DaveFason Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The spectrum is all there. I have done 100+ builds now with just NW and RB and they are more than happy. Red again is almost impossible to blend as well. Having ANY flow at the top of your tank will result in a disco ball mess. If you look at graphs of MH or even T5 there is not one out there that has a spike of cyan/green. Even red is very subtle in the graph. Its colors that are not needed and not there in other light sources. Here are a few that I have tested of mine. Thanks to redfishsc. Sajay 400w Radium 20K Graph Cyan LED Blue LED Neutral White/RB/Cyan - As you can see its just out of whack. Neutral White/RB/RB I dont have one for red but most are a giant spike as well. I am not trying to be a jerk but as you can see the the NW/RB combo looks pretty darn close to a 400w Radium bulb which most people consider to be the "best" bulb out there. Adding more colors to the blend will only make it harder to mix, disco effect and more money for the end user. -Dave Link to comment
lpsouth1978 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 ....Red again is almost impossible to blend as well. Having ANY flow at the top of your tank will result in a disco ball mess.... I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. I am not a technical guy and can only draw from my personal experience. I currently have red 660nm LED's in my fixture. The build consists of 24 - 20k white, 12 - 12k white, 24 - RB, 6 - CB, 3 - UV, and 3 - Red LED's. I have 60 degree optics on every LED except the Red and UV LED's. I have A TON of surface aggitation via stock pump, Canister filter return, and Vortec MP20 set at about 75% in reef crest random mode, all in a 34 gallon tank. With this setup the colors all mix beautifully, There is no "disco ball" effect as you described it. During my actinic cycle, I have all of the blues and the reds on and it gives a purple hue to the tank. Also, the reds seem to bring out the colors in red, yellow, and orange corals in the tank. I understand that the graphs show little to no use for these spectrums, but my experience is that, done properly, they can be added to the mix successfully, regardless of thier usefullness to the corals. Link to comment
AlanStanwyk Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 The spectrum is all there. I have done 100+ builds now with just NW and RB and they are more than happy. Red again is almost impossible to blend as well. Having ANY flow at the top of your tank will result in a disco ball mess. If you look at graphs of MH or even T5 there is not one out there that has a spike of cyan/green. Even red is very subtle in the graph. Its colors that are not needed and not there in other light sources. Here are a few that I have tested of mine. Thanks to redfishsc. Sajay 400w Radium 20K Graph Blue LED Neutral White/RB/Cyan - As you can see its just out of whack. Neutral White/RB/RB I dont have one for red but most are a giant spike as well. I am not trying to be a jerk but as you can see the the NW/RB combo looks pretty darn close to a 400w Radium bulb which most people consider to be the "best" bulb out there. Adding more colors to the blend will only make it harder to mix, disco effect and more money for the end user. -Dave Is the conversation regarding the use of Red and these other "suspect" colors geared more towards the usefulness of the spectrum in terms of coral growth, or do they simply pop more coral colors while offering zero benefit to coral growth? In other words, if you built your array with enough RB and NW to provide enough of the proper spectrum for coral growth, but wanted to enhance or pop some more colors knowing full well theres no added benefit other than getting some brighter colors, would it be worth adding a few of these suspect LEDs? Or does RB and NW provide everything you need for growth and maximum Coral color intensity for display and the rest are pointless? Link to comment
jfarabaugh Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Yes, I know magenta is not a color but a mixture of blue and red. If you have ever seen the magenta LEDs they look great. This will give us the red we want and in a broader spectrum of red then the straight RED leds give. Trying to blend these will be much easier than trying to blend red LEDs. Trust me.... once someone does a build using magenta LEDs it will catch on very fast. I always try to be first but I don’t think it will happen this time as it will most likely be a few months before I can do it. Link to comment
doug105 Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Dave, Your first graph representing the radium spectrum didn't show up on your post..... Doug Link to comment
Trick Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Where do we get high output magenta led's? Link to comment
gojk Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Yes, I know magenta is not a color but a mixture of blue and red. If you have ever seen the magenta LEDs they look great. This will give us the red we want and in a broader spectrum of red then the straight RED leds give. Trying to blend these will be much easier than trying to blend red LEDs. Trust me.... once someone does a build using magenta LEDs it will catch on very fast. I always try to be first but I don’t think it will happen this time as it will most likely be a few months before I can do it. Ecoxotic has Magenta stunner strips. The also have them in Blue and magenta combos. Link to comment
Trick Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Yes, but buying a stunner strip doesn't give much room for customization. We need the actual lamps themselves to make custom boards. Link to comment
jfarabaugh Posted August 16, 2011 Share Posted August 16, 2011 Where do we get high output magenta led's? I sent LEDgroupbuy the info. SemiLED makes a nice 3w magenta. Just need a large order to get them Link to comment
Machupicchu Posted August 17, 2011 Author Share Posted August 17, 2011 The spectrum is all there. I have done 100+ builds now with just NW and RB and they are more than happy. I wish i was you right now. Link to comment
AlanStanwyk Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Is the conversation regarding the use of Red and these other "suspect" colors geared more towards the usefulness of the spectrum in terms of coral growth, or do they simply pop more coral colors while offering zero benefit to coral growth? In other words, if you built your array with enough RB and NW to provide enough of the proper spectrum for coral growth, but wanted to enhance or pop some more colors knowing full well theres no added benefit other than getting some brighter colors, would it be worth adding a few of these suspect LEDs? Or does RB and NW provide everything you need for growth and maximum Coral color intensity for display and the rest are pointless? Anyone? Link to comment
lpsouth1978 Posted August 23, 2011 Share Posted August 23, 2011 Anyone? According to the name of the thread this discussion is all about the aesthetics of the LED's, not really the usefulness of them to our corals. While it is important to consider all of those things when building our lighs, the aesthetics are also important. If the reds and other non conforming colors are not harming any of our tank's inhabitants, and I like the color achieved by using them, then who's place is it to tell me that I am wrong in using them. If, however, there is something in the non conforming colors that is harmfull to the inhabitants then by all means share that with the group. I think that use of LED's is still too new and experimental for anyone to say that someone else is wrong for trying something different. Our knowledge of the usefullness and ways of mixing colors effectively will only increase through the efforts of those willing to experiment and try things that others may "think" are wrong simply because no one currently does it. I hope that this did not come accross as an angry rant, because it is not. It is just my thought in regard to the question posted by Alanstanwyk. Link to comment
Machupicchu Posted August 23, 2011 Author Share Posted August 23, 2011 Is the conversation regarding the use of Red and these other "suspect" colors geared more towards the usefulness of the spectrum in terms of coral growth Both, the purpose of adding red to the mix is to warm up the overall color temp in the tank, not so much to specifically pop certain colors, but the problem with adding red is that it is kind of an extreme and is hard to blend well, especially with optics. Most have come to the conclusion that by switching cool white out for neutral you can finesse the warmer colors into the overall render while maintaining i good blend. As far as growth, red doesn't make it too far past the surface of the water, so i cant imagine it being very beneficial to most corals, i also wouldn't be surprised if adding larger amounts of red would even give you funky coral coloration over time. Link to comment
Trick Posted August 24, 2011 Share Posted August 24, 2011 Does anyone know where we can buy high output magenta LED's for an ok price? Also check out the color on the new AI Nano: http://reefbuilders.com/2011/08/24/ai-nano-led-3/ Its using XM-L CW and XP-E RB, CB. The color looks great, anyone know why the XP-G's don't looks as good? Link to comment
gabe_j Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 you have to import them from china and its iffy at best apparently Link to comment
kory1006 Posted September 6, 2011 Share Posted September 6, 2011 I currently have 20 LEDs with a 1:1 of XP-E RB and XP-G CW. Looking to warm it up a little, how would swapping 5 of the CW for NW look? Results would be 10 RB, 5 CW, 5 NW. Link to comment
Trick Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 when you use neutral white your supposed to use a 2:1 RB to NW ratio. So if you replace some CW with NW then you may have too much yellow unless you can dim. Link to comment
Paleoreef103 Posted September 7, 2011 Share Posted September 7, 2011 The spectrum is all there. I have done 100+ builds now with just NW and RB and they are more than happy. Red again is almost impossible to blend as well. Having ANY flow at the top of your tank will result in a disco ball mess. If you look at graphs of MH or even T5 there is not one out there that has a spike of cyan/green. Even red is very subtle in the graph. Its colors that are not needed and not there in other light sources. I dont have one for red but most are a giant spike as well. I am not trying to be a jerk but as you can see the the NW/RB combo looks pretty darn close to a 400w Radium bulb which most people consider to be the "best" bulb out there. Adding more colors to the blend will only make it harder to mix, disco effect and more money for the end user. -Dave I agree with this, but add one more thing. If you're that concerned about getting every piece of the spectrum, why not just add a T5 or two. I know, you add replacement costs, but for 20-30 bucks a year in replacement you get that added kick you are desperately trying to get. No shortage of true actinic, purple or full spectrum bulbs there! I know, it costs some LED purity, but isn't this more about getting the best out of your organisms? Until we get reliable sources of 420 nm LEDs and maybe magentas (which I think neutral whites should be fine in that area), T5s still have their uses to add that little extra umph. Link to comment
kory1006 Posted September 8, 2011 Share Posted September 8, 2011 when you use neutral white your supposed to use a 2:1 RB to NW ratio. So if you replace some CW with NW then you may have too much yellow unless you can dim. Both strings are on a Mean Well 60-48D, so they are dimmable. With the 2:1, I technically would be 2 RB per 1 NW, with some CW mixed in. Link to comment
AlanStanwyk Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Whats the latest? Ecotech just released that "rainbow cluster" fixture(Radion?) and theres mixed reviews, none of which seem to be from anyone who owns the fixture or has seen it with coral under it. The photo they released with live rock under it looked terrible, but who knows-LEDs are hard to photo. Consensus seems to be: RB to NW at 2:1 with possibly a couple CW and/or CB mixed in at a low ratio for the best color. TV is beneficial, but is impossible to source. Red and Cyan are unnecessary and hard to blend. Any updates on this info? Link to comment
Trick Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 Iono, wish evil would say something. Link to comment
Machupicchu Posted September 15, 2011 Author Share Posted September 15, 2011 Good consensus. Thumbs up. Also, placing in clusters mixes color better. Link to comment
cet98 Posted September 15, 2011 Share Posted September 15, 2011 this may be one of the very best LED threads I read (for the last days days ) thank you to all that have, and continue to contribute to it... However, can one of the resident LED experts explain something to me please... I'm a bit unsure of what people are referring to as Neutral White (as it relates to K values) It seems to me that Cool Whites are rated at between 6 - 10K, so does that mean NWs are 4 - 5K and WWs are 3K and less? I ask because as I shop for which led manufacturer I may buy, there seems to be a variation in descriptions depending on the manufacturer. So one CW may be anothers NW....uurrrgghhh...confused, sorry Link to comment
Machupicchu Posted September 16, 2011 Author Share Posted September 16, 2011 Ya neutrals are usually anywhere between 3400K and 5500k. Link to comment
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