Vacuuming substrate...yay or nay?

[Aurortpa]

So I've read a lot of contradicting info on the web about whether or not reefers vacuum their substrate or not. It seems even advanced aquarist have differing opinions.

 

I'm big on nutrient exporting and control in my tank. I blow off the rocks every few days, wash my mechanical filtration out daily, culture macros, and am meticulous about feeding. I noticed that my substrate is SUPER dusty--if you just swish the top a dust cloud explodes. It's really bothering me that it's that "dirty". My substrate is 1" or less...far from a DSB, just purely aesthetic.

 

I have no detectable ammonia, nitrate, nitrities or even phosphates. However, I know something is feeding the green dust algae and explosive pod population I have (you can see hundreds of them swimming around in the water column when the actinics are on). I am thinking it might be leeching out of my substrate, although the green is waning and my corraline is starting to take a foothold.

 

I understand the vacuuming issue is a divided one. I just want to hear why you do OR don't and how it has worked out for you tank, before I go out and buy a vacuum lol. Thanks!

[Mariaface]

One reason not to vacuum would be microfauna loss, but in a healthy system they'll be able to replenish themselves.

 

Another reason is in a deeper sandbed, where vacuuming may disturb anaerobic regions.

 

Maybe don't vacuum if locking in excess nutrients is your goal? You're noticing pod growth, coralline growth, etc, and that can be viewed as beneficial.

 

Honestly, if your substrate is less than an inch then vacuuming or otherwise disturbing the sandbed is a great idea to remove detritus. Just like the rest of your mechanical filtration. You can also use a turkey baster to blow the detritus into the water column so that it's picked up by the overflows or by organisms.

[brandon429]

heres my take as a link, too good of a dustup to retype:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/369508-a-hidden-secret-to-stability-rinsing-live-sand-before-use-rinsing-all-sand/

 

I strive purely for no detritus, and then every other beneficial aspect of a sandbed in terms of fauna and function only without just the mud inclusion. we try to document that you can have every single preferable aspect of a deep sand bed, without the detritus, if you either prevent or know how to clean without causing a cycle. apologies to anyone having to read that much linkage above, passionate topic perhaps. at least some work is there for review. when reviewing procedures its handy to point out there are things we do in our own homes to make a paradigm, and things we do in others tanks to test repeatability across threads for a given claim or viewpoint, and these two modes are often in conflict.

[Aurortpa]

heres my take as a link, too good of a dustup to retype:

http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/369508-a-hidden-secret-to-stability-rinsing-live-sand-before-use-rinsing-all-sand/

 

I strive purely for no detritus, and then every other beneficial aspect of a sandbed in terms of fauna and function only without just the mud inclusion. we try to document that you can have every single preferable aspect of a deep sand bed, without the detritus, if you either prevent or know how to clean without causing a cycle. apologies to anyone having to read that much linkage above, passionate topic perhaps. at least some work is there for review.

 

I have a strawberry conch I am also taking into consideration. Would I possibly be wiping out his food entirely if I did that? I was thinking about alternating my vacuuming schedule, halfing the area of my tank to leave him some stuff to sift through intermittently.

 

Anybody with conchs vacuum?

[Elizabeth94]

I do not have a conch in my system since it is too small, but I will let you know that I stir my sandbed really well before I do a water change. I take the end of my cleaning toothbrush and stir it up until there is a could of gunk. It is funny because this invokes a feeding response from my LPS and snails. So, I guess I do not technically vacuum the sandbed. However, sometimes I really can't believe how much crap comes out. I really do believe it helps with nutrients.

[Nano sapiens]

For a SSB (shallow sand bed) system, I have found weekly sand bed vacuuming to be very beneficial for long-term tank health in a small reef tank.

[brandon429]

I find the question about the conch to reflect special case scenarios that are different than what most sandbedders face, and a valid test against not rinsing, to me those tanks should focus more on the detritus incursion prevention vs the catch up removal 98% of rinsers are seeking.

 

 

Pinner Reef from my example thread intends his sandbed to be a source of natural nitrate reduction, that's additional special planning like your conch setup, maybe rinsing removes your goodies and maybe not, its ok to not rinse.

 

Regarding the claim that all sandbeds are helping keepers reduce nitrate via NNR, and as such no sandbed should be rinsed or it will lose its benefit to the tank, why are ATS, refugia, carbon dosing, biopellets, nopox, sulfur denitrators even here? They are making up for the fact that true NNR is almost nonexistent in reefing. bold claim there. million dollar retail support industry keeps proving the claim, imo, or we'd all just revert back to Berlin systems only via 1998 and be nitrate free.

 

 

NNR has been touted for 25 yrs now, long before these modes above were invented to make up for the fact the claim is grossly overclaimed.

[Nano sapiens]

I find the question about the conch to reflect special case scenarios that are different than what most sandbedders face, and a valid test against not rinsing, to me those tanks should focus more on the detritus incursion prevention vs the catch up removal 98% of rinsers are seeking.

 

 

Pinner Reef from my example thread intends his sandbed to be a source of natural nitrate reduction, that's additional special planning like your conch setup, maybe rinsing removes your goodies and maybe not, its ok to not rinse.

 

Regarding the claim that all sandbeds are helping keepers reduce nitrate via NNR, and as such no sandbed should be rinsed or it will lose its benefit to the tank, why are ATS, refugia, carbon dosing, biopellets, nopox, sulfur denitrators even here? They are making up for the fact that true NNR is almost nonexistent in reefing. bold claim there. million dollar retail support industry keeps proving the claim, imo, or we'd all just revert back to Berlin systems only via 1998 and be nitrate free.

 

 

NNR has been touted for 25 yrs now, long before these modes above were invented to make up for the fact the claim is grossly overclaimed.

 

NNR: 'Natural Nitrate Reduction'?

 

I guess one could say that a SB *can* be succesful in keeping nitrate in check, but often it is not since maintenance is either insufficient or absent.

[Aurortpa]

From what I have gathered, I do believe that substrate is just a neglected ticking time bomb and can just leech undetectable amounts of nutrients. I agree, reef keeper intervention is needed to keep this in check all for the same reason we intervene to clean any other part of our reefs. If I was to have enough critters to take care of all of it in my tank for me, I'd be overstocked IMO. My gigantic pod population and green dust algae collection despite my "perfect" tested water parameters perhaps attests to this.

I know some keepers don't even have any substrate at all in their tanks with much success. My substrate is just for looks in my system...so if it benefits the tank somehow, great...but I am not going to let it possibly do damage later on cause of lack of maintenance.

 

My tank is fairly new, so I will experiment with this while I have a chance. I haven't lost one livestock purchase I've made so wish me luck! I'll keep an eye on my pod population, see how it plays a role in the algae, and document how it affects the tank overall.

[braaap]

Sand is a place for poop to go to rest. I'm starting to frown on sand. But alas I have a conch named Carlos I have grown fond of.

[metrokat]

I took Nano Sapiens advice and vacuum my sand bed at every water change. When I started I only did a small area at a time. But now that the entire tank has been gravel vacd 10s of times, I reach in and do all exposed sandbed every time. The gunk that comes out is crazy.

[niQo]

I havent really vacuumed the sand for a good year i think. I have a goby that stirs it around a whole lot. He probably takes care of almost 50%. I also have a very small layer of sandin a pretty small tank. So far so good.

[Nano sapiens]

I took Nano Sapiens advice and vacuum my sand bed at every water change. When I started I only did a small area at a time. But now that the entire tank has been gravel vacd 10s of times, I reach in and do all exposed sandbed every time. The gunk that comes out is crazy.

 

Hi Kat - After a few rounds of vacuuming the small sections, I also started vacuuming the whole SB all at once and have done so for a few years now.

 

While I have noted the regular vacuuming effects on my system over a longer time frame, I'm curious if you noticed any increase in coral vigor now with the regular vacuuming vs leaving the sand bed alone? Any decrease in nuisance algae? Any other noteworthy by-products of this process?

[Nano sapiens]

I havent really vacuumed the sand for a good year i think. I have a goby that stirs it around a whole lot. He probably takes care of almost 50%. I also have a very small layer of sandin a pretty small tank. So far so good.

 

Good to hear. Gobies can be great in that they whaft detritus into the water column where it can be captured by filtration pads. If the pads are regularly cleaned, then this can be an effective way of exporting excess detritus.

[brandon429]

niQo that is understandable. the sand sifters eat some sandbed top growths in a helpful way, and their sifting action is keeping detritus literally cast into the tank so that filters or manual removal gets it. they do add whole waste pellets to the bed, as nothing really eats detritus in a tank but produces it, and their net effect is often a clean upper layer given all workings of export. anything is better than hands off, slow storage, the main approach Im pressing for change. those with special details can work around, or work preventatively as Kat posted to avoid the catch-up madness here.

 

 

 

neat to consider the power of modeling in trying to make reef tank predictions here. Architects use modeling in computers and in scale work to test load structures, get spatial sets etc

 

lab guys and gals give mice our meds in fractional doses, seek out LD50's as a model of vertebrate metabolism because the scaling holds between rats and us

 

on and on

 

so how can modeling regarding reef aquariums lend any credence here? Because tiny reef aquariums are known, verified shut the door nondebate speed capsules for what large tanks do.

 

The biology is the same among all captive reefs, and time to outcome is relative to volume, bioload, export and import details

 

that means modeling -will- reveal what these hands off sandbeds do in time, just a matter of time

 

So pro hands off crowd, post your models. Sending me a 30 gallon large nano or a 200 gallon reef example isn't the same as showing me say a 3 or 5 gallon -model- that ran past five years hands off, any claim for a larger tank can be speed-assessed by running a pico with relative stockings per gallon.

 

Why is it the only models we can draw from with considerable age here -on the smaller range which indicate long term effects faster- are doing at least some mode pressed in the thread? I say because the bigger hands off tanks simply have a slower approach time to consequence. at consequence time, we'll find them algae dealing in some way.

 

Interestingly, the oldest example you'll find of any large tank on the boards is Paul Bs tank

 

is his sandbed typical? how in depth have his cleanings been?

[Aurortpa]

So I started vacuuming and I was AB-SOOO-LUUUUTELYYYYYY APPALED at what was coming up, so much that my OCD went into overdrive and being my tank is relatively young (only about a month old so figured what's under is more nutrients than toxic) I just vacuumed it all--TWICE, lol. I only lifted the smaller rocks I have upfront, I did not take apart my entire arc to get under the two larger base rocks, can only imagine whats under there but I felt that just would be too much of a disruption for my livestock in there not so much the water quality itself.

 

Like Elizabeth94 said, my corals actually loved it. They are all actually open fuller than before everything got stirred up. All inverts and fish are happily moving about, although George my strawberry conch seems a bit disappointed haha. I ran mechanical filtration only for an hour and turned off the koralia 565 until everything got sucked up into my sponge (rinsed daily), then rinsed and also replaced my poly too jic.

 

Going forward, if all remains stable, I will probably vacuum the sand during my bi-weekly water changes. I can totally see why people would be petrified of doing this especially with older tanks. It seems daunting but it's not as difficult as it seems tho.

 

Below is a pic of the 1st vacuum and then the 2nd round I did thereafter. The 1st vacuum was so dark and scary, I thought I saw a scary clown floating around in it, which I prompted me to flush all of it down the toilet immediately.

 

It's only been like an hour but I'll definitely keep note of what's going on!

[olemanwinter]

 

You can also use a turkey baster to blow the detritus into the water column so that it's picked up by the overflows or by organisms.

 

This is what I do. I blow off the rocks and also carefully blow down into the sand just hard enough to knock the settled detritus up into the water column.

 

I also have a lot of sand dwelling inverts and micro fauna in every tank I run. That keeps sand pretty clean without any vacuuming.

[olemanwinter]

I think it's also important to consider that creatures like micro stars, dwarf ceriths and worms, etc - don't live forever. A lot of snails won't live longer than a year if lucky. Things like stars, brittle worms and pods get eaten by things like wrasses. The population numbers dwindle over time. People often set up their tanks with a nice healthy population of these creatures but after a few years how many remain? If you don't have a reproducing population of your CuC then you have to continue to purchase them over the life of the tank as they decrease. Otherwise the inevitable takes place.

 

Again, as I was saying in another thread, things don't decompose slowly enough for the tank failures that happen after 3 or 4 years to be a product of waste from year 1.

 

If you find a tank 4 years old that has the exact same inhabitants and same maintenance schedule as it did at the 6 month mark, I bet you find a healthy and thriving tank.

[fishfreak0114]

I've only vacuumed once so far but after seeing what came out I'll definitely be doing it every wc. It was disgusting. Should I move my sand bed corals and clean under them?

[metrokat]

 

Hi Kat - After a few rounds of vacuuming the small sections, I also started vacuuming the whole SB all at once and have done so for a few years now.

 

While I have noted the regular vacuuming effects on my system over a longer time frame, I'm curious if you noticed any increase in coral vigor now with the regular vacuuming vs leaving the sand bed alone? Any decrease in nuisance algae? Any other noteworthy by-products of this process?

I have urchins, batmans (scutus unguis) and a foxface so the only algae they won't touch is bryopsis, other than that I have no issues. The fox face used to eat the bryopsis when he was tiny, not so much now that's he's a big guy. Been waiting for the right season to trade him in for a smaller version.

 

Coral wise, my stuff is always happy and waving about as I feed them so often. Hard to tell if they are happier when I'm stirring the detritus. Everybody slimes so that is something I suppose.

[Aurortpa]

I've only vacuumed once so far but after seeing what came out I'll definitely be doing it every wc. It was disgusting. Should I move my sand bed corals and clean under them?

Well, I'd be careful if you haven't done it in a while--maybe a third at a time every few days. My tank has only collected a month's worth of stuff as it is only about a month old, so it was like I was doing a regular maintenance for me. I imagine if that stuff was left there longer it could go toxic.

 

I had to keep my thumb on the outflow--I would dig the vacuum tube all the way to the bottom and kinda lightly jiggle it and then let the suction go but had to quickly stop the suction with my thumb until the sand fell then continued to siphon out the little bits left in the tube column. If it were my tank, if I had a lot of coral on the floor and they were easily moved without overly disturbing them, I'd move them but I didn't disturb my RFA's because they are latched onto the floor.

[brandon429]

can you test the nitrate readings from a collection sample of the detritus water compared to reg tank water

[chlorinated]

I have a small 8 gallon nano and my sanbed is completely covered in corals. I just use a bastor to blast my rocks and my sandbed. Kicks a t ton of stuff up which then gets filtered out during my wc and filter floss. I dont run a skimmer or any other form of filtration and have zero algae issues.

[Aurortpa]

can you test the nitrate readings from a collection sample of the detritus water compared to reg tank water

Brandon429, you are right, I should have tested that vacuumed water before I flushed that nastiness down the drain! My water tested 0's across the board for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and phos in the water column but I bet that substrate gunk is off the charts. I really believe it is the source of my green algae bloom as there hasn't been anything detectable in the water column for over two weeks!

 

Would it have waned naturally? Sure perhaps...after my thousands of copepods and other microfauna consumed the nutrient source in the sand bed but that would have taken a while from the looks of it. And then what would have happened when their population waned and all the gunk got back to a level that was unmanageable by them...water quality issue I bet. I'm very happy about nutrient exporting all that stuff. I'm quite confident what microfauna I want to remain will stay in good numbers on the rock and jumping around my back chambers. I still see lots of pods caught up in my tank's turbulence and as fast as they reproduce, I'm sure they will recover.

[Aurortpa]

I have a small 8 gallon nano and my sanbed is completely covered in corals. I just use a bastor to blast my rocks and my sandbed. Kicks a t ton of stuff up which then gets filtered out during my wc and filter floss. I dont run a skimmer or any other form of filtration and have zero algae issues.

Well, I imagine equilibrium can be achieved different ways in different tanks. I wish I could just turkey baster my substrate lol, you are lucky but apparently the size, depth, and porosity of my substrate forces me to use a different method. I surmise that perhaps having smaller grained sand with a thinner depth, helps get all of that stuff in the water column quickly if you don't have a huge surface to disrupt. Even though mine is only an inch deep at best, turkey basting the sand just doesn't cut it in my tank at least, as I was doing that beforehand already.

 

I have black indigo aragonite, with varying sizes of grains with some larger ones appearing to be porous--hence every two weeks it's vacuum time for me now.