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Sexy Breeding -- Live nudes!

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pismo_reefer

I don't know whether to call you a genius, or insane....

 

 

I'll be watching to see where this madness end's up. ;)

Edited by pismo_reefer

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pj86
Still here. I answered Pj in one of his threads.

 

It seems pretty clear I'm gonna need to try a few changes. Maybe add some more liverock to the breeder and pick up a few more shrimp. Maybe try rotating a few of them between the breeder and the display tank to see whether it's either an environmental issue in the breeder or a pairing issue for the shrimp. Don't know if I'll do any of it before the holidays tho, sorry.

 

 

One thing I did do was add a 5:3:2 ratio mixture of phytofeast : rotifeast : oyster feast to the tank. About a few hours later they were mating. Don't know if this initiated spawning or just a coincidence.

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TheUnfocusedOne
Still here. I answered Pj in one of his threads.

 

It seems pretty clear I'm gonna need to try a few changes. Maybe add some more liverock to the breeder and pick up a few more shrimp. Maybe try rotating a few of them between the breeder and the display tank to see whether it's either an environmental issue in the breeder or a pairing issue for the shrimp. Don't know if I'll do any of it before the holidays tho, sorry.

 

No need to be sorry, just checking in. This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a while; I'm anxious to see some success. I'm sure you'll figure out the problem.

 

Best of luck!

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Whys

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I don't know whether to call you a genius, or insane....

 

 

I'll be watching to see where this madness end's up. ;)

 

The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. ;)

 

"Sanity" is defined by our shared notions of reality. But given the complete lack of an ontological certainty, such shared notions are no more than "popular" in origin. For example, you probably believe in an absolute reality as the source of all our experiences. I don't believe that. After all, it's an assumption.

 

Moving on. :)

 

Link

One thing I did do was add a 5:3:2 ratio mixture of phytofeast : rotifeast : oyster feast to the tank. About a few hours later they were mating. Don't know if this initiated spawning or just a coincidence.

 

That sounds like really good advice. It's time I started playing with cultures anyway. Which would be easier to start with, phyto or rotifers? And what's oyster feast?

 

Link

No need to be sorry, just checking in. This is one of the most interesting threads I've read in a while; I'm anxious to see some success. I'm sure you'll figure out the problem.

 

Best of luck!

 

Thanks. :)

 

Truth is, there are a number of things I could and should try. Once the holidays have past, I will try them all in earnest.

 

  • More shrimp.
  • More liverock.
  • More plankton.
  • Display tank rotations.
  • Soft corals for the breeder.

Anything to add?

 

A few updates...

 

Overloading the breeder with display tank water was not a good idea. The breeder has less filtration capacity and was being overwhelmed, resulting in a lot of algae. I'll aim for a couple quarts a week instead.

 

Running the flatworm culture dish skimmerless was also not a good idea. A Hydor Koralia Nano was added a few weeks ago and is working well. Point of note: even a small ammonia cycle will completely wipe out convolutriloba retrogemma. Can't help but wonder if FWE isn't just diluted ammonia.

 

Is it possible 400w is too much light for flatworms? Results so far have suggested it, but not conclusively.

 

Anyway, that's that for now. Happy holidays to all and thank you for taking part in my reality! :)

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mndfreeze

screw more shrimp, BRING ON THE BLUE VELVETS. That's why I'm really here. :D

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Whys

I appreciate your enthusiasm, but the shrimp are an essential proof-of-concept. Their current lack of breeding indicates something is still missing, or not yet in balance with the environment. Given that Blue Velvets are much more difficult to obtain, near impossible to keep fed, and don't live for very long, I think it's better I experiment with the shrimp for now. :)

 

The kreisel is well cycled and I've been getting some practice cleaning it. The Chaeto really does help keep the film algae down. The flatworm culture dish isn't ready yet and still needs a few things before it is. Can really use some practice cultivating plankton in the mean time. So basically, there is plenty for me to do right now while I progressively inch my way to the grand finale.

 

Can growing plankton be made interesting? Hmm... :)

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mndfreeze

Yes, but its my job to come in your thread every few pages and harrass you more to make sure you stay on target with the heavy ADHD and slight ####zophrenia you exhibit symptoms from. :D

 

I can help you aquire blue velvets, roughly 20 a pop (yes, kind of pricey) but maybe cheaper if a certain number are purchased. I've loved em since I started this hobby and got my first flatworm. Took me months to find em, but now I have sources!

 

Well, I might be a bit biased too, since I was a defender champion of sexy shrimp until they started eating all my LPS after I swore how perfectly behaved mine were. ;/ Just ignore I said that last part and focus on the awesomeness of blue velvets and hurry F up!

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metrokat

fun thread. amazing DIY.

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TheUnfocusedOne

I get excited every time I see this thread pop up.

 

:naughtydance:

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huskerduck

In my 20+ years of SW, I've known some people that have a lot of fun with their systems but..........

 

You sir, seem to be enjoying yourself beyond any rationality and its glorious. I need an Sec8nds and coke to celebrate this thread full of win

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Whys

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Yes, but its my job to come in your thread every few pages and harrass you more to make sure you stay on target with the heavy ADHD and slight ####zophrenia you exhibit symptoms from. :D

 

I can help you aquire blue velvets, roughly 20 a pop (yes, kind of pricey) but maybe cheaper if a certain number are purchased. I've loved em since I started this hobby and got my first flatworm. Took me months to find em, but now I have sources!

 

Well, I might be a bit biased too, since I was a defender champion of sexy shrimp until they started eating all my LPS after I swore how perfectly behaved mine were. ;/ Just ignore I said that last part and focus on the awesomeness of blue velvets and hurry F up!

 

Sounds reasonable. Glad to have you in my corner. :)

 

Link

fun thread. amazing DIY.

 

Link

I get excited every time I see this thread pop up.

 

:naughtydance:

 

Link

In my 20+ years of SW, I've known some people that have a lot of fun with their systems but..........

 

You sir, seem to be enjoying yourself beyond any rationality and its glorious. I need an Sec8nds and coke to celebrate this thread full of win

 

Thanks. :)

 

--------

 

Breeder Update...

 

I've added 1 medium female, 1 small female, and 2 medium males, for a total of:

5 females & 2 males.

 

I've also added an auto-top-off.

 

breeder_ato.jpg

 

And the RO/DI is connected directly to tap.

 

breeder_ato_on_tap.jpg

 

Not only has this eliminated salinity fluctuations, but now that evap isn't a concern, I can safely displace water with more live rock.

 

When I added the new shrimp, I noticed the older shrimp had lost some color. This is my first nano tank, and I think I've just been too stingy with feeding. Now that the breeder has matured, I'll try more feedings.

 

Kreisel Update...

 

Adding the Chaeto to the HOB has had the intended impact of keeping the inner drum largely clean of film algae. I dipped the Chaeto in CoralRx at 4x-dosage and 2x-duration. I have since detected a single Vermetid snail in the HOB.

 

kreisel_hob.jpg

 

Flatworm Culture...

 

I've added a nice 20 pound boulder of Fiji live rock to keep parameters balanced.

 

flatworm_dish.jpg

 

It needed it. Red Planaria are surprisingly sensitive.

 

Drum Roll...

 

I'm not going to jink it this time, so....

 

preggers2.jpg

 

Happy dance! :D

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Evanski9

Hell yes! Yes yes yes best day of my life yes!!! omgomgomg:happydance:omgomgomg:happydance:omgomgomg:happydance:omgomgomg:happydance: :happydance: omgomgomg

 

 

 

I've been watching this the whole time and I'm so happy

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Whys

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Hell yes! Yes yes yes best day of my life yes!!! omgomgomg:happydance:omgomgomg:happydance:omgomgomg:happydance:omgomgomg:happydance: :happydance: omgomgomg

 

 

 

I've been watching this the whole time and I'm so happy

 

 

Last night I figured I had a few days to clean out the kreisel drum and brush up on larva feeding. So imagine my disappointment when upon checking the breeder, the female no longer looked pregnant. What the heck? Is she stuffing her bra? Did she gorge herself and just looked fat? Was it gas? *Sigh*...

 

Aww man... detritus collecting on the surface again... --hey, that bit moved!

 

I don't know why, but most of the larvae were stuck to the water surface. Still wiggling tho, so I collected as many as I could find. There are now somewhere between 8 and a dozen in the kreisel. Much too small to photograph, so I sacrificed one for science.

 

Thor Ambionensis Larvae

thor_ambionensis_larvae.jpg

 

Oh so sexy!

 

So umm... anybody know how to care for these things? :D

 

I honestly haven't a clue, but I'm sure I'll figure it out. Hey Pj, How long before they starve?

 

 

 

Oh yeah, and one more thing...

BOOM SHAKA LAKA LAKA BOOM SHAKA LAKA !!!

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pj86

Congrats, they wont starve. It took me about a day and half to begin feeding mine because I didn't have a culture of brine shrimp ready. They will immediately accept the brine shrimp.

 

Cool micro photo of the larvae

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Whys

I found more larvae in the sump and now have a total somewhere close to 20 in the kriesel. I know they're alive because I can see their little wannabe legs shimmering as they try to swim.

 

Link

Start with copepods and/or BBS, from what I've heard. Good luck!

 

Pj is right, btw. These larvae are really quite resilient. I've been fairly abusive in my first collecting of them, with no obvious injuries or deaths.

 

Link

Congrats, they wont starve. It took me about a day and half to begin feeding mine because I didn't have a culture of brine shrimp ready. They will immediately accept the brine shrimp.

 

Cool micro photo of the larvae

 

Oh... they could... :/

 

All I had on hand was my little 6g bottle of eggs that I've been meaning to do a practice run with. Well I never got around to that, and to make matters worse, a huge load of snow dump on us over the last few nights and the roads aren't all plowed yet. So I ordered a big can of eggs online, but they won't arrive until Tuesday.

 

In the mean time, I've had my fingers crossed with the few eggs I have. I probably didn't decapsulate long enough and I know I've been hatching at low temp (it gets cold in my basement at night), so it took an extra day for the eggs to hatch. This morning I was relieved to see they had finally hatched and began feeding in earnest.

 

I don't know how many to put in there. I must have put in somewhere close to 1000. Little bits of black pepper everywhere. :]

 

I didn't see the act of capture, but I did definitely see a few of the larvae holding a BBS with its legs, presumably devouring it.

 

So it seems the only thing standing between me and BVN now, is my mastery of sea monkeys. :D

 

How many sea monkeys, how often?

Edited by Whys

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TheUnfocusedOne

Have you checked out Calvin's thread? He's breeding sexies with great success. Might be worth looking into.

 

Seeing this thread pop up made my day btw :happy:

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Whys

Yeah, I'm being intentionally lazy. Hey, it's been nearly a year now and I've finally hit a real mile stone. But good advice, just missing the link: Calvin415's Sexy Shrimp Breeding Adventure

Edited by Whys

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MeanGreenEyes

preggers.jpg

 

"As luck would have it, she put her tail end right up against the front glass, so I got out my 30x Micronta hand-held microscope and managed to get a good focus. Obviously, I can't take photos with my Micronta, so I've provided an artistic rendering of what I saw."

I'm totally stoked. :)

 

 

^^^^Invert porn! You perv...lol.

 

Read the whole thread...very interesting. Following this...you will definitely be crowned evil genius when (not if) you successfully pull this off. Good luck... B)

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Whys

Link

preggers.jpg

 

"As luck would have it, she put her tail end right up against the front glass, so I got out my 30x Micronta hand-held microscope and managed to get a good focus. Obviously, I can't take photos with my Micronta, so I've provided an artistic rendering of what I saw."

I'm totally stoked. :)

 

 

^^^^Invert porn! You perv...lol.

 

Read the whole thread...very interesting. Following this...you will definitely be crowned evil genius when (not if) you successfully pull this off. Good luck... B)

 

♪ dunt duh-DUH! ♫

imperial!.jpg

 

 

Last night I counted 11 larvae still in the kreisel. Checked it this morning and could only find 5. The problem is likely starvation, as I haven't had the brine shrimp eggs for proper feeding density. The remaining larvae do appear a little larger and more shrimp like in shape, but no eye stalks yet that I can see.

 

Regarding feeding density, I found the following information posted on marinebreeder.org

 

Link

I always stick to around 5 bbs/mL. Usually not more than 7 bbs/ml.

 

How does one measure the density of bbs/mL?

 

Draw a 1mL water sample using a syringe and count the no. of bbs in it. Do this 3 times and get the average.

 

My concentration has been closer to 3 or 2 BBS/mL and I noticed the BBS are growing up, likely proving a greater challenge to catch and eat. But I won't have more brine shrimp eggs for a few more days, so this batch of larvae probably won't make it. Fortunately...

 

I have another pregnant female! She got right up against the glass and I was able to look with my micronta again. This time there is no doubt about what I saw as she lifted and rotated each one: spherical little yolk sacks with large eyes.

 

thor_ambionensis_egg.jpg

 

Hopefully this second batch will grow large enough that I'll be able to get a few larvae on video. :)

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Whys

Hmmm.... :/

 

Checked the breeder this morning and found 2 larvae on the water surface. I could find no others anywhere else and haven't a clue which female these came from. I don't believe they came from the one I identified with eggs. Do smaller females simply produce smaller clutches?

 

Then I found one of the 2 males in the overflow box and put him back in the tank without a second thought. Not 10 minutes later, I came back to find a female plucking the eyeballs from his corpse. My only theory is that he had escaped into the overflow box and upon returning him to the tank, the other male killed him. Is that possible?

 

I still have larvae in the kreisel, but food all gone. :(

 

Anyway, just a little confused and wanting brine shrimp eggs!

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Whys

So Jade, Amber, and I have been monkey'n around every day for the last week! ...It's been awesome. =)

 

I have 6 larvae remaining in the kreisel. I had more than I thought the last time I gave a count, but their number has steadily decreased over time and I'm confident 6 is the current total. Not too bad I suppose, given that I more or less starved them for the first week. Now I have a nice supply of eggs from brineshrimpegg.com.

 

No need to decapsulate these as far as I can tell; their hatch-rate is excellent all on their own. Of course, I've been sure to try and give them ideal conditions.

 

As I've mentioned before, it gets cold in my basement at night, requiring an extra 24 hours for the eggs to hatch. So I picked up a 14g plastic bin from Lowes, threw in a spare heater, a Koralia Nano, and some tap water. Now even if the air temp drops to 55 degrees, my babies stay an ideal 78-79. Also, that's a 2x24w T5 HO fixture, currently running a single 6500K bulb. I won't need the second bulb until I switch to phyto.

 

brine_shrimp_nursery.jpg

Jade is the tall one. ;)

 

As you can imagine, things have been getting really wild! Jade and Amber both said they just can't get enough of Julian's Thing! :D

 

Brought to us by Two Little Fishes, this thing is an ideal bit of intellectual inspiration. Much of what makes it such a pleasure, requires actually feeling it to understand, but to put it plainly, it's perfect.

 

julians_thing.jpg

 

That's a 1mm opening on the tip and the plunger gives you unimaginable control. ;)

 

Make'n babies!

 

feeding_time.jpg

 

When the water is still, the egg shells float and the nauplii sink. They will also be drawn to light, so disconnect the air pump, place a small light near the bottom of the bottle, and let sit for a couple of minutes. At the very bottom will be any unhatched eggs, so insert the extractor until it touches bottom, then raise it up half an inch, and extract.

 

Measuring feeding density isn't as easy as it sounds. The problem is, density in the kreisel is neither uniform, nor constant. I did my best to achieve what I believed to be a density of 5bbs/mL in the kreisel's inner drum, then from there, determined an approximate minimum measurement of eggs I would need each day. Mostly it was trial and error, but didn't take long to narrow down. Now I just keep to my measuring spoon while I refine my collection technique such that I use nearly all the brine shrimp I hatch. This way, I can just measure the eggs instead of the density, and adjust as needed.

 

BTW, If you're wondering what 5bbs/mL looks like, it's roughly equal to 1.5 ####-storms.

 

Brine Shrimp Egg, Baby, and Adult (napulii)

brineshrimp_egg_baby_adult.jpg

 

Brine shrimp grow quickly, and they won't find much to eat. This means the older they are, the less nutrition they have to offer. See that orange stuff? That's nature's goodness and the baby is packed full of it.

 

What? Not sexy enough for you?

 

pedobearbusted.jpg

 

This video was taken on the 23rd (a week ago) and the larvae don't have eye stalks yet.

 

 

Today, their eye stalks are barely noticeable to the naked eye. I've also been able to use a small light to draw one to the front glass and get a detailed look with my Micronta.

 

Wow! Got to watch it pluck a BBS right out of the water and devour it. Very cool... :)

 

Speaking of small lights, it's useful to have a small continuous light over the top opening on the kreisel. This helps to draw the larvae away from the tank walls and into the ####-storm. I recommend a Marina Betta Kit LED Light.

 

41zohWwb0-L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

 

It's the right intensity, as too bright might grow algae, and fully submersible, never a bad idea. Rigging it up might take figuring out, but two toothpicks and a zip-tie did the trick for me.

 

----------

 

I wish I knew where these larvae are with regards to development. Did the under feeding stunt their growth in the beginning? If it did, should they have since caught up, or does it push the due date back? Do two week old larvae have a better survival rate than newly hatched? What are the odds I might settle one of the remaining 6 sometime in the next two weeks? I'm not counting on it, but that sure would be grand. :)

Edited by Whys

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Whys

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brine_shrimp_nursery.jpg

 

doing it in the hot tub!!

 

:D

 

Of the original 20 larvae placed in the kreisel on January 18th, only 1 now remains. I call him Big Stalks because its eye stalks are now clearly visible from a distance.

 

Big Stalks exhibits differences in motion as well, now swimming with a considerable amount of control while making tight corkscrew or loop-da-loops in one direction or another.

 

If I can manage to keep him for another 7 days, there's a real chance he'll settle. :)

 

Also, another pregnant female should be due soon. This is one of my larger females and might have produced the first large clutch, so I'm hoping for another 20 or so. Given that success only ever exists as a percentage of the original total, the bigger the clutch, the better my odds.

 

Sea Monkeys are fun! Why would anyone ever stop doing this?

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Whys

Just a quick update...

 

I believe Big Stalks actually went missing a few days ago and I've been mistaking the identify of a slightly younger larvae that molted and began to look like Big Stalks. Point being, no settlement.

 

Not certain Big Stalks was as close to settlement as he should have been anyway. He was certainly bigger and his eye stalks were well pronounced, but compared to

, I'd say he was the equivalent of a normal 2 and a half week larvae. Thus I'm concluding that while the larvae are capable of surviving brief stints of under or no feeding, it does appear to slow or even halt their development.

 

I was feeding every 24 hours (not a bad way to start out), but have switched to every 12. The younger the babies the better, because they change significantly only 12 hours after hatching. So if you assume the first eggs begin to hatch at 18 hours and the majority at 24, then your oldest babies should be no more than 6 hours old at time of feeding.

 

I've been feeding at 11am and 11pm. This definitely helps the kreisel maintain a more consistent density between feedings as well.

 

My female did in fact release approximately 20 larvae on Feb 9. Half of them have already disappeared from the kreisel. I haven't any theories as to why so many immediately failed this time, but the remainder seem to be doing well.

 

Pj, is 20 larvae a "normal" sized clutch for a mature healthy female?

 

Umm_fish?, I no longer believe an air-driven sponge-filter is sufficient. All these BBS every 12 hours really add up, and their lifeless corpses have turned my refugium a field of pink. I do about a 3% water change daily, and about 10 to 15% water change once I see my ammonia creeping up (about once a week). Why only 3% daily? Because that's the volume of my canister. Simply giving it a dump and refill is actually the most convenient way to do a water change on the kreisel, but I might have to start doing larger daily water changes. We'll see.

 

Side note: when I decided what males and females to place in the breeder, I ended up with 3 small less viable males that I placed in my display tank. Today, one of them is female and I suspect "she" is pregnant. Yep! If they're still young enough, Sexy shrimp can change their sex. It took about 3 weeks from initial onset of changes.

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pj86

Whys, very cool you are making progress. The largest clutch I had was one of about 150-200. I would suggest increasing feeding for the female.

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Whys

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Whys, very cool you are making progress. The largest clutch I had was one of about 150-200. I would suggest increasing feeding for the female.

 

Good to know! I've started feeding twice a day. Might as well, I have to feed the larvae anyway.

 

Link

I just read through your entire thread - very entertaining indeed, and well documented! I'm trying my hand with Lysmata boggessi Peppermint shrimp, and not having a whole lot of luck. I have been using cylindrical vessels and fish bowls. I discovered the same Betta LED light as you, and use this above my vessels, it makes a big difference! Someone on here suggested doing daily 100% waterchanges which has made a big difference in the length I have been able to keep them alive, although this gives me plenty of opportunity to damage the larvae. How are you working around this?

 

I'm using a 3.5 inch sugar-fine-quartz sand bed in a HOB refugium.

 

Today, my Ammonia alert badge is edging its way to an "alert", but not quite there yet. We'll see how the next few days go. In the mean time, nitrite and nitrate are currently undetectable.

 

Link

Ryan, fwiw I've found those badges to be rather inaccurate. I like them as an alert, but I find the ammonia level is close to 10x what it says on the alert when I test with a kit in comparison. So any time I see a slight change on the alert I make sure I am remedying the situation.

 

Also, I just noticed you said that there is no need to de-cap your BS eggs because you are getting a good hatch rate. Imo, the most important benefit of de-capping the eggs is the resulting sterilization. BS eggs are known to be very "dirty", and often bring in hydroids for one.

 

I've never read of hydroid infested brine shrimp eggs before. Thank you for that information.

 

I did decapsulate my very first batch, just for the experience. But all the reasons I read for doing it had to do with calorie use and excess metabolites. While neither reason sounds like a bad idea, for my own approach, I'm just not certain it's necessary. Or at least, not necessary at this time. ;)

 

Hydroids in my kreisel? {shrug} There is simply no means I know of by which to gently remove the larvae from the breeder and insert them into the kreisel without moving over a small amount of water from the breeder. Yes, it's a small amount, but it adds up with every larvae moved. The way I see it, if I'm going to get hydroids, then I'm going to get hydroids. Should that happen, then it will be time to consider my options. I could be wrong, but the brine shrimp eggs just don't strike me as the greater of the threats.

 

That said, how do you go about decapsulating? I've found more than one recommendation for duration, for both rehydration and decapsulation. I don't want to under-do the former or over-do the latter. What numbers do you use?

 

As to the Ammonia badge, I am aware, but I don't need it to be accurate. I just need to know if there's an alert. If there's an alert, I do a water change. If there's still an alert, I do another. If it gets worse instead of better, then something is out of balance, and that's all I really need to know. The severity of the imbalance isn't that significant, unless it kills my larvae, in which case, I know I hit a red line. :D

 

My hope is that I can balance the system such that I can add my BBS daily without so much as an alert, then do about a 20% weekly water change. I'm pretty sure the sand bed can handle it. The only question is what to do about the BBS corpses slowly accumulating inside the kreisel drum. Algae growth inside the drum tells me I'll need to address those at least twice a week I think.

 

Thanks again for the important info. I will add it to my ruminations. :)

 

Link

For decapping I use one of those San Francisco Bay hatcheries to hydrate for 1 hour in clean saltwater. Then I strain the water out, and add undiluted bleach in the hatchery they bubble away. I make sure to swirl the hatchery a few times to knock the ones off the sides and into the bleach. I don't time the bleaching, I go by color. When the mix goes from brown to orange-brown I use a small spoon and scoop some eggs to look at. If there are about 10% that are clear, and I can't see any brown ones then I am done. If there are no clear ones yet then I go for another minute or so.

 

Regarding hydroids, the hydroid eggs(?) hitch a ride on the shell of the BS eggs. I believe the can introduce bacteria as well which can challenge the health of fragile larvae. It is good practice to decap BS eggs.

 

The BS corpses in the kriesel are likely shells from them molting I think...?

 

You use the ammonia alert the same way I do. :)

 

Okay, you've convinced me! Lately I've just been loath to add to the process, but I'll try to include decapsulation soon. I like your approach of waiting for a few clear ones. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the help. :)

 

Could be molts. I didn't think to look at them under the scope, but I will the next time I clean them out. But then, where do all the dead ones go? The larvae couldn't possibly be eating them all.

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