THE OFFICIAL ASK ALBERT THIEL THREAD

[eitallent]

Hi, Albert I am sad to report that my beautiful sixline wrasse has died. I found it this afternoon. I posted my tank conditions on my thread. Would you please pop overthere and take a look? If you think it important to post here let me know and I can copy and paste what happened to this thread. Thanks.

 

The post is here.

[albertthiel]

Hi, Albert I am sad to report that my beautiful sixline wrasse has died. I found it this afternoon. I posted my tank conditions on my thread. Would you please pop overthere and take a look? If you think it important to post here let me know and I can copy and paste what happened to this thread. Thanks.

 

The post is here.

 

I am sorry to read it eitallent ... and if I remember from reading posts on your thread before that was one of your favorite fish I believe.

 

I will click on the link and read the posts there and if I have anything I think I can contribute I will post it there and here so those who follow this thread can read it as well.

 

Albert

[eitallent]

I am sorry to read it eitallent ... and if I remember from reading posts on your thread before that was one of your favorite fish I believe.

 

I will click on the link and read the posts there and if I have anything I think I can contribute I will post it there and here so those who follow this thread can read it as well.

 

Albert

 

Thank you, Albert. Yes it was by far the most beautiful wrasse I have ever seen, in pictures or in person. The two tiny Blue Neon Gobies are just fine and thankfully so is Skipper.

[albertthiel]

Thank you, Albert. Yes it was by far the most beautiful wrasse I have ever seen, in pictures or in person. The two tiny Blue Neon Gobies are just fine and thankfully so is Skipper.

 

I did quite some looking up in my books on algae and cannot find anything that would indicate that Penicillus probably capitatus would be the cause of the loss of the Six Line Wrasse. I also read a number of online PDF's.

 

If the milky substance that was released when you trimmed was that toxic to kill a fairly sizeable fish then your other fish would have been affected as well IMO and your corals would have reacted negatively.

 

Apparently that did not happen since your other fish are doing fine and you did not report any coral issues.

 

I also read a few online PDF's on Penicillus and other macro coralline algae and could not find any indication that the milky matter released was a toxin rather it is "Laminarin" and "starch", and other such compounds, none of which are toxic.

 

Here is a link to a detailed PDF about research done which gives a lot detail : this is a full article and at the bottom of each page their is an arrow to go to the next page: ....

 

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2989956?seq=1

 

It is an analysis of the enzymatic processes that occur inside the algae and the compounds found in them and what they consist of. Nothing that I read indicates that the milky matter contains toxins or worse that would kill a fish.

 

IMO the loss of the Wrasse is due to another cause. So, when you found it was the body intact? Did you see any worms on or near it? Before it was lost was it eating and breathing normally ... in essence did you see anything wrong with it?

 

I am just as interested in finding out what may have happened as you are as this is not a "delicate" fish that this happened to and so finding out what may have happened will not only give you a sense of understanding but will help others too.

 

Did you keep the corpse? If so are the inside of the gills inflamed?

 

If you can give me some more info maybe we can take this a step further and see if we can figure it out.

 

Albert

[lohitha]

Lohitha :

 

What brand of test kit are you using if I may ask as if you are not using a low range set of test kits it is highly likely that it will show a 0.00-ppm level for Nitrates and Phosphates when in fact the levels are higher ... API is one brand that is ok for general use but does not give you the low range readings needed for Reef tanks.

 

Albert:

Yes, I do use API test kit. I think my next step is to buy a Mg test kit and check the Mg levels. Perhaps it is too low causing Alk/Ca to remain low. I dose Seachem dry Ca and Alk. I can never get Alk to go above 7. My blue tort browned out perhaps due to low alk.

[albertthiel]

Albert:

Yes, I do use API test kit. I think my next step is to buy a Mg test kit and check the Mg levels. Perhaps it is too low causing Alk/Ca to remain low. I dose Seachem dry Ca and Alk. I can never get Alk to go above 7. My blue tort browned out perhaps due to low alk.

 

Yes you can do that or get it tested at an LFS but what I think you really need is the low range Nitrate and Phosphate test kits so we can get some real numbers of what those levels are.

 

An alk of 7 is not bad btw but 8 or 9 would be better. And on the pH can you take a reading tonight before the light go out and then again another one tomorrow morning while the lights are out. I would like to see what the two are and what difference there is between them.

 

Also is there a way you can scrape some of those black spots off and put one or two on a piece of white paper and then take a close up picture of then and post that here, maybe that will give me a better idea of what they are although I think they are as I said dead coralline algae, but if the color is not really black but dark red it could be foraminiferans although I lean more towards the coralline algae ID.

 

Raising the Calcium level should stop those spots from developing but as you say you cannot get it higher than what it now is (although 400 is not all "that" low) but a little higher would be better.

 

Thanks and keep me updated please.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

Fireworm Husbandry ? Really ? Read on though ...

 

© Justice Pierce

 

 

I think the overall attitude about them would change if people kept them long enough (in a separate tank of course) to get to know them. I will give a brief background on them and describe their husbandry requirements for people who would actually like to keep them around.

 

Also discusses various species that are at times found in Nano-Reefs and other Aquariums

 

Link : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/5/short

 

Albert

[zemuss]

Before I can answer Z I need some more info from you:

 

- how large is the tank and how deep is it?

- how strong is the flow in the tank?

- what other corals are you keeping in that tank?

- is the 7.9 pH a morning reading or an evening reading?

- how high above the water is that MH?

 

And maybe if you can post a picture that would be helpful as well. Thanks

 

Albert

 

Here are the answers.

 

 

- how large is the tank and how deep is it? 20 Inches deep

- how strong is the flow in the tank? I have a MP10 on 75% reef crest and about 390 gph of flow from the return

- what other corals are you keeping in that tank? I have two zos, Acans, and some softies.

- is the 7.9 pH a morning reading or an evening reading? During the evening

- how high above the water is that MH? 10 inches.

 

I can take a picture but it will not be good quality.

 

Okay so I have been keeping a log which started yesterday regarding Calcium, MG and KH.

 

Here are the results:

01/23

Calc = 450

KH = 10.5

MG = 1480

 

01/24

Calc = 425

KH = 10.5

MG = 1400

 

So with every 25 point calc swing mg drops 80 points? Could this be the cause of my issues?

 

"Z"

[eitallent]

I did quite some looking up in my books on algae and cannot find anything that would indicate that Penicillus probably capitatus would be the cause of the loss of the Six Line Wrasse. I also read a number of online PDF's.

 

If the milky substance that was released when you trimmed was that toxic to kill a fairly sizeable fish then your other fish would have been affected as well IMO and your corals would have reacted negatively.

 

Apparently that did not happen since your other fish are doing fine and you did not report any coral issues.

 

I also read a few online PDF's on Penicillus and other macro coralline algae and could not find any indication that the milky matter released was a toxin rather it is "Laminarin" and "starch", and other such compounds, none of which are toxic.

 

Here is a link to a detailed PDF about research done which gives a lot detail : this is a full article and at the bottom of each page their is an arrow to go to the next page: ....

 

http://www.jstor.org/stable/2989956?seq=1

 

It is an analysis of the enzymatic processes that occur inside the algae and the compounds found in them and what they consist of. Nothing that I read indicates that the milky matter contains toxins or worse that would kill a fish.

 

IMO the loss of the Wrasse is due to another cause. So, when you found it was the body intact? Did you see any worms on or near it? Before it was lost was it eating and breathing normally ... in essence did you see anything wrong with it?

 

I am just as interested in finding out what may have happened as you are as this is not a "delicate" fish that this happened to and so finding out what may have happened will not only give you a sense of understanding but will help others too.

 

Did you keep the corpse? If so are the inside of the gills inflamed?

 

If you can give me some more info maybe we can take this a step further and see if we can figure it out.

 

Albert

 

Thank you, Albert for your time and your concern. I can always count on you to see things in a logical fashion.

 

He was active and eating yesterday.

 

I examined the body closely. It was in between the Porite rock and the base of the large live rock floating just above the sand. Curiously there were no bristle worms or nassarius snails on it and Karloff who can smell death from any corner of the tank had not found it. Therefore it must have just died. The body was perfect and in full color. The fins were intact. There were no spots or growths on its body or fins. His gill flaps were tight to his body; I did not look inside the gills. I have already discarded the corpse.

 

I am sorry that I cannot report any bizarre behavior. I have no aggressive fish that would have harrassed it.

 

I am relieved to know that you did not find anything regarding the hypothesis of the toxic chemicals released from the macros.

 

I feel like such a failure. Poor little fish.

[albertthiel]

Thank you, Albert for your time and your concern. I can always count on you to see things in a logical fashion.

 

He was active and eating yesterday.

 

I examined the body closely. It was in between the Porite rock and the base of the large live rock floating just above the sand. Curiously there were no bristle worms or nassarius snails on it and Karloff who can smell death from any corner of the tank had not found it. Therefore it must have just died. The body was perfect and in full color. The fins were intact. There were no spots or growths on its body or fins. His gill flaps were tight to his body; I did not look inside the gills. I have already discarded the corpse.

 

I am sorry that I cannot report any bizarre behavior. I have no aggressive fish that would have harrassed it.

 

I am relieved to know that you did not find anything regarding the hypothesis of the toxic chemicals released from the macros.

 

I feel like such a failure. Poor little fish.

 

Well that is somewhat of a mystery indeed. And yes I agree that he must have passed away just before you found him as there was no predation.

 

The life span of those Wrasse is hard to pin down as there are references to as short as 3 years for specimens that were eating like pigs and looked in perfect good health, to 5 years and longer in their natural environment. Do you have any idea how old the Wrasse may have been? How long have you had it? What size was it approximately.

 

I am wondering whether it just died of old age based on being in an aquarium and not in the wild.

 

I did some more checking on the algae issue and there are no references that what they released would have caused the fish to pass away even if he had eaten some of that milky matter, which is unlikely as it is not something fish do as they are not attracted to it based on info I have.

 

Given that there were no signs of anything being wrong with it and that he was eating well we can exclude starvation as a cause as well.

 

I have to assume at this point that it just passed away due to age and not because of any other reason but I will keep looking and if I come across any other information that may explain what happened I will post it here for sure.

 

Again sorry about the loss

 

Albert

[jedimasterben]

Fireworm Husbandry ? Really ? Read on though ...

 

© Justice Pierce

 

 

 

Also discusses various species that are at times found in Nano-Reefs and other Aquariums

 

Link : http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2003/5/short

 

Albert

I have two beautiful fireworms in my tank that I know of. Every broadcast feed I see them come out, and I make sure to give them each a few pellets.

[albertthiel]

Here are the answers.

 

 

- how large is the tank and how deep is it? 20 Inches deep

- how strong is the flow in the tank? I have a MP10 on 75% reef crest and about 390 gph of flow from the return

- what other corals are you keeping in that tank? I have two zos, Acans, and some softies.

- is the 7.9 pH a morning reading or an evening reading? During the evening

- how high above the water is that MH? 10 inches.

 

I can take a picture but it will not be good quality.

 

Okay so I have been keeping a log which started yesterday regarding Calcium, MG and KH.

 

Here are the results:

01/23

Calc = 450

KH = 10.5

MG = 1480

 

01/24

Calc = 425

KH = 10.5

MG = 1400

 

So with every 25 point calc swing mg drops 80 points? Could this be the cause of my issues?

 

"Z"

 

Sorry for the late reply but I was on my Radio Show on Nano Reef Aquariums and it only just finished now.

 

What I think the issues may be are the pH and possibly that your phosphates and nitrates may be too high ... if you measure those then we'll know and on the pH we need to figure out why it is that low as that is too low for SPS corals ... you should try and get it to 8.2 after the lights have been on for a few hours. The 7.9 in the morning is not all that bad, higher would be better but in the morning the pH tends to be lower than it is after photosynthesis has started as that makes the pH go up as the amount of CO2 in the water dimities.

 

You may want to try and blow some fans over the top of water to get more oxygen exchange and create more turbulence at the top by perhaps directing the flow of a power head towards the top. Also if the tank is in a room where the air is high in CO2 that will get into the water and depress the pH.

 

With a KH of > 10 I would not add any buffers to try to raise the pH as you will end up with an even higher dKH and it will end up being too high.

 

I believe excess CO2 is the issue that is causing your low pH.

 

BTW are you using a skimmer? If so that will also introduce more CO2 if the air in the room where the tank is is high in it. Opening a door or a window and letting outside air in for a while will help with that as well but I do not know if that is possible due to the outside temperature ...

 

And the other reason as I said that you may not have any success with SPS may be due to too high PO4, so if you get a low range test kit pls measure the level and let me know. Thanks.

 

On the Calcium and Magnesium : as long as you do water changes and as long as you keep your calcium level up you should be fine. The Mg level at 1400 is in the right range. Calcium at 425 is OK as well. BTW how do you maintain your calcium level? Do you add Kalkwasser or is it another method ...

 

I know ... a lot of questions but by getting more info I can hopefully help you in getting all parameters under control.

 

If need be and you use a skimmer (which you should IMO) and CO2 in the room is an issue then you may need to use a CO2 scrubber and if that is needed I will explain how to do so once I get your responses to the questions in this post

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

I have two beautiful fireworms in my tank that I know of. Every broadcast feed I see them come out, and I make sure to give them each a few pellets.

 

Well as long as they do not bother anything and are not the nasty ones mentioned in the article then you are ok I guess .. are they nicely colored ones? Can we see some pictures maybe when you manage to take some when they are out ? That would be super

 

I personally think that some of them look really appealing but the danger is always that they may turn on you and so some damage but apparently in your case that has not happened. +1

 

A;bert

[albertthiel]

Albert it would make no sense for me to sterilize my water then throw in mud and amphipods from the Sound.

 

I am saving the pictures you post so that is someone asks about them again I can just post them Paul.

 

I have the Feeder and this one and also the ones of you in the Pond with your nice dinner jacket on ...

 

Albert

[gena]

 

Thank you, Albert for your time and your concern. I can always count on you to see things in a logical fashion.

 

He was active and eating yesterday.

 

I examined the body closely. It was in between the Porite rock and the base of the large live rock floating just above the sand. Curiously there were no bristle worms or nassarius snails on it and Karloff who can smell death from any corner of the tank had not found it. Therefore it must have just died. The body was perfect and in full color. The fins were intact. There were no spots or growths on its body or fins. His gill flaps were tight to his body; I did not look inside the gills. I have already discarded the corpse.

 

I am sorry that I cannot report any bizarre behavior. I have no aggressive fish that would have harrassed it.

 

I am relieved to know that you did not find anything regarding the hypothesis of the toxic chemicals released from the macros.

 

I feel like such a failure. Poor little fish.

Do you have a lid on your tank? If so, another possibility is it was spooked and tried jumping but slammed into the lid/top of the tank, or even a rock, etc. Just throwing out some ideas as to what might have happened. Sorry for your loss!!!!! I know how devestating it can be.

[albertthiel]

Do you have a lid on your tank? If so, another possibility is it was spooked and tried jumping but slammed into the lid/top of the tank, or even a rock, etc. Just throwing out some ideas as to what might have happened. Sorry for your loss!!!!! I know how devestating it can be.

 

Yes that is indeed another possibility Gena and eitallent ... I did not think of that one, thanks for bringing that up as that could be a reason too.

 

Albert

[gena]

 

Yes that is indeed another possibility Gena and eitallent ... I did not think of that one, thanks for bringing that up as that could be a reason too.

 

Albert

I don't think she had the fish very long. Albert...what do you think about the possibilty of cyanide poisoning?

[atoll]

Fish like any other animal will die for all manner of reasons but unlike most animals it is often difficult to know just why. Sometimes we get clues other times fish die for no apparent reason they just do. There may or may not be external signs on the body. How many would do a postmortem on a small fish and if they did would they know what they are looking for.

 

I would guess fish can have heart attacks seeing they have a heart. They also have livers and other body organs that can stop functioning as in old age or for some other reason. Fish can catch disease which might not be noticeable to the aquarist. What I am trying to get at is that these things happen as they do in human life the difference is with us humans 99% of the time the cause is known. Often with fish the cause is never determined simply due to the fact we don't have the knowledge and the equipment to ascertain the cause of death.

 

I hate it when one of my fish dies or even disappears never to be seen again. Not knowing why is frustrating and only second to the fact I have lost that fish. Never good to loose any fish even worse when we know not why and if we could have been responsible for its death. These things happen and we will loose fish for whatever reason. Sometimes we will know the cause sometimes not but all animals die of that there can be no question.

 

Les.

[albertthiel]

I don't think she had the fish very long. Albert...what do you think about the possibilty of cyanide poisoning?

 

IMO that does not seem to be the reason in this case as the fish did not display any of the types of behavior generally associated with cyanide poisoning such as listlessness, loss of motor skills and difficulty in swimming and keeping itself in upright position and/or coping with the water flow, not eating or eating less than was the case, swimming erratically and even bumping into things including rock and tank glass, and more. This fish apparently did not show any of these signs, but since it was probably a wild-caught fish, as there are no positive reports that I know of that confirm that they have been bred in captivity successfully, one never knows of course.

 

However there would have been "some" signs that the fish was not doing well, and eitallent would have noticed them I think. She did not report any so even though it could be, IMO it does not seem like it, but Gena, yes, it certainly needs to be considered as a possible cause.

 

Unfortunately as we all know things happen in aquariums for which we have no explanation at times and things happen that we cannot do anything about. That is very unfortunate especially if the loss of a fish is involved, but I think that in this case we are not going to figure out what really went on.

 

I am still looking into the issue that eitallent reported with the Algae (Penicillus capitatus, I believe it was) but, so far, and as I stated yesterday, I was not able to associate what happened with the loss of the wrasse.

 

All I can say is that I empathize with eitallent for the loss. However I am not sure we'll be able to find a reason for that loss.

 

Albert

[Paul.b]

How many would do a postmortem on a small fish and if they did would they know what they are looking for.

the cause of death.



Les.

 

 

I would. But I am wierd. Fish rarely die of old age in a tank because they can live for many years. I have some 19 year olds now and I have had a few that made 18 but even those dies in an accident. I would imagine a wrasse should live at least ten years but I am not sure.

If I don't know the cause I do an autopsy, there is usually something you can find in the organs or gills but not always because the fish is so small.

My last copperband that I had die died from internal bleeding most likely from when he was collected as I did't have him long. I find that problem with many skinny fish but not in a 6 line wrasse. My last 6 line died from I think eating to much. I had flatworms in the tank and he got so fat, he couldn't even swim. I didn't autopsy him because the bristle worms did it before I did.

[albertthiel]

Fish like any other animal will die for all manner of reasons but unlike most animals it is often difficult to know just why. Sometimes we get clues other times fish die for no apparent reason they just do. There may or may not be external signs on the body. How many would do a postmortem on a small fish and if they did would they know what they are looking for.

 

I would guess fish can have heart attacks seeing they have a heart. They also have livers and other body organs that can stop functioning as in old age or for some other reason. Fish can catch disease which might not be noticeable to the aquarist. What I am trying to get at is that these things happen as they do in human life the difference is with us humans 99% of the time the cause is known. Often with fish the cause is never determined simply due to the fact we don't have the knowledge and the equipment to ascertain the cause of death.

 

I hate it when one of my fish dies or even disappears never to be seen again. Not knowing why is frustrating and only second to the fact I have lost that fish. Never good to loose any fish even worse when we know not why and if we could have been responsible for its death. These things happen and we will loose fish for whatever reason. Sometimes we will know the cause sometimes not but all animals die of that there can be no question.

 

Les.

 

Very true, and very unfortunate indeed Les, but as I said in another message (to Gena) so much can go on and happen in our reefs and in our aquariums in general, things we do not have an explanation for that sometimes we do indeed have to accept the facts, even if we cannot find an explanation for it and "sudden death syndrome" for SDS is certainly one of them.

 

Research will reveal that a lot of hobbyists have lost fish for totally unexplained reasons, and the ones that bring up are certainly part of it and, although we may find it hard to accept the loss of a fish, any fish for that matter, it is one of those things that, unfortunately, happens and will continue to happen.

 

All the reasons you mention certainly can apply and often there is nothing we can do because by the time the signs of it become visible it may be too late to intervene or the fish may had already died, an as you say we are not equipped to diagnose what the cause or cause for the loss may have been.

 

It is always a pity to lose a fish, especially if we have had it for a long time, but just as with other animals and pets we may keep I think that mentally preparing ourselves for the fact that they will not be with us forever is good practice.

 

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

Albert

[albertthiel]

How many would do a postmortem on a small fish and if they did would they know what they are looking for.

the cause of death.

Les.

 

Very true indeed .. few do so and even if they did and had the necessary equipment can they actually determine what the cause really is or was, ... and is it limited to one or is it a combination of several, one leading to another and ultimately to the loss of the fish.

 

Albert

[atoll]

Am on a train hooking up with some old friends to share a few beers as we do every month. As for cause of death naturally but how many would dissect a fish to find the obvious. Yes some will but very few. On another note I now have my period pump working and connected to my kalk Stirrer via my ATU

and working well. Have a nice day yall.

[danimal1211]

Here are the answers. - how large is the tank and how deep is it? 20 Inches deep- how strong is the flow in the tank? I have a MP10 on 75% reef crest and about 390 gph of flow from the return- what other corals are you keeping in that tank? I have two zos, Acans, and some softies.- is the 7.9 pH a morning reading or an evening reading? During the evening- how high above the water is that MH? 10 inches. I can take a picture but it will not be good quality. Okay so I have been keeping a log which started yesterday regarding Calcium, MG and KH. Here are the results:01/23 Calc = 450KH = 10.5MG = 1480 01/24Calc = 425KH = 10.5MG = 1400 So with every 25 point calc swing mg drops 80 points? Could this be the cause of my issues? "Z"

 

With that big of a change I would suspect the tests rather than that's your daily usage. Especially with the difference in Mag. It just doesn't drop that low in one day.

[albertthiel]

Am on a train hooking up with some old friends to share a few beers as we do every month. As for cause of death naturally but how many would dissect a fish to find the obvious. Yes some will but very few. On another note I now have my period pump working and connected to my kalk Stirrer via my ATU and working well. Have a nice day yall.

 

Have a great and enjoyable day Les ... Glad to read that your peristaltic pump and the device are now working fine and as you wanted it to work.

 

And very true, expect for a few who have the knowledge and the equipment needed, if it indeed going to be very difficult to establish what the true cause of death is. One has to know what to look for and even then often only assumptions can be made and they may not be the real ones as it could be a combination of several.

 

It is a pity that the fish passed away, but I think in this case, and in many others finding the real reason is just about impossible unfortunately.

 

On another note : today is major maintenance day on my tank, so I'll be busy with that for a while as the tank needs a good clean up, actually more than just a basic one as it is time for compound changes, and blowing off the rocks etc ... and a water change and testing all parameters and adjusting them if needed. Need to clean off a lot of coralline algae too.

 

Oh and some good news: my red mushroom threw off 3 babies I just noticed ... looks like between the one Yuma and now the Mushroom I suddenly have more a few more life forms in the tank.

 

Albert