney stones or gout but if you want to know how it died and it doesn't have that arrow thing, you need to do an autopsy. You first need a book of fish insides so you know what you are looking for but even if you don't know what to look fot you should be able to see the gills and know what paracites look like. Inside the digestive tract there should be no worms and there should be no blood clots in the muscles or blood in the body cavity.

 

 

Speaking of trains

I remember once about 20 years ago I was coming home from work on the Long Island Railroad and I was reading this article in "FAMMA" magazine

(Fresh water and Marine aquarium) I was reading about this guy that had this old tank with these stupidly sounding methods and I remember saying to myself, boy, this guy doesn't have a clue. But as I read, I learned that it was me. I submitted the article like a year before and forgot about it. That was the first thing I published and I was so excited that I looked around to show some of the people I knew, but no one was on the train that I knew. So I waited for the ticket guy to come by and I showed it to him as I proudly pointed out the picture of my tank to him.

He responded by saying "ticket".

 

This copperband died from internal bleeding shortly after I bought him as I discovered diring an autopsy.

You can see that little spot on his spine just to the left of the yellow stribe below the big dot.

 

[zemuss]

Albert,

 

I am going to test PH tonight and get back to you.

 

In the meantime can you provide me a link on how to create the CO2 scrubber?

 

Thanks,

TIM S.

[danimal1211]

Yes that is indeed another point and a good one you make ... Maybe the tests are expired ... I did suggest one way to test the PO4 one in my other message.

 

OTOH I still think this is a CO2 issue as there is no reason for the pH to be that low with the other parameters of the water.

 

Let's see what comes back based on my message. Thanks for your post danimal1211 ... and I guess you know Josiah T. right :-)

 

I do not know him personally but I did send him about 130 pages of my book and asked him to review them and he is the one who's review I posted a couple of days ago.l

 

Albert

 

I don't know him personally either. I purchased one of their PAR38 bulbs recently and have been in contact with him for a couple weeks. I was just surprised to see his review of the book. When I originally saw you post it I had just finished reading and replying to an email from him. So today when I replied back to him I mentioned seeing the review.

 

 

For Zemuss' low PH there is a way to test if it is due to excessive CO2. I read this in one of Randy Holmes Farley's articles on PH. What you will need is an air pump an airstone, a small container of tank water and your PH test. First test the PH of your tank this will be the baseline. Then aerate some tank water in the small container for an hour and test the PH. Finally take the container outdoors and aerate for another hour then test the PH. If your PH rises after running the airstone indoors then its a gas exchange issue in the tank. If the PH rises after aerating outdoors then you more than likely have an issue with excess CO2 in your house.

[albertthiel]

Yes I do autopsies on a fish if it dies for no known cause which almost never happens. Generally if a fish lasts a month or so, it will live for many years unless it jumps out or I give it away as I do sometimes give fish to public aquariums or other hobbiests if they get to large or beligerant.

I have found that the most fatalities are soon after putting them in the tank and I have found in the majority of the thinner fish like copperbands and long nose butterflies that they seem to be injured durring collection or shipping. The fish starts with a small lump on it's side that gradually enlarges and turns dark. Upon autopsy, I will find internal bleeding as it looks like one of the ribs punctures a vessel which I can't see in such a small animal but I can see the bleeding clearly. The blood has no place to go and putrifies and stinks.

I have seen this quite a few times on thin bodied fish.

I also always take a biopsy on the gills to look for paracites and in my tank I have never found any. My last 12 year old watchman gobies that died seemed perfectly healthy. I looked at their gills and organs and there was no sign of disease or trama so I assume they died of old age as they gradually slowed down and stopped eating.

It is sometimes tough to determine the cause of death just by seeing a dead fish just as it is not easy to see what a human died just by looking at the body. Of course if there is an arrow going through the neck, the diagnosis is easier.

Sometimes dead fish will show a clue, like if it dies with it's mouth agape or gills flared out or red. If it swam around in cicrcles before it died, or gulped air from the surface. I am not sure if fish get heart attacks, kidney stones or gout but if you want to know how it died and it doesn't have that arrow thing, you need to do an autopsy. You first need a book of fish insides so you know what you are looking for but even if you don't know what to look fot you should be able to see the gills and know what paracites look like. Inside the digestive tract there should be no worms and there should be no blood clots in the muscles or blood in the body cavity.

 

 

Speaking of trains

I remember once about 20 years ago I was coming home from work on the Long Island Railroad and I was reading this article in "FAMMA" magazine

(Fresh water and Marine aquarium) I was reading about this guy that had this old tank with these stupidly sounding methods and I remember saying to myself, boy, this guy doesn't have a clue. But as I read, I learned that it was me. I submitted the article like a year before and forgot about it. That was the first thing I published and I was so excited that I looked around to show some of the people I knew, but no one was on the train that I knew. So I waited for the ticket guy to come by and I showed it to him as I proudly pointed out the picture of my tank to him.

He responded by saying "ticket".

 

This copperband died from internal bleeding shortly after I bought him as I discovered diring an autopsy.

You can see that little spot on his spine just to the left of the yellow stribe below the big dot.

 

Thanks Paul for this detailed description of what hobbyists who want to do an autopsy need to look for, and what are signs of what may have caused the death of a fish.

 

And I agree .. an arrow through them would be kind of a problem for them, and would not require a lot of work to determine the cause of death, and no microscope would be needed either :- )

 

Now did you ever send any specimens to Paris Hilton for her to analyze :-)

 

Albert

[nanoreefnate]

Hey Albert,

I asked the guys at my LFS where the NSW comes from and it's source is from Half Moon Bay, CA. They didn't know much else so I will have to go back when the owners get back to the store. What I have noticed is that their water is very cloudy when introduced to my tank. I did not clean the rocks with a turkey baster this time around. The water was crystal clear before the change and after, it was cloudy even 8 hours after the WC. I'm thinking about switching over to ESV's B-ionic Seawater system. Do you have any comment on that particular salt or recommend any specific salts?

 

Additionally, can I get your comment on my current sump setup? Should I change anything or do you see any blaring flaws in the design? Thanks.

 

*Note that the sponges are in the baffles due to the copious/annoying amount of microbubbles my Tunze 9004 is creating. I'm hoping on obtaining a new skimmer soon due to the hardships I've been through with my current one.

DIY 10G Sump by NMB.Photography, on Flickr

[albertthiel]

Albert,

 

I am going to test PH tonight and get back to you.

 

In the meantime can you provide me a link on how to create the CO2 scrubber?

 

Thanks,

TIM S.

 

Sounds good and the DIY info on CO2 scrubbers is on Neuwave's thread and sort of starts here, but you may need to go back and forth in the thread a bit :

 

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/277199-co2-scrubber-ph-goes-up/

 

You can also use the search feature and type in CO2 scrubber and a page will come up with a link to more posts.

 

Hope this helps. Note that there are commercial products on the market e.g. CDX but you can buy the soda lime for a lot less and use a canister as depicted in the link that you draw the air through. If you get soda lime get the color changing one as that will tell you when it is exhausted.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

I don't know him personally either. I purchased one of their PAR38 bulbs recently and have been in contact with him for a couple weeks. I was just surprised to see his review of the book. When I originally saw you post it I had just finished reading and replying to an email from him. So today when I replied back to him I mentioned seeing the review. For Zemuss' low PH there is a way to test if it is due to excessive CO2. I read this in one of Randy Holmes Farley's articles on PH. What you will need is an air pump an airstone, a small container of tank water and your PH test. First test the PH of your tank this will be the baseline. Then aerate some tank water in the small container for an hour and test the PH. Finally take the container outdoors and aerate for another hour then test the PH. If your PH rises after running the airstone indoors then its a gas exchange issue in the tank. If the PH rises after aerating outdoors then you more than likely have an issue with excess CO2 in your house.

 

Thanks for the clarification on the reviewer, and given that we actually do not know him personally, his review is obviously far more objective than if I had given it to someone I know ... as they may not have wanted to say anything negative if there was something they did not like, but his review was entirely positive so that was a pleasure to see.

 

And on your suggestion on the pH test ... yes you are absolutely on the mark ... would be be a good way for ZEMUSS to test whether the issue is with the tank and its air/gas exchange or with too much CO2 inside the house or apartment.

 

Thanks for posting that from Randy's article.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

 

Hey Albert,

I asked the guys at my LFS where the NSW comes from and it's source is from Half Moon Bay, CA. They didn't know much else so I will have to go back when the owners get back to the store. What I have noticed is that their water is very cloudy when introduced to my tank. I did not clean the rocks with a turkey baster this time around. The water was crystal clear before the change and after, it was cloudy even 8 hours after the WC. I'm thinking about switching over to ESV's B-ionic Seawater system. Do you have any comment on that particular salt or recommend any specific salts?

 

Additionally, can I get your comment on my current sump setup? Should I change anything or do you see any blaring flaws in the design? Thanks.

 

*Note that the sponges are in the baffles due to the copious/annoying amount of microbubbles my Tunze 9004 is creating. I'm hoping on obtaining a new skimmer soon due to the hardships I've been through with my current one.

DIY 10G Sump by NMB.Photography, on Flickr

 

Yes you may want to change to making your salt water if what is happening is the case, as that would indicate IMO that something is not quite right with the NSW you are getting, and you may indeed also want to talk to the owners and hear what they have to say.

 

I do not use the salt you mention, and I do not do product reviews, but can tell you what I use: Red Sea Pro. The one you mention may be just fine but I have not used that one, although I have used quite a few others before settling on RSP (good Ca and good Mg levels) and maintains my levels with minimal adjustments needed but remember I also drip KW.

 

And on your sump ... I will save the pic and enlarge it so I can take a better look at it, but one thing I do not see is algae such as Chaeto in there which you may want to consider adding.

 

You may also consider a small layer of live sand in it and some CUC's, and some pods that will do well and multiply as long as you have the Chaeto and maybe some other algae in there to outcompete what may want to try to grow in your tank.

 

Let me look at it in more detail when I enlarge the picture, and if I have any other recommendations I will post them later today.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Speaking of trains

I remember once about 20 years ago I was coming home from work on the Long Island Railroad and I was reading this article in "FAMA" magazine (Fresh water and Marine aquarium) I was reading about this guy that had this old tank with these stupidly sounding methods and I remember saying to myself, boy, this guy doesn't have a clue.

 

But as I read, I learned that it was me. I submitted the article like a year before and forgot about it. That was the first thing I published and I was so excited that I looked around to show some of the people I knew, but no one was on the train that I knew.

 

So I waited for the ticket guy to come by and I showed it to him as I proudly pointed out the picture of my tank to him.

He responded by saying "ticket".

 

Paul ... that is funny ... I guess that as you were reading the article you suddenly started realizing that the guy who wrote it was not that off the wall after all :-)

 

Believe me it happens to all of us, sometimes when I read an article I wrote 15 or so years ago and read on and on the thought comes to me too ... did "I" write that ... not that what I am reading is inaccurate but I just don't recognize that I was the one who wrote it.

 

I guess that the Ticket Guy had no idea what a tank was :-) and all he wanted was your ticket ... !

 

But that is nice ... I am sure that some of the old timers that are around and kept there FAMA's may actually still have a copy of it.

 

I had a lot of articles in FAMA too and you may even have read some of them ... I did not see yours though (unfortunately) and when I moved back from NM to GA I got rid of all the FAMA issues I had as there were hundreds and hundreds and I already had a truck full of all our household items + a trailer on truck that was full too, and had to get rid of a lot of stuff that we could not fit in the trucks. Pity when I think about it now but ... c'est la vie as they say.

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

Albert I still have that copy I think. On the back cover is a picture of my tank. I also don't remember what the article was about.

I probably read your articles as I used to get it in the mail and read al of them.

Now did you ever send any specimens to Paris Hilton for her to analyze :-)

 

Albert

While Miss Hilton most likely has excellent autopsy skills I have yet to send her any specimins to examine. Maybe in the future.

[lohitha]

Albert:

 

Following are my PH readings.

 

Before lights off: 8.4

In the morning: 8.3

 

I have fuge light (back chamber in the BC29) on during the night hours for Chaeto.

[eitallent]

Do you have a lid on your tank? If so, another possibility is it was spooked and tried jumping but slammed into the lid/top of the tank, or even a rock, etc. Just throwing out some ideas as to what might have happened. Sorry for your loss!!!!! I know how devestating it can be.

 

Hi, Gena. As a matter of fact, the first night I had him he was behaving nervously, swimming zig zag, left to right, up and down. I was concerned that he may jump out so I did have the tank covered. When I turned out the lights I heard splashing like he jumped up but did not see him hit anything. However, a bump resulting from all that thrashing may have been a cause for internal damage.

 

Thank you all for all your support. Losing our livestock is the worst part of this hobby, or any hobby that involves animals for that matter.

[eitallent]

Yes I do autopsies on a fish if it dies for no known cause which almost never happens. Generally if a fish lasts a month or so, it will live for many years unless it jumps out or I give it away as I do sometimes give fish to public aquariums or other hobbiests if they get to large or beligerant.

I have found that the most fatalities are soon after putting them in the tank and I have found in the majority of the thinner fish like copperbands and long nose butterflies that they seem to be injured durring collection or shipping. The fish starts with a small lump on it's side that gradually enlarges and turns dark. Upon autopsy, I will find internal bleeding as it looks like one of the ribs punctures a vessel which I can't see in such a small animal but I can see the bleeding clearly. The blood has no place to go and putrifies and stinks.

I have seen this quite a few times on thin bodied fish.

I also always take a biopsy on the gills to look for paracites and in my tank I have never found any. My last 12 year old watchman gobies that died seemed perfectly healthy. I looked at their gills and organs and there was no sign of disease or trama so I assume they died of old age as they gradually slowed down and stopped eating.

It is sometimes tough to determine the cause of death just by seeing a dead fish just as it is not easy to see what a human died just by looking at the body. Of course if there is an arrow going through the neck, the diagnosis is easier.

Sometimes dead fish will show a clue, like if it dies with it's mouth agape or gills flared out or red. If it swam around in cicrcles before it died, or gulped air from the surface. I am not sure if fish get heart attacks, kidney stones or gout but if you want to know how it died and it doesn't have that arrow thing, you need to do an autopsy. You first need a book of fish insides so you know what you are looking for but even if you don't know what to look fot you should be able to see the gills and know what paracites look like. Inside the digestive tract there should be no worms and there should be no blood clots in the muscles or blood in the body cavity.

 

This copperband died from internal bleeding shortly after I bought him as I discovered diring an autopsy.

You can see that little spot on his spine just to the left of the yellow stribe below the big dot.

 

Thanks Paul. That is really interesting. I have done fish dissections, along with frogs, worms, fetal pigs in Anatomy and Physiology class but it never occured to me to do a necropsy on the little wrasse. I will make a mental note of this and probably will look closer at any mystery deaths in the future.

I also have a microscope which I can use to look at gills. Recently I used it to look at Cironalid isopods I found in a new pico I set up. The new pico had liverock from my LFS and boy am I glad I did not put those in with Skipper.

 

http://www.melevsreef.com/id/cirolanid_isopod.html

[Paul.b]

Thanks Paul. That is really interesting. I have done fish dissections, along with frogs, worms, fetal pigs in Anatomy and Physiology class but it never occured to me to do a necropsy on the little wrasse. I will make a mental note of this and probably will look closer at any mystery deaths in the future.

I also have a microscope which I can use to look at gills. Recently I used it to look at Cironalid isopods I found in a new pico I set up. The new pico had liverock from my LFS and boy am I glad I did not put those in with Skipper.

 

http://www.melevsreef.com/id/cirolanid_isopod.html

I did a disection last night. I had flounder and a dozen clams for dinner. The flounder died a noble death as did the clams and I didn't see anything wrong with them.

I also had a few anchovies just because I could.