A hidden secret to stability-rinsing live sand before use, rinsing all sand

[brandon429]

When starting a tank, if you pre rinse your live sand over and over such that it cannot cloud due to silting, you reduce negative issues from your sandbed later. Todays sandbeds are a mix of stored up organic waste and extremely high surface area silt fraction mixed together, people proceed with fear as the beds age 2, 3 and 4 years (and then not many tanks are around past that due to eutrophication takedown)

 

 

Most people are under the impression rinsing a new live sandbed removes precious bacteria, we should discuss why that is not the case, and why not following the masses can yield excessively long term results

 

 

 

New tank planners, rinse your new sand so clean you can always access it later on without a cloud, save yourself mass headaches.

[brandon429]

There is already a thread on this at R2R and some very practiced aquarists have chimed in, it will be neat to compare takes on the matter between the two sites as the ideas grow.

 

I pre rinsed my own live sand in tap water fresh out of the bag, then shortly in saltwater to clear out the grains with the water it will be used to. this didn't sterilize the sand, or render it without nitrifiers. Tap isn't very lethal at all especially in short duration. the results 6 mos later is a sandbed I can reach in, pick up a handful, drop it down, and only clean grains fall to the surface.

 

If we did this on a typical sandbed, how hard would the mini cycle be? rinse.

 

the initial part of the thread is rinsing live sand before you get started...what comes next is accessing old beds for rinsing without ruining your tank.

[gulfsurfer101]

I always rinse my sandbed. After each time I've moved a tank. When I initially set up a tank. If it's done correctly you can dump it straight in to a filled tank and it will fall right to the bottom and the water should clear up in less than 20 minutes.

[AZDesertRat]

My 330 lb, 5-6" deep sand bed is 13 years old and doing just fine. Wasn't rinsed when I installed it and has never been stirred or siphoned more than 1/4" deep and everything is doing great.

The fines on the sand have the most surface area for the bacteria so why rinse and throw that away. I will stick with what I have.

[brandon429]

id counter though that in dealing with nanos, less dilution and more intake, the dynamics aren't the same. Its easy to get past 3 yrs in a tank your size with all storages going on and dilution, but three years in a nano is hard to find. finding silty problems in new nanos reefs is common, whats your take on nano specific physicalities, is the silt helping? Im not seeing nano longevity in general benefitting from hands off, in way less dilution. more hands on needed. good debate good positioning so far everyone.

 

Its truly against the grain to rinse at all, agreed. the articles and reviews around old tank syndrome seem to revolve around the sand, its not easily discounted as a cause in nanos where the overall waste holdings grow quicker

 

 

 

 

I too use a deep sand bed for 10 yrs, but handle it oppositely. having tried the hands off route in a small tank and found limitations, and then none in the hands on version, that made for a good challenge to the status quo of take on and keep all detritus.

[Nano sapiens]

id counter though that in dealing with nanos, less dilution and more intake, the dynamics aren't the same...

 

^^this. Countless reef tank experiences over the decades have shown that typically the larger the system, the less hobbyist disturbance is needed. Conversely, the smaller the system, typically the more vigorous and direct the maintenance approach if long life is to be achieved.

 

About 80% of my current 12g nano's sand is nearly 18 years old. It was prewashed (as is all the sand that I add to a tank). I've seen sand collected in the tropics and if you think it's somehow 'pristine'...think again as it defintiely has organic materials. Prewashing also allows for finding foreign objects such as fish hooks, pop-tops, plastics (not all float), WHY. Another tip is to run a magnet through the sand, first, to collect any possible ferrous metallic objects (I found a small fish hook many years ago this way).

[olemanwinter]

FWIW, I've both rinsed sand and left it unrinsed for years in tanks of all various sizes including small nanos and had no problems whatsoever with any of them. Perhaps maintaining a healthy diverse population of microfauna and sand-sifting creatures makes it a moot point. I don't know. I've come to the personal conclusion that it only matters for how fast I want the water to clear in a new tank.

 

I can't wait to read all the back and forth from 100 people posting their opinions in professorial tones as if each is the Einstein of reef keeping.

 

*grabs popcorn*

 

I like this one very much:

 

Countless reef tank experiences over the decades have shown that typically the larger the system, the less hobbyist disturbance is needed. Conversely, the smaller the system, typically the more vigorous and direct the maintenance approach if long life is to be achieved.

 

"Countless experiences". How many? - Too many to count. lol

 

So who's experiences are these and who drew conclusions from them? Well, they have just *shown* . It is presented as Priori knowledge. It is self evident. It's like math.

 

Arrogance? Check. Vague grand claims? Check.

Professorial language even at the expense of coherent sentence structure? Check.

 

Read that second sentence out loud. It's bending over so far backwards to sound impressive it practically breaks itself in half.

 

 

CARRY ON.

[MikeTR]

I just added like 12 lbs of fiji mud to my refugium..apparently I'm ####ed.

[olemanwinter]

I just added like 12 lbs of fiji mud to my refugium..apparently I'm ####ed.

 

It does wonders for the skin. Scoop it out and apply liberally on your face.

[AZDesertRat]

OK, in my 16G bowfront there is 30 lbs of Southdown, 3-4" deep that also has never been rinsed of siphoned. This tank started out as bare bottom back in 1985 or so and transitioned to DSB around 2002. Some of the softies in the tank are from the bare bottom days and the Sebae anemone is from 1992. The RBTA is from around 2002 and the clownfish are both around 13 years old.

I don't stir or mess with the DSB, don't siphon it and rarely do anything at all except feed sparingly and an lazy about water changes though I do use RO/DI at all times. Again, I will keep both of my successful systems just as they are.

If all I wanted was a decorative shallow sand bed I would rinse, stir and siphon but thats not my thing. I like a fully functioning DSB with lots of critters, worms and snails not the Sahara Desert with no life in it. I will also say neither of my systems has any mechanical filtration, socks, foams or sponges. No filters at all in the 16G and only a protein skimmer in the 100G and sometimes a small amount of carbon and GFO when things appear yellow.

[brandon429]

not a prob lol! everyone can either rinse or not rinse its easy choice, its sometimes easier to go siltless since its not helping things, and if they want to we were just showing how...you just rinse the new sand and be siltless, and emerge with your nitrifiers still there, all ok to do.

 

new sand in bag isn't bringing in the worms and life you have cultivated so we thought at least a pre-rinse was helpful, not negative. whatever actions are done to be long term are fun to experiment with for sure.

[Mariaface]

 

 

 

CARRY ON.

 

 

I don't understand why you had to deconstruct what nano's saying at all, much less quote and display it piece by piece. That wasn't arrogance. It was actual text with a lack of citations in superscript. And if you wanted sources you could've asked for them? It's a forum, not a peer reviewed journal; the hundred people chiming in with anecdotal or experimental evidence is exactly what this is about.

 

And are you not familiar with clauses? Tense/voice that isn't the present and past? Those two sentences were concise and more coherent than two thirds of what I see on the site. Nothing 'broke in half'. Chill, dude.

 

 

 

But anyway, anecdotal stuff:

I've messed with two types of sand, oolitic and 'tahitian black'. Didn't rinse either, and have since gone bare bottom. I'm firmly in the 'take care of your sand or don't use it' boat.

[Sunstar]

I have bad sand in mine... fault of me being dumb years ago. I rinse it when I go to change tanks.... try to get some excess crap out. But still the bad stuff exists. I may replace some/all of it in time. Depends. I like my sand thriving with all manner of living creatures. If the sand is alive then it can't be all bad can it? I really don't like my sugar sand...

[brandon429]

mine's the perspective im typing from comes from the tank fix threads im in, too many to count going back too far to count, others may have a different tank that came from their own tanks, or others fix threads they ventured into (post up) we should be listing that here as comparatives.

 

the sand rinsing offer here is a look back on the last 6 yrs cataloged of my online tank fixes, actions we logged. many of those should have been rinsers, the rest are the hands off crew that are doing fine not a problem.

 

 

 

my way doesn't mean a tank will die if someone doesn't use it, or that it can't live a long time.

 

my way implies that if anyone here hops into a wrecked tank thread, and advises them to keep a sandbed full of stored up detritus as a cure for any tank condition, they wont get the results they see in their own tanks

 

 

for new keepers who start their tank with rinsed live sand, you have a leg up in potential over the ones that start with silt. that doesn't mean I couldn't run a sandbed of nothing but silt...just that as a whole, your tanks benefit from it not being there until a benefit is listed.

[Nano sapiens]

FWIW, I've both rinsed sand and left it unrinsed for years in tanks of all various sizes including small nanos and had no problems whatsoever with any of them. Perhaps maintaining a healthy diverse population of microfauna and sand-sifting creatures makes it a moot point. I don't know. I've come to the personal conclusion that it only matters for how fast I want the water to clear in a new tank.

 

I can't wait to read all the back and forth from 100 people posting their opinions in professorial tones as if each is the Einstein of reef keeping.

 

*grabs popcorn*

 

I like this one very much:

 

"Countless experiences". How many? - Too many to count. lol

 

So who's experiences are these and who drew conclusions from them? Well, they have just *shown* . It is presented as Priori knowledge. It is self evident. It's like math.

 

Arrogance? Check. Vague grand claims? Check.

Professorial language even at the expense of coherent sentence structure? Check.

 

Read that second sentence out loud. It's bending over so far backwards to sound impressive it practically breaks itself in half.

 

 

CARRY ON.

 

 

I find it interesting that you would criticize someone as 'arrogant' for pointing out the obvious (IMO). Take a look at the last 10-25 years of reef keeping tank threads and you'll find that the oldest running reef tanks are typically the largest. If you dig deeper into those tank threads, you'll find that many don't disturb the sand beds much (if at all), change large quantities of water frequently nearly as much as we do in Nano tanks, etc. That's the point I was attempting to make, small tanks need more hands-on maintenance to succeed long term (talking many, many years). If you think that is all BS, I'll respect your right to disagree and I do look forward to your rebuttal.

 

Now, if you don't like my style of writing, that's fine. If you find the sentence structure incoherent, that's odd, but you are entitled to your opinion.

 

As for nano tank longevity, I believe I have something to say on the matter. Although you may believe that over 7-1/2 years with the same 12g setup is just 'dumb luck'. I don't come on here to talk about tank longevity just to keep my typing fingers in shape. The reason I even mention anything at all is that I see so many nano tanks fail after only a few short years and as a hobbyist I'd like to make a difference by posting my experiences and techniques that have contributed to my tank's long term success.

 

Back to the sand rinsing thing...

[brandon429]

Mike

 

Your mud is different than a tank full of just poo

 

 

 

its diverse, got micronutrients, wont test crazy high on nitrate (post up if it does, we can revisit its coolness lol) and has inclusions that go well beyond poo in a bed, that's what I attack lol.

 

leng sy pretty much the inventer of common reefing uses miracle mud so who can decry it. of all the thousands of wrecked tanks I work, not a one had a MM issue, mud it up man. super fine packed in mud like that stuff is tends to collect detritus on top; its easier to siphon that way preventatively, your mud can work~

[olemanwinter]

 

 

I find it interesting that you would criticize someone as 'arrogant' for pointing out the obvious (IMO).

I bet. lol.

 

Arrogance doesn't hinge on being correct or incorrect. The fact that you think it does really kind of makes my point.

 

Oh well.

[brandon429]

I simply love debate threads, this stuff moves our hobby. if it wasn't for people arguing that reefs under 15 gallons could live long term, our hobby would still be in the stone ages of all big tanks. push back is needed for any claim, hardline pushback is the greatest filter we have to test any claim. that, and giant proof threads!

[Nano sapiens]

I bet. lol.

 

Arrogance doesn't hinge on being correct or incorrect. The fact that you think it does really kind of makes my point.

 

Oh well.

 

Unfortunately, it is clear to me that continuing this conversation can not lead to anything productive.

 

Whatever you may think of my character, I do hope that your 2-1/2 month old nano tank does well over the long term...and I'll leave it at that.

[olemanwinter]

I'm not really arguing for or against anything, because I've had positive experiences across the board in regards to long-term water parameters in my tanks. But I find a flaw in the central premise of the original post.

 

To blame sand bed problems 3 or 4 years after a tank has been set up on failing to rinse the sand would mean that the dead organics took those 3 or 4 years to break down.

 

I think it's far more likely that the much bigger problem is poorly maintained sand beds continuously trapping debris as the tank ages.

 

Consider the amount of excess food, waste and deceased animals that accumulates in our relatively small closed systems over a few years. It's hard to imagine that the organics that came in the sand could even begin to compare.

 

To find unrinsed sand the culprit to "old tank syndrome" I would have to conclude that even after several years the organics that originally came with the sand are greater than the organics that have been added to the system AND that they took that long to break down to just become a problem while all along the organics added to the tank have been breaking down and not presenting a problem.

 

I suspect that many people that didn't rinse their sand also didn't maintain their bed manually or with micro-fauna and there is some coincidental blame falling on the "unwashed" sand.

 

But no matter what anyone says, and no matter how it's phrased, unless someone sets up two identical tanks and does everything the same in both for a few years with the only difference being rinsed and unrinsed sand, everything is purely anecdotal.

I do hope that your 2-1/2 month old nano tank does well over the long term.

 

You see I have a thread with a 2 month old tank and you assume it's the only tank I have and the only experience I have?

 

THANK YOU for proving my point about your arrogance. lmao

[Nano sapiens]

I'm not really arguing for or against anything, because I've had positive experiences across the board in regards to long-term water parameters in my tanks. But I find a flaw in the central premise of the original post.

 

To blame sand bed problems 3 or 4 years after a tank has been set up on failing to rinse the sand would mean that the dead organics took those 3 or 4 years to break down.

 

I think it's far more likely that the much bigger problem is poorly maintained sand beds continuously trapping debris as the tank ages.

 

Consider the amount of excess food, waste and deceased animals that accumulates in our relatively small closed systems over a few years. It's hard to imagine that the organics that came in the sand could even begin to compare.

 

To find unrinsed sand the culprit to "old tank syndrome" I would have to conclude that even after several years the organics that originally came with the sand are greater than the organics that have been added to the system AND that they took that long to break down to just become a problem while all along the organics added to the tank have been breaking down and not presenting a problem.

 

I suspect that folks that many people that didn't rinse their sand also didn't maintain their bed manually or with micro-fauna and there is some coincidental blame falling on the "dirty" sand.

 

But no matter what anyone says, and no matter how it's phrased, unless someone sets up two identical tanks and does everything the same in both for a few years with the only difference being rinsed and unrinsed sand, everything is purely anecdotal.

 

You see I have a thread with a 2 month old tank and you assume it's the only tank I have and the only experience I have?

 

THANK YOU for proving my point about your arrogance. lmao

 

LOL, jumping to conclusions, are we? I read your post that you have been in the hobby for 12 years, etc., etc., have other tanks, yada, yada. I've been in the SW hobby for over 30 years and 15 FW before that. So what?

 

I was simply pointing out that your tank is young and I hope it does well. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...

[olemanwinter]

 

LOL, jumping to conclusions, are we? I read your post that you have been in the hobby for 12 years, etc., etc., have other tanks, yada, yada. I've been in the SW hobby for over 30 years and 15 FW before that.

 

Now see, this is a teachable moment.

 

I did not brag about my time in the hobby. YOU have mentioned how long you think I've been in the hobby as a pretense to tell me how long you have been in the hobby.

 

LMAO.

 

Even as you insist you are wishing me luck you continue to double down on your arrogance. You're probably pathologically compelled to act like this.

 

It's really not a problem, because I don't actually have to deal with you in real life, but it gets tedious anyway.

 

So, by all means, reply back with your resume or maybe a picture of a diploma or something. I won't be reading or replying to you further.

[Nano sapiens]

 

I won't be reading or replying to your further.

 

Likewise. Your attempts at psychoanalysis are amusing, but not relevent to this thread's content.

 

Sorry this got derailed, Brandon.

[brandon429]

Nano S if we count my total derails listed online they go about nine fitty

 

Points need to be made anywhere, anytime IMO as the need arises.

In fact, I chose to derail some forums presenting early resistance to peroxide few yrs ago, which they had claimed was a fad, sternly, someone had to point out we had like sixty pages of proof work and their lack of 2 pages implied very little actual work behind their null claims. Having no redress for the statement led up to a skirmish, aw

 

 

 

Disc-1 and TCMAS on a side note:

You ever get around to work your algae control methods into a thread yet? It's only been like three years now...wasn't expecting anything at all really but was a fair shout out in case you had content to drawn from, holla, link right here if applicable ----> right in this space here. Our peroxide threads are doing well in case you were concerned, thanks!

B

[Beer]

Tap isn't very lethal at all especially in short duration.

In reference to bacteria, this is 100% false, unless your tap water is untreated well water (baring some chemical release that poisons your well).

 

Municipalities add chlorine, chloramine, or use MiOx systems, or a combination of chlorine and chloramine, in tap water specifically to kill bacteria. It is not selective and only kills the "bad" bacteria. It kills all bacteria. With very short dwell times. That is the sole purpose of these additions. The closer you are to the treatment facility, the higher the concentrations, unless they are using chloramine because that does not break down as rapidly as the chlorine gas and stays in the systems fairly close to the concentrations added at the treatment plant.

 

 

I question the usefulness of 'live sand' that contains no benthic life. Especially when live rock is used and the tank is allowed to sit for several weeks and establish it's self or when one of the many methods of tank cycling are used.

 

 

There are many successful methods that work for maintaining a reef of any size. Smaller tanks will see fluctuations faster and suffer the consequences faster and more drastically due to less water volume, and the typical support equipment that larger reefs are equipped with.

 

The largest issues I see with not having a large pool of long term nano reefs is that most people don't last more than 1-3 years, regardless of tank size. Listen to stories from people at fish stores or check your local Craigslist and for sale section of papers. I see it in skydiving and people I know in other sports/hobbies that note the same thing. Most people don't stick with a hobby more than a few years before they tire of it, or find something new and interesting that grabs their attention, so they move on. Unfortunately for fish tanks, this is a slow decline in attention and maintenance, which results in a crash. I'm sure not all crashes in the 3-4 year range are a result of a decline in interest, but I'd wager that a large part of it is. Most people I'm sure aren't willing to admit that they let all their fish and coral die because they didn't care enough to do the proper maintenance like they used to and we're just going through the motions.

Another factor is that those that are successful tend to either upgrade as their corals outgrow the tank (yes some keep the smaller tanks running), move somewhere they can have the large tank they always wanted, or find a different interest in the hobby and shift the focus of the tank, essentially breaking it down and rebuilding it.

Then there are those that are faced with moving, divorce if the tank is not removed from the house, eviction if the tank is not removed from the apartment, health reasons, etc.

 

 

Blaming not having lots of long term nanos on not rinsing the sand before using it or following the deep sand bed method (properly), resulting in eutrophication, ignores tons of other factors. There are not a ton of full size reef tanks that run in the 7+ year range when compared to the number of people that actually start these tanks up. The pool of nano reefs is far smaller than that of larger tanks (how many nano specific sites are there in comparison to ones for full size reef tanks?), so of course the number of long term nanos is small.

 

 

Trying to tear apart people who have opposing views that actually have tanks that counter your opinion does nothing to help your case. Unless you are trying to pull them into an argument to piss them off so that they don't return to your thread so it is only occupied by people with the same mindset.

 

Now if you were starting a conversation about the validity of rinsing sand to prevent dust storms which have a tendency to reduce sand bed maintenance for those that have shallow sand beds or have not properly set up a deep sand bed and use larger particles that tend to trap detritus and not promote the anoxic areas within the sand bed that promote denitrification, then this would be a different conversation and I think you wouldn't be seeing as many opposing views. Making blanket statements and eluding to this being the way of the future and the only way to set up a long term nano reef is a pretty big claim. You won't find many people jumping on that bandwagon as there are plenty here that have not rinsed their sand and are doing just fine.