Peroxide saves my Tank! With pics to Prove It!

[Monsieur Kam]

OP had a grass tank I don't believe it cleared up just like that with h2o2. Crazy stuff. I don't think I will ever dose h2o2,rather just rely on my DIY algae scrubber.

[brandon429]

It works just as he posted. There are links here to ten other forums with similar runs, all very honest feedback lol I know it looks to good to be true, that's why we got forty thousand views...the repeatability factor, anyone can replicate with all the details listed

 

Algae scrubbing is a viable alternative just like carbon dosing, heavy nutrient skimming etc-go where you can get results!

 

Its easy to think any of the systems is working on a tank under two years old, but once they age the challenge really starts, the more options the better.

[RK_tek]

As requested, I have an update for my 27g.

Things did not go well. I treated the entire tank for Neomeris by dipping in a 50/50 HO/SW solution in early May. The Neomeris has come back with a vengeance. Last night I decided to re-treat everything again. This time, after letting the rocks soak for 3-4 minutes, I manually removed as much as possible, used a pencil torch to burn the areas where the Neo had been and any Neos still on the rock, then I placed back in the HO/SW for another minute before rinsing. I also siphoned tons of Neo that were free on the sand bed by putting a net over a bucket. This caught almost a half cup of Neo. No pictures this time around, but I'll keep this updated

[brandon429]

So to summarize the stuff is ornery? Lol good to hear from ya man

[NanoTopia]

Trying to understand the basic chemistry of this type of treatment. By increasing Hydrogen with H2O2 in the water, you would also be increasing the ORP and reducing pH. I would think a good guide line for dosing would be to watch pH, not letting it dip too low. Does this sound right?

[brandon429]

The amounts we use have no detectable effect of pH, it takes less to kill the target than what it does to impact the chemistry in a measurable way.

 

There are zero formal studies on peroxide in the reef tank, only ponderances with no backup.

 

What you posted sounds reasonable though. We did a lot of pH monitoring in early tests, tests for loss of filtration bacteria (Ammonia and nitrite)

And detected nothing, even in larger than normal doses.

I begged Randy Holmes Farley to write an article about it after his keen eye for study but he is so against any in tank treatments he just won't.

When these threads reach epic anecdotal proportions, somebody will

 

There was a paradoxical effect on orp, an initial drop, in a thread a few pages back in the chemistry forum on Rc

 

Boomer, an incredibly smart guy noted it when doing some early treating in o9

 

We know exactly jack on how it works lol, just the great outcomes!

[NanoTopia]

There was a paradoxical effect on orp, an initial drop, in a thread a few pages back in the chemistry forum on Rc

 

Interesting, a drop in ORP, I would have thought it would increase it, at least over some time with continual dosing. Well it seems to be working for quite a few people, so whatever it is doing exactly seems to be positive for eliminating algae.

[brandon429]

Yes I've never been too chemistry inclined but if you ever get bored and want to see some laborious chemistry fights we have check Randys chem forum for any peroxide threads lol

 

They do the hobby justice by providing restraint to keep people from dumping crazy things in tanks lol

 

But in some places they advocate using freakin drain cleaner lye and then I jab them for that and we go off a few pages lol

 

If I had to continue guesswork on the orp id say a decent dose should be raising it. These guys are so scared of a little peroxide in the tank they just try little amounts and maybe that has some inverse chemistry or something

[Enigma]

This thread has been extremely helpful.

 

I have a very mild bryopsis problem. But, due to the nature of broyopsis problems, especially how quickly mild problems can become huge problems, I'm taking a two stage approach (one of which is Tech M).

 

No photos, as they won't tell you much. The problem is that minor at present: a few strands here and there (mostly on my glass and sandbed).

 

The bryopsis came into my tank on a frag two weeks ago. I plucked off what I could see, but that wasn't good enough. It quickly grew on that frag, and then popped up on three other corals that I got at the same time. It also grew to a couple of neighboring corals.

 

Everything small (small enough to fit in a cottage cheese container) was dipped in a 1:10 H202:Tankwater solution, for ten minutes. Nothing died. My birdsnest turned brown, my Blasto Wellsi "barfed", and my chalice got bubbles in it. It has been a few days, and the bryopsis on the dipped corals is dead. All of my corals are recovered/recovering (my birdsnest is still quite brown, but its polyps are extended and I'm not worried about it). I've dipped a few more since then, and I'm pleased with how things are looking.

 

Due to the issues with the sandbed and the glass, I am dosing the system: 40B display and 15G sump. I started with three days @4ml, one day @5ml, today @7.5ml. Nothing is happening in the display yet. I will continue to up the systemic dosage until I see some sort of response (negative or positive) that I can attribute to the H202. My Duncan is unhappy. But, it hasn't been happy since it moved to this new display tank so I can't attribute its bad mood to the H202.

 

Does anyone know what the half-life of the H202 is when dosing systemically?

[brandon429]

Thank you for posting I'm sorry we only have loose interpretations of that kind of detail since no one has done formal aquarium studies.

 

We don't even know how to measure immediate chemical impacts much less degredational details, its all so anecdotal it makes a scientist repulse

 

All the basis so far has been ammonia/trite testing for bacteriological inference and simple collected coral response behaviors for how our inverts are affected

 

That being said I bet we fix your bryopsis lol

 

If you really want some fun, log into reefcentral so you can access Randy Holmes Farley in his chemistry section.

 

Pose him the question, he can probably reference some kind of aqueous chemistry on the matter but he is very much against the in tank treatments aspect of our guesswork here...

[Enigma]

I will endevour to compose a question for Mr. Holmes Farley, that won't explicitly state what I'm up to.

 

It is hard to guage the required approach without knowing the half life, and whether or not the active h202 is building in the the tank with daily doses. I'm guessing not, but that is the riskier of the assumptions to make.

[brandon429]

Interestingly, highland reefer on the site has linked an oceanic study of peroxides persistence in an area of the reef in a formal study from Japanese oceanographers, the article said something about a two day half life which I find amazing taking into consideration the flow rates on natural reefs.

 

You will see a lot of educated guesswork regarding aquarium use, and zero links to peer reviewed work. Peers are too busy yapping pros and cons to get anything on paper lol.

[Enigma]

Huh. The possibility of a two day half life is interesting. I'll keep that it mind. It would certainly change things as far as dosing goes.

[Enigma]

Here is what I can tell you right now, as far as the tolerance of my corals to the treatments:

 

 

Hopefully that image shows up well enough to read it. I will try to make the next version of the chart more clear.

 

As I'm also dosing mag and reef builder, I was unsure as the what was making the corals unhappy. My small torch was very, very unhappy!

 

I didn't dose H202 yesterday, and everything was happy and open when I came home from work. So, I am under the assumption that the unhappy corals were responding to the level of H202 in the system. I did dose the 7.5ml today: to see what happens.

 

I am setting up a tank in the basement as a temporary home for anything stressed by the systemic treatments. I am very interested in seeing what happens with the treatments, and I'm not willing to give up on them quite yet.

 

Oh. Some kind of slime has popped up in my display. I'm pretty sure it is dinos. The slime has appeared on the sand right next to my "frag zero" (the one the bryopsis came in on). I have seen no reduction in the bryopsis from the systemic treatments, and it is continuing to spread.

 

There are presently no fish in this system (they're in the qt/ht), and there are two Mexican Turbo snails and a handful of Nassarius.

 

Note that I am using 3% H202.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Enigma

[brandon429]

That's extremely helpful thank you!

 

Fwiw don't forget about simple concentration methods we've detailed on the last three pages of the big Rc nanos thread: submerged spot treatments

 

That amount of peroxide you are adding can be amplified markedly without changing volume added

 

Turn off pumps, still the waters, use an injection tool to very slowly inject x ml of peroxide right onto any target underwater

 

The slower, the more effective, this speeds things up considerably!

 

On reefcentral we have expanded techniques of covering particularly bad rocks underwater with Saran wrap, using straight pins to hold it in place with circulation off, injecting up under tarp, waiting several minutes then removing/turn on flow

 

In nanos you can't beat an extrernal treatment tho...no peroxide in main tank.

 

I don't think I've seen such a helpful list of tolerant nano corals gracias!

[Enigma]

Dosing schedule and latest observations:

 

 

The bryopsis on the glass is pretty much all dead. I can maybe only see a couple of strands on the sandbed. I am very pleased with the reduction in bryopsis on the glass and the sandbed, as those two things are the reason I opted to do systemic treatments. The bryopsis is still growing on the rocks. I can pull and dip those, so I'm not particularly worried about that.

 

I suspect that switching my dosing to the morning instead of the evening will eliminate some of the stress to the corals (they all appear fine now). I do run a fuge light at night, however, so the H202 would is exposed to light at night, just not as much as during the day.

[brandon429]

Have you done any of the underwater spot injection concentration ideas

[Reef Miser]

OP had a grass tank I don't believe it cleared up just like that with h2o2. Crazy stuff. I don't think I will ever dose h2o2,rather just rely on my DIY algae scrubber.

It's for real. No lying. I had problems with dosing early on, so I got my tank under control just using dips. Good luck with your ATS though. I hear they really can work wonders. For some people though, especially with nanos, space is a major limiting factor which rules out scrubbers. H2O2 is just a different way of control.

 

It is exciting to see this concept morph into so many different applications and throughout the hobby and on so many different forums. I'm glad I was able to help

 

Albert- good to have you in my thread. What an honor.

[brandon429]

Its the best idea I've seen, nothing works better in my tank Hella job man. Ive enjoyed the myriad tech arguments across forums too thanks for new subject material

[Enigma]

Have you done any of the underwater spot injection concentration ideas

 

Nope. Not yet.

 

The bryopsis is scattered all over the rocks pretty evenly at this point, and my infestation is is still minimal enough that it can't even be seen in full tank shots. In the event an area starts to become more dense, I'll certainly attempt concentrated spot injection. If the glass and the sand stay clear, I think my best option may be to dip the rocks.

 

The systemic dosing is so quick and easy. Between my two sons (the eldest of whom just moved back home), my husband (who often qualifies as a third "kid"), the dog, the rabbit, the garden, the HT and three fussy eaters, my full-time+ oil & gas job, two hours+ spent commuting each day, and hubby's construction company . . . "quick and easy" is good. It takes me less than two minutes a day to do all of my dosing (H202 and other additives).

 

I may have some time this weekend to spend a little more time with the H202 treatments (spot and/or dips). I would really like to nuke it good!

[NanoTopia]

Oxidation reduction potential (ORP) is one of the least understood measurements made in reef aquaria. Randy Holmes-Farley writes himself that "It is, perhaps, the single most complicated chemical feature of marine aquaria that aquarists will typically encounter." I can say my understanding of it's complexity is quite limited however, the following may help explain why H2O2 is helping fight various forms of algae in the reef aquariums here on Nano-Reef.com. I recommend reading a fine article by Randy Holmes-Farley entitled, ORP and the Reef Aquarium, published online: Article.

 

By raising the oxidizing potential in your aquarium, you increase the potential to oxidize organics, algae being one that uses those organics. Holmes-Farley writes, "The true leaders of the oxidizers are far less numerous, but considerably more potent fighters. These include ozone (O3), hydrogen peroxide (H2O2), triplet oxygen (3O2), and a variety of oxygen radicals, some with such inspiring names such as superoxide radical (O2-). They also include chlorine (Cl2) and chloramine (NH2Cl)." Simply put, dosing H2O2 increases the ORP thus, raises the oxidizing potential of your water. I would think the more you dose, the more, theoretically, your ORP should rise. This is stated by Holmes-Farley as well in his article, "If there are lots of potent oxidizers around, and not so many reducers, ORP rises because the electrode senses more oxidizing "power" in solution. Likewise, ORP drops if it senses more reducing power in solution. It would be safe to assume then that, too much H2O2 and you run the risk of raising it so high that it begins to destroy every living thing in your aquarium.

 

I don't want to go on forever here but wanted to help clarify what process may be taking place in reef aquaria when dosing H2O2, as I like to understand why things work as they do. Because oxidizers (H2O2) are reduced to some degree on a constant basis by the reducers in the water, I would think small doses of H2O2 over a long period of time would most effective in the long term. The idea would be to simply increase ORP, but not to the extent it harms corals etc. Interestingly, Holmes-Farley points out that additives, such as Iron containing ferrous ion, work against the oxidizers in the water. Iron interestingly enough, fuels the growth of various algae and works to destroy oxidizers, as do other organics. H2O2 tolerance in reef aquaria may be influenced by the amount of organics in the existing water. Water with low levels of organics may need less H2O2 to be effective, but generally water with low levels of organics have less of a problem with nuisance algae as a rule.

 

As I stated in another post, it may be beneficial to monitor ORP in the aquarium when dosing H2O2 just to be safe. Holmes-Farley states, "[that] aquarists have to hope for, and to some extent maintain, this battle in a sort of middle ground. That middle ground is typically described as being between 200 and 500 mv. Most aquarium authors have recommended a range of 300-450 mV. Why? Mostly because the ocean often has ORP in this range, and because these authors have successfully operated aquaria in this range." So exceeding 500 mv may be damaging to your livestock and the overall balance of your water.

 

 

 

 

All quotes taken from Online ORP and the Reef Aquarium, 2003, by Randy Holmes-Farley. www.reefkeeping.com

Edited July 13, 2012 by NanoTopia

[Reef Miser]

There was a paradoxical effect on orp, an initial drop, in a thread a few pages back in the chemistry forum on Rc

 

Boomer, an incredibly smart guy noted it when doing some early treating in o9

 

Here is a scenario to ponder:

 

What if the highly reactive peroxide works quickly and grabs most of the electrons it needs from the algal cell walls (corrosive oxidation is peroxide's mode of operation in killing algae) causing cell lysis. We expect the ORP to spike, but the peroxide could be used up quickly and almost immediately not allowing a reading on an ORP probe. But once the cells break open, the water column is flooded with organics (reducers). This would cause a dip in the ORP. These organics aren't nearly as good of reducers as peroxide is an oxidizer, so secondary oxidation-reduction reactions that are already at play in the aquarium go to work to bring ORP back into equilibrium since the peroxide has all been used up by this time.

 

 

I was just reading an article about ORP and it showed a dip in ORP after feeding while pH remained constant. That is what made me think that it is organic that are causing the dip after peroxide treatments.

 

 

Let me know what you think.

 

 

Edit-

Nanotopia- The article you referenced was the one I was reading and referring to. I responded before seeing your post. Thanks for the link.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Reef Miser

[Enigma]

Most excellent info! Thanks so much, you two.

 

I'm now kicking myself for not ordering the ORP probe for my Apex. I wonder how quickly I can get one?

[brandon429]

Found the paradoxical thread I mentioned just so y'all wouldn't think i'm making it up

http://www.reefcentral.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1153115

[NanoTopia]

I think the process you described is fair, one has to assume H2O2 is being added on a regular basis, in too small amounts for this to occur. Larger amounts of H2O2 might swing the ORP gradually upward even if it is used up. Monitoring ORP might be a good way to determine the correct dose. If H2O2 is being used up and ORP falls, you know it is safe to add more H2O2, that is until your ORP begins to climb out of range.

 

I think H2O2 is not much different from adding and monitoring ozone, ORP probe helps you determine the correct dose delivered. I personally would not choose to lower organics in my reef aquarium with either method as the risk it poses with starving corals and upsetting the balance of bacteria. I am not taking sides on this practice, I just like to weigh out the benefit vs risk when it comes to what I have invested in corals. If I had to guess, and this is only a guess, SPS would be one of the first organisms, besides algae to be affected by dosing H2O2.

 

I might add that, unless the underlying problem with nuisance algae is addressed, one would have to be adding peroxide daily forever. I am curious to see the long term effects of dosing H2O2 on corals, even after the process of dosing has ended. This would be a huge stress factor on most corals, wonder how one could make them bounce back if they showed signs of decline after a dosing period, feed more? Thus the cycle begins again.