Lowest cost way to eliminate green hair, bubble, turf and slime algae

[Pickle010]

What would be the recommended size (scrubber and bulbs) for a 500 gallon heavily stocked system? I'm looking at a traditional style hanging scrubber and not an upflow scrubber. Thanks.

[Floyd R Turbo]

It all depends on feeding, tank size is really not a factor (except that you want to have decent turnover across the screen). So the question is how much do you feed each day?

[Pickle010]

It all depends on feeding, tank size is really not a factor (except that you want to have decent turnover across the screen). So the question is how much do you feed each day?

 

 

Let's say 3000 + clown fish being fed 3 to 4 times a day. It's for a grow out system.

[Floyd R Turbo]

3000 what?

[Pickle010]

3000 what?

 

3000 + clown fish

 

Just clowns - 3000 to 5000 at the most.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Oh, I meant how much food are you feeding per day, not how many fish. Again, the only pertinent nutrient input to the system is food. So if you had to estimate it, how many cubes of food per day, or equivalent thereof, are you feeding?

[gabe3eb]

This is the most bizarre thread I have read on here in a long time.

 

I don't plan to add one any time soon, partially because I don't think they are necessary in a tank that gets 100% water changes over the course of 6-8 weeks. But I'm definitely interested in knowing more about them.

 

That being said, I respect Brandon's opinions and Calvin413, who is one of the most talented reefers I know, runs one in a setup that is one of the cleanest looking systems out there.

 

Also, you can't claim this wasn't a coordinated move when all of the sudden 4-5 new folks show up in the same thread ready to defend the concept to everyone.

 

HD nailed it when he mentioned the "why" aspect of these for nanos. 99.9% of the tanks we see on this forum don't run a turf scrubber. Some of the tanks suck, some are amazing. Even the "cleaner" looking recent model you posted would take quiet a bit of time for the average person here to put together and still take up enough real estate to be very noticeable. That's saying nothing about the fact that you are putting a microwaveable meal tray into a small display.

 

We didn't go looking for an ATS solution, but all of you came here talking about them. The why is the central point to this thing. I am sincerely listening. I want to know why I should even consider one in the 34g Solana All-in-One I am about to set-up. I would also be interested in hearing about how it could implemented reasonably without being an eye-sore.

[Tyron]

Isn't that kind of like asking why the first person came up with a skimmer? Or why someone designed a canister type filter. Why because it's the evolution of the beast. To give people options. I'm running a hob type uas on my ten gallon nano. So what's the difference then having it hold carbon and gfo, it's still hanging on the back. Only took me a few minutes to get it up and running.

[SantaMonica]

how is it postulated that ATS systems remove red brush by essentially binding the same nutrient issues?

 

How? All algae eat N and P, so whichever algae touches it first, and has stronger photosynthesis, gets the nutrients and lives.

 

I don't think they are necessary in a tank that gets 100% water changes over the course of 6-8 weeks

 

Keep in mind that water changes remove the food particles that corals eat.

 

I want to know why I should even consider one in the 34g Solana All-in-One I am about to set-up.

 

Elimination of water changes, nitrate, phosphate, and nuisance algae. Plus much more food for corals and small fish, and the ability to feed even more beyond that.

 

I would also be interested in hearing about how it could implemented reasonably without being an eye-sore.

 

You could design something yourself. Or you could wait for future monthly designs to be posted, some of which will be almost invisible

 

What would be the recommended size (scrubber and bulbs) for a 500 gallon heavily stocked system? I'm looking at a traditional style hanging scrubber and not an upflow scrubber.

 

So far, feeding guidelines are the same for UAS and waterfall:

 

Scrubbers are now sized according to feeding. Nutrients "in" (feeding) must equal nutrients "out" (scrubber growth), no matter how many gallons you have. So...

 

An example VERTICAL waterfall screen size is 3 X 4 inches = 12 square inches of screen (7.5 X 10 cm = 75 sq cm) with a total of 12 real watts (not equivalent) of fluorescent light for 18 hours a day. If all 12 watts are on one side, it is a 1-sided screen. If 6 watts are on each side, it is a 2-sided screen, but the total is still 12 watts for 18 hours a day. This screen size and wattage should be able to handle the following amounts of daily feeding:

 

1 frozen cube per day (2-sided screen), or

1/2 frozen cube per day (1-sided screen), or

10 pinches of flake food per day (2-sided screen), or

5 pinches of flake food per day (1-sided screen), or

10 square inches (60 sq cm) of nori per day (2-sided screen), or

5 square inches (30 sq cm) of nori per day (1-sided screen), or

0.1 dry ounce (2.8 grams) of pellet food per day (2-sided screen), or

0.05 dry ounce (1.4 grams) of pellet food per day (1-sided screen)

[Reef Casa]

water changes and a tooth brush

[gabe3eb]

Isn't that kind of like asking why the first person came up with a skimmer? Or why someone designed a canister type filter. Why because it's the evolution of the beast.

 

It's nothing like asking that. Right now, on July 12th, the year of our lord 2012, probably 99%+ of the best tanks out there run skimmers. Less than 1% run turf scrubbers. ATS aren't new either. So we aren't at the beginning of a new trend towards ATS.

 

SM did a good job of at least saying its an "either/or" scenario with the ATS vs Skimmer/Water Changes and that the ATS option will allow you to feed more. However, the only ATS tanks that I have seen that look good are also skimming and doing water changes so I'm still scratching my head.

 

If I'm dipping everything that comes in my tank (and adding an ATS won't stop that) and skimming and doing water changes anyway, I don't see the upside to adding one. It's not replacing anything I would be doing already. If I stop doing water changes, then I will have to start dosing and monitoring alk/cal/mag, etc etc.

 

For me, the only reason to consider running one is if it gave me better results than my current maintenance for the issues he listed.

 

Also, I asure you SM, I couldn't come up with a good looking or functioning design myself lol.

[1.0reef]

Is anyone willing to ban themselves so this thread can be closed? I read the first 5 pages and I have a huge headache, after 5 of the haze pages.

[Floyd R Turbo]

Gabe, I don't want to assume anything and I don't know if you have been closely following the evolution of the algae scrubber, but I have (it was brand new to me as of early 2010) and in that short time it has evolved quite a bit. I think everyone can agree that algae scrubbers are not a new concept. What not everyone is aware of it exactly what has been learned over the last 4 years or so, and how much this has drastically changed the base model/conditions/concepts upon which most people assume the algae scrubber is based upon. This is in large respect to awareness - if you don't care about algae scrubbers, why would you know a lot about recent discoveries.

 

If I listed them all in detail, this post would be very long. So here are just a few of the things that have changed, so drastically, over the past couple years:

 

- shifting from horizontal screen to vertical screen, lit on both sides

- Use of high-intensity light in the plant-growth spectrum: CFL, T5HO and LED (progressing in that order)

- proximity of light source to screen

- intensity of light, and photoperiod associated with that intensity level

- screen material

- screen roughness

- water flow rate

- screen cleaning and maintenance methods

- screen sized (based on feeding volume vs tank volume)

 

..and there are more coming. Honestly, I believe that the hobby is on track for a new trend toward modern algae scrubbers.

[brandon429]

Why are they purported to remove red brush algae/bryopsis (notorious low nutrient thrivers) better than gfo/biopellet systems?

 

I can see by sm's pics they can, just wondering how they work better than gfo.

 

Gfo is notorious for overstripping the water and bleaching when used in excess, I would imagine algae/natural systems are less prone to that as the reef life is more adapted to algae than they are to gfo...

[Floyd R Turbo]

If a scrubber is built and maintained right, it can keep N and P very low on a consistent enough basis to out-compete cyano and bryopsis. The latter however can be notoriously difficult and either requires a very well built unit, or the additional use of GFO, but only a very small amount. This is because in some cases, nitrate can be reduced by other naturally occuring methods (sand bed, LR) and this will cause N to go to zero and limit the absorption of P, because algae absorbs N and P according to the redfield ratio. So one of the most common problems with scrubbers is nitrate limitation resulting in P not reducing as effectively. I have experienced this (N limitation, but no algae problems) but switch to a better scrubber and it appears to have taken care of the issue, but time will tell.

[SantaMonica]

Why are they purported to remove red brush algae/bryopsis (notorious low nutrient thrivers) better than gfo/biopellet systems?

 

They aren't. Lots of GFO or pellets will kill a scrubber and anything else with chlorophyll.

[brandon429]

must have seen 100+ 'bleached' threads by now. we see tradeoff infestations as well, cyano appears in gfo use many times.

 

 

Some tanks can't beat red brush algae and bryopsis with great water params it seems where the substrate is the primary sink for phosphates. ATS grab what's liberated into the water column

 

I can understand ATS being a great preventer of substrate sinking when set up before the transit through the water column however, before becoming part of rock structure, how can they address algae growth fueled from below

 

 

with substrate binding/liberation of phosphate would you say ATS might have a weakness?

 

knowing the limitations also validates a design IMO against haters.

 

Maybe there is some factor in which an ATS deals with non transitory nutrients yet to be seen. I'm picturing the interface on the Marco rock surface where the algal holdfasts are rooted right into rock interstices. Immediate acidification by the holdfasts and localized bacterial digestion of both floc and rock surface yields phosphate directly into the local vicinity of uptake cells for the algae. To me this method makes water column scrubbing a tough candidate, unless secondary affect is also present

 

Its very possible hormones from the plants found in solution do something, marine plants and chemical cueing go hand in hand

[KerryL.]

Here's one, 10 weeks...

 

Skimmers remove food particles that corals eat. So not really needed for reefs.

My 10G had this kind of a turn around but it was a longer green hair algae.

[x3thelast]

I need to post up my before and after pics of treating my 4 gal with h2o2. My rocks are honestly algae free and my glass stays cleaner longer. I have seen no effects on my corals either. Nor fish or inverts.

[KerryL.]

I have seen many tanks treated with peroxide and have spot treated mine in the past. It works very well but its not a permanent solutions as I have had to do it to a few spots in the past. It works great for when you buy frags just give the plug a dip and bye-bye algae. With the scrubber it seems to be a very permanent solution so far and to boot it knocks the nutrients in the butt!!!!

[SantaMonica]

Another thing about peroxide or anything that kills algae... it will kill the periphyton on the rocks, which is what feeds the pods that feed mandarins.

[brandon429]

SM that is dose dependent

 

there are lots of theoretical kills peroxide is supposed to run but we see it is not a blanket prediction

 

in the early days of peroxide speculation it was supposed to be the filter bed...no so actually at any practical dose. At least to the degree we can test for ammonia and nitrite, but some are still sure its lethal even as a diluted boost in systemic oxygen so they hold firm we are losing things that can't be physically measured.

 

I have tons of pods...if they are missing the live rock algae I never wanted I guess they are eating the food I feed?

[SantaMonica]

Some UAS builds...

 

"Acorral" on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

"Badfish" on the RC site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Cmaxtian" on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

"Deneed4spd" onthe TCMAS site:

 

 

 

 

"Ewerd" on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

"Fishuntbike" on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

"FloydRturbo" on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

"Hugbert" on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

"Jaz” on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Kalgra” on the R2R site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

“KelliZackMOMon” on the LR site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

“MorganAtlanta” on the scrubber site;

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Octavia-vrs” on the UR site:

 

[SantaMonica]

“Othello” on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

“OwenReefin” on the PNWMAS site:

 

 

 

 

 

“Pecker115” on the UR site:

 

 

 

 

 

"Cermet" on the AC site:

 

 

 

 

“Promazine” on the UR site:

 

 

 

 

 

"Bobba" on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Reefnjunkie” on the PNWMAS site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

“RkyRickstr” on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Ruddybop” on the MFK site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Smann” on the PNWMAS site:

 

 

 

 

“Strayrex” on the UR site:

 

 

 

 

 

“Swhite” on the scrubber site:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

“Tonymar” on the scrubber site:

 

 

[SantaMonica]