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Whys

Sexy Breeding -- Live nudes!

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spectre308

How am I just now finding this?

 

Congrats on your success, this was a wonderful read. =)

 

You and me both. I wonder how many times I've skimmed past this thread without realizing its a gold mine of knowledge and experience to be shared.

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MeepNand

Interesting! I might start up my own operation soon. Dwarf seahorse care is actually quite similar Whys, so you might want to try that. Except dwarf seahorses are easier to breed.

 

Make a for sale thread already!

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fretfreak13

Interesting! I might start up my own operation soon. Dwarf seahorse care is actually quite similar Whys, so you might want to try that. Except dwarf seahorses are easier to breed.

 

Make a for sale thread already!

I'm doing the same! lol

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hypostatic

:P I mean, I'm not gonna say i UNDERSTOOD it and knew what was really going on lol, but definitely read through it =]

 

I don't believe you. :D But that's okay, I wrote it for the archives. Thanks for looking it over, and no they started sexually differentiating about a week and a half ago. Looks to be about 50/50, but I can't say I've counted.

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BadCrab

I understood - less then 10% of it. haha, but that's the fun because you look things up and they lead you to more un-understood concepts or terms ad naseum. omgomgomg

 

I would be highly interested in getting together some folks from NanoReef that are interested in breading sexies (and other inverts.. but sexies seem like a pretty good starting point from what I gather in the MBI Index) and planning out some very cheap DIY kreisels and feeding setups and sharing our experiences, successes, and failures. We could basically all help eachother and become accepted MBI breeders.

It would then be natural to move unto other species and a larger group becomes even more vital - being able to provide controls and experiment on methodology in a compressed timeframe.

Is there anyone that would be interested in that and would Whys be interested in playing a mentor role?

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Whys

:P I mean, I'm not gonna say i UNDERSTOOD it...

 

Fair enough, I'll explain.

 

Two years ago I became completely fed up with Red Planaria Flatworms (Convolutriloba retrogemma).

 

hqdefault.jpg

 

After many experiments, I also became fed up with their prescribed cure: Flatworm-Exit.

 

flatworm_exit.jpg

 

I came to the conclusion that not only is FWE a poison I no longer wish to add to my tanks, but that its efficacy will continue to decline over the coming years, because we as hobbyists are inadvertently breeding more resistant strains in the petri dishes we call aquariums. When that time comes will we have few options. Thus I decided I wanted to try and be the first person to successfully breed (settle and cue) their only natural predator: Blue Velvet Nudibranch (Chelidonura varians).

 

blue-velvet.jpg

 

I also decided I wanted to cast a net rather than just a thread. Which is to say, this entire conversation is posted and cross-posted to 3 separate sites: nano-reef, mbisite, 4everb. That last one is mostly for my own record keeping and is mostly the result of my having been banned from RC and RP for simply trying to cross-post content between them. I then got banned from ModernReefKeeping for reasons never explained to me, thus creating my own forum from which to cast my nets seemed a sensible solution. Be warned: if you visit my site, you will be subjected to my personal life philosophy. ;)

 

Nano-reef was recommended to me because of its background in breeding Sexy Shrimp (Thor amboinensis) and MBIsite because of its background in breeding everything else.

 

sexyAnemoneShrimp2.jpg

 

Neither has much information on Blue Velvet Nudibranch, but both the Sexy Shrimp and BVN share a similar pelagic larva life cycle, and it is the larval phase that is the stumbling block to success. Thus the most sensible first step for me as a first time marine breeder has been to learn, refine, and master the breeding of Sexy shrimp. They really are a great place to start for anyone interested in raising pelagic larvae.

 

sexxxy!.jpg

 

I then started construction of a kreisel aquarium, using only items that are easy to find, obtain, and work with. I've given both links and tutorials such that others may choose to pursue this endeavor in cooperation. It is my hope that someone may eventually join me. :]

 

flying_kreisel.jpg

 

I like riddles, multiple meanings, and hidden jokes and have stuffed this thread full of them. Anyone who does try to follow, will UNDERSTAND this thread, more than you know. Understanding me... is another matter. :D

 

I have now concluded my proof-of-concept and have every confidence in my kreisel design, myself as a marine breeder, and in my personal life philosophy which got me here.

 

All the other stuff just keeps me entertained. AND THAT, is how I do it. :)

 

MOVING ON...

blue-velvet.jpg

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BadCrab

Hello Whys! I'm starting to plan my breeding setup and I was contemplating a food source. I'd prefer to avoid breeding or preparing my own BBS for the time being (small apartment - cost isn't extremely important as this is more proof of concept for me)

There is a local food source a reefer makes called Reef Stew. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to use as food? It does include BBS but I'm wondering if the algae is a waste and if the grown-out BBS could pose a threat to the sexies.

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Whys

There is a local food source a reefer makes called Reef Stew. I'm wondering if it would be appropriate to use as food? It does include BBS but I'm wondering if the algae is a waste and if the grown-out BBS could pose a threat to the sexies.

 

It could work, but it's less direct. The Thor larvae will feed on both the newly hatched BBS as well as the rotifers. The various algaes will only feed the BBS and rotifers, if I'm not mistaken. And the adult brine shrimp, while harmless, will only take up space and eventually foul the water.

 

Realize, achieving feeding density isn't easy. Typically you want only the ideal food, in its ideal state, so that you know it will get eaten and be as calorie packed as possible. Even then you still need a density of 3 to 5 BBS per CC of water. Do you know what that looks like? It's an insane amount of organics to be adding to the system once or even twice daily.

 

Rather than giving food to the food source while feeding the larvae, it is typically more advantages to feed a greater density of the intended food source. BBS still have their yolk sacs and that makes them ideal. Whereas if you're feeding them, then they're burning their own calories and have less to give. Also, they molt as they grow, which fouls the water.

 

If you have a thread, please link it. :)

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Whys

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Why, im using a 2gallon tank for my sexy babies. They will be 10 days old tomorrow. I do a water change every day... Almost half the tank which is probably to much but I have lots of old brine to suck out and clean the bottom of the tank. maybe I missed it but how often do you do water changes in your tank. And what size are you using for tank

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Also where did u get the mesh to capture the babies

I bought the mesh from Amazon; there's a post about it somewhere back in the thread. Feel free to use the search function.

 

I'm using a 2.5g for grow out, but the larvae were raised in a homemade kreisel made from a 10g tank, while the breeding tank was a 2.5g display connected to a 5g sump. Which system do you wish to know more about?

 

Can you explain your own system in greater detail?

 

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i was using a rectangle 2gal just using a heater and airstone. i switched to a cylinder vase/candle holder thing though. its about 5 inches wide and 12 inch high with heater and airstone. my newest batch is 13 days old now and i have much much much more survivors now. i switched to hatchable decapsulated brine and lowered the amount of bbs in the fry tank so my water is staying much cleaner. im also not doing as large of water changes. im doing 2 water changes now a day about 12oz in the morning and 12oz at night to get rid of old bbs and dirty water. im really hoping ill have some survivors this time i think im getting on the right track now. but who knows what will happen. im going to get some of that mesh and make a fry catcher. that way i dont actually have to move the girls to the fry tank when they are about to let go the babies.

Can you take some photos?

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Whys

Ka-Ching!

 

4sale1.jpg

 

 

+

Ka-Ching!

 

4sale2.jpg

 

Equals...bigmoney2.gif

 

money_money_money.jpg

 

bigmoney1.gif

 

I'm more or less giving them away. I'm keeping a handful for myself, but still have about 75 to find homes for. :)

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MeepNand

FIND HOMES HERE!

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BadCrab

Why censor the price you had on the tanks?

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Whys

Why censor the price you had on the tanks?

They aren't my tanks. Those are two different local fish stores, with two different prices. As a courtesy, I removed the prices.

 

One store isn't used to dealing in saltwater and has priced them lower for the quick sale. The other is primarily saltwater and is used to catering to wealthier clientele.

 

Helps to shop around I suppose. :)

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BadCrab

Ah, that makes sense :)

 

I'm still trying to mentally prepare myself to make a kreisel. I'm about the furthest thing from a DIYer there is.

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19jeffro83

Great job! I'd love some, lets get a group buy to come to nj/ny area.

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MeepNand

They aren't my tanks. Those are two different local fish stores, with two different prices. As a courtesy, I removed the prices.

 

One store isn't used to dealing in saltwater and has priced them lower for the quick sale. The other is primarily saltwater and is used to catering to wealthier clientele.

 

Helps to shop around I suppose. :)

You can't tell which store is which though. You didn't post pics of the employees or anything,

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Whys

You can't tell which store is which though. You didn't post pics of the employees or anything,

 

How many saltwater LFS do think this town has? If it isn't one, then it's probably the other. :D

 

I had actually meant to post a photo of the storefronts, but forgot to, then decided it wasn't worth fixing. Please realize, it takes time and effort to snap photos, work them in photoshop, put together a post, and then cross post it across 3 different sites with 3 different kinds of forum software. The image tags aren't even the same, since the upgrade. So you'll just have to forgive me if my removal of the prices seems unnecessary.

 

But honestly guys...

 

nitpicking.jpg

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Whys

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ill see if i can upload a pic. from what i can tell from yer posts the babies were around 6 or was it 7 weeks old when u started to feed them other food then bbs? and 6or7weeks when u transferred them to a grow out tank correct?. what type of flake food were u using?. im debating on wether to transfer my babies and the water they r to a container and wiping down the vase they are in im concerned it is getting to dirty, and then putting the water/babies back in it. what are your thoughts?.

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heres a pic

Cool! I hope it works out. Sounds like you know what you're doing, but if you have any questions, I'm happy to help.

 

 

The larval cycle is supposed to be 26 days long, but actual results may vary. Some will settle a few days early while the rest will settle over the course of about a week. And of course, a few will refuse to settle despite being healthy.

 

I continued to feed mine in the kreisel for about 2 weeks after the first settlement before moving them all to the grow out tank. That means the first to settle spent a total of 3 weeks in the kreisel post metamorphosis, and the last to settle spent at least 2 weeks.

 

The flake food I've been using is 4-in-1 Deliflake (For Community Tanks). It came to me from brineshrimpdirect.com and was thrown in for free when I ordered brineshrimp eggs. Or maybe it was an accident, I really don't know. But that's what I had on hand, so that's what I used. I've since switched mostly to mysis.

 

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man i was really hoping to be done with the bbs once they settled and im bummed that i have to continue feeding them bbs for another couple weeks.

I know the feeling. :]

 

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they are 23/24 days old now so hopefully by the end of this week ill have some settling. i dont have anything in their tank to settle on though for them

That's fine. They'll just settle on the bottom and morph.

 

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i need to get my growout tank set up i guess and start cycling it. i think im just gonna add a couple little pieces of dry rock to that one so no hitchhikers/bristleworms will be in it. ill probably use some of those cycling drops to speed up the process and test water before i add the shrimp. in your grow out tank did you have a filter or just airstone?

I didn't bother to cycle my grow-out tank. Mine is bare-bottom and I just do about 90% water change every couple of days. No other filtration.

 

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my babies are 30 days old and none of them have settled!!!! :( i dont understand. thoughts/suggestions?

Hard to know what the problem is. It could be water conditions. Have you tested? Or possibly feeding density. If they aren't eating enough, they'll take longer.

 

How active are they? Do they twitch or dart when disturbed? Do they sit idle on the glass?

 

I have no idea if this actually works, but I've read that others have found mature tank water to be helpful. While mature tank water can contain hydroids and other pests, this shouldn't matter in the short term.

 

Try it and tell me if it helps!

 

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they are pretty active, some sink some swim when i turn off airstone and they twitch and move when disturbed. i see a handfull of them when im doing water changes and seperating them from old brine standing but i dont really think they are getting into that position by themselves more like the water movement has pushed them or helped them into that position. im pretty sure they have enough food theyve lasted this long. im scared to test the water haha i know it isnt going to be great. im thinking maybe they are haveing hard time settling cause low ph, gonna add some to the next batch of water i make. i do have some things in my main tank that could get into the fry tank if i add water like those stupid tube snail/worm things whatever they are that make a string of mucus i guess their eggs could be floating in the water and get transfered to the fry tank but like u said it shouldnt really be a prob short term. sigh i just dont want to fail ive come this far and put in many many hours. i think ill try adding a cup tonight of tank water, maybe do that everyother day from now on see if that helps

You won't fail. You might quit, but that's something different. Don't quit. :)

 

Do some water tests. If pH is the problem, it'll tell you.

 

The worms sound like either vermetid snails or spionid worms. Spionids make their tube out of sand and vermetids look more like they're made of keratin. While they are filter feeders, both reproduce relatively slowly. They are also quite easy to find and remove.

 

Do be careful about adding too much mature water. It can be nutrient heavy and your fry tank probably doesn't have as robust of a biocycle.

 

Congrats on making it this far. Each step in the right direction is a complete success unto itself. By the time you reach your imagined destination, it's importance is largely lost to the experience of getting there, and entirely peripheral to what comes next.

 

This is it. If you aren't enjoying it already, then you're missing the point. ;)

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Whys

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I'm glad you are raking in the bucks. Sorry that I can't swing that kind of shipping money right now. The kid is in braces and demands vacations and whatnot.

I'm looking forward to your nudibranch try. Just so you know (and I'm sure you already know already), their larvae are more like pelagic snail larvae than shrimp larvae. My guess would be that the real difficulty will lie in producing enough food to keep the broodstock going. I'd guess that's where most of your tank space will be. Just food production.

Good luck!

 

...nudibranch... larvae are more like pelagic snail larvae than shrimp larvae.


Care to elaborate? I expect a longer larval cycle and phyto for feeding, but what else should I know?

My guess would be that the real difficulty will lie in producing enough food to keep the broodstock going. I'd guess that's where most of your tank space will be. Just food production.


For real. My culture dish has been... educational. :]

I won't be jumping to BVN right away. My family and I are moving this summer and there is much we need to do to prepare. In the mean time, I'm going to experiment more with flatworm, phyto, and possibly rotifer cultures.

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Slugs and snails are mollusks and have (very) similar larvae. Slugs go through a veliger phase with a shell just like snails. It was really eye-opening to me to take a look at baby nudibranchs in the egg casings and have them look just like snails. Shrimps have shrimpy sort of larvae and they are very different. For example, if I had to guess, I would probably say that you are looking at live phytoplankton as a first food (if your nudibranch eats as a veliger, some don't). Shrimp, as you know, are very good at catching big prey items and chewing on them. (As also opposed to fish, who can't chew and need to have prey small enough that they can swallow them whole.)

But, I have no clue what the blue velvet's larval development cycle is like. Snails and slugs can be all over the place in terms of whether and how long they are in the plankton, as well as whether and what cues they need to induce settlement.


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Stuff for your information:

First, I'm sad to report that it looks like the sea slug forum is gone. That's is a ton of good information that may be lost forever.

Links:

http://forum.marinedepot.com/Topic19611.aspx

You could write to this guy and see if he ever followed through:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/5/short

Other than that, I'm not having much luck on searches for people who work on slug larvae for that specific animal. Sorry.

 

I have no clue what the blue velvet's larval development cycle is like. Snails and slugs can be all over the place... I'm not having much luck on searches for people who work on slug larvae for that specific animal.


hysterical.gifLOVING IT! dance3.gif
Realize... I'll get to measure things that can't be found anywhere else on the internet!

laugh.gif

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Whys

=== TREASURE HUNT ===

This game is open to all and here is how it is played.* Answer the five riddles below to see a photo of what's hidden behind the cardboard on my kreisel. Answers must be submitted in full, in order, no extras. Incorrect answers will be quoted with a strike-through. First person to correctly answer all five, WINS!

ninja.gif

  • Show me step zero.
  • Why is 5 afraid?
  • Who are Jetsam & Lagan?
  • Who's the short one?
  • What is the answer to life the universe and everything?


broadside.jpg

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Whys

Show me step zero. (Infuriating a bunch of mods and admins until I'm forced to create my own forum."?

laugh.gif No, but I love the answer!

Hint: "show."

Why is 5 afraid? - 789.

ninjaslice.gifClose...

Who are Jetsam & Lagan? - Applicator and spreader.

Yes, but the question is who?

Hint: think politics.

Who's the short one? - Plucky?

ninjaslice.gif

What is the answer to life the universe and everything? - 42

rolleyes.gif

 

Thank you for playing.

Please try again tomorrow. smile.gif

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MeepNand

I just want to see what the answers are. Will they be face-palm-groan answers, or really weird ones?

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Whys

I just want to see what the answers are.

 

And I just want others to contribute.

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MeepNand

And I just want others to contribute.

Sorry, just wanted to say something.

On a different note, when is the breeder going to be in use?

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Whys

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well i have some good news.... i spotted 2 settlers. one is way more transformed compared to the others. its butt is flipped up all the way like a adults. at first i thought i had broken his tail with my turkey baster but then i realized he was just further along phew!. when i put him back in main tank he can stand totally upright in a lower flow. it only took 39 days!!!!!!!!!! my babies must be "slow". theres some that can right them selfs too when they are on their backs and go into a standing position. i see them when i am seperating them from the old brine. i tested the water but only for ph and nitrates and was shocked to see nitrate was 0 and ph was 8.2 i guess all those dang water changes are paying off. i just wish the rest would speed it along!. i was concerned about my flow though. i know that its supposed to be high enough so they cant settle on bottom and cling to surface when they are young but not high enough to be blowing them around all hard and crazy. however since they are older now and some can stand upright do u think i should turn it down a little?. not so much though that a bunch will just pile up on the bottom.

Hey, good work! smileys-applause-014530.gif

 

They'll look just like miniature sexy shrimp in a few days. You won't believe they can be that tiny.

 

I can't tell you if you should turn the flow down or not, but I kind of figure, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

 

I'm still betting feeding density is why it took 39 days.

 

PHOTOS! :)

 

 

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Wow got lucky with this shot I was taking pics of just one hanging on the side of tank and I just so happened to see these guys! Counted 5 for sure settlers

 

Image

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Well my babies are around 55 days old most have settled finally theres a handful that probably won't. I'm scared about transferring them to grow out tank. I'm scared to put live rock in cause i'm scared bristle worms will eat them and i'm also scared to add dry rock cause i'm scared it will make my levels spike. I should have started grow out a couple Weeks ago but lazy. When u added yours to grow out tank did u stop putting live bbs in there altogether and just added unhatched decap? How much decap did u add

My grow out had absolutely no filtration. I just did 90% water changes every couple of days. Realize, nearly all of your bioload is going to come from the food, not the shrimp. I found overcrowding to be the greater concern.

 

I tried live BBS the first two days, but quickly concluded that after metamorphosis and outside the kreisel, they stop filter feeding and start scavenging. I added unhatched decapped for a couple days tho, just to ensure a smooth transition. Flake food is ultimately what you really want, and just about any flake food should suffice. As they mature, you'll want to phase in meaty foods, such as pellets or mysis. Mysis is the better of the two.

 

Nice photo! Good work and good luck. :)

 

Oh, and I should add, bristleworms are your friend. I guess I lied when I said I had no filtration. I did put a single golf ball sized chunk of live rock rubble in my 2.5g, and it contained 4 small bristleworms. They were of real benefit because it seems like the only way to keep the shrimp fed is to constantly add too much food. The bristleworms played a significant role in cleaning up leftovers, and there were always leftovers because it was like trying to feed a big party. Everyone is eating at any given moment, there are half eaten portions on discarded plates, and no one seems to know where they left their drink. The worms played busboy and boy did they get fat.

 

 

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lol I like your party scenario explanation. I'll go ahead and use a small piece of live rock then, to bad I don't have any to spare in my tanks, back to the fish store I go, need to get the flakes anyways. I'm gonna transfer them this coming Wednesday I think, transferring them is making me so nervous for some reason. My decap brine isn't home made, I bought it off line so its the kind that has that solution in it to prevent them from hatching till they are added in saltwater. So I guess it wouldn't be a good idea to add it directly into their tank right?. Rinse super good first probably so that stuff isn't in their water

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I've put my babies in a grow out tank 2.5gal. Counted around 81 &5 that wouldn't settle. I have no clue how much decap I should give them. Shouldtheir food be settling on the bottom of tank or blowing around still?. how long should I keep giving them decap for?. Did your flake food blow around or rest on bottom. Need to go find some flake food I don't think I'll be able to find the kind that u got at the stores around here but hoping I'll find something similar. i'm stressing about the food such a change from the bbs worried they'll starve, did your decap ever hatch or did u remove before it could

Worry less, feed and water change more. :)

 

I followed the Mexican restaurant serving size rule of thumb: if there isn't food left on the plate, then the serving size should be larger. If you're doing even a 75% water change every 2 days, then left over food shouldn't really matter.

 

I also recommend not cleaning the glass. You'll get a nice bacterial mat.

 

Honestly, just keep throwing food in until they seem to stop eating. But since you are using a 2.5g for 85 shrimp, you'll need to remove some so the rest keep growing. I've really gotten the sense that over crowding stunts growth.

 

You're doing great! Congratulations. :)

 

 

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Sorry to keep bugging you but wanted to ask a couple questions. My guys have been in the grow out tank for about a week now, been feeding them flake and decap. Wanted to ask u how long u fed yours decap for. Don't know if i'm supposed to be weaning them off the stuff by now or not. Wondering if I should start giving them some real brine by now.

An amusing statement. I can only wonder how many have come and gone and never posted, for fear of bugging me. It seems lost on many that I have chosen a forum for my medium.

 

So who are your favorite philosophers? I'm fond of Nel Noddings.

 

 

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Can you please tell me how long I should feed the sexy shrimp babies decap for?. You've been very helpful, thank you.

You're welcome. :)

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