Vacuuming substrate...yay or nay?

[Mariaface]

Brandon429, you are right, I should have tested that vacuumed water before I flushed that nastiness down the drain! My water tested 0's across the board for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, and phos in the water column but I bet that substrate gunk is off the charts. I really believe it is the source of my green algae bloom as there hasn't been anything detectable in the water column for over two weeks!

 

 

 

I'm not sure you'd have had the ability to do this, actually. The detritus itself isn't dissolved; at best, it's floating in the water column or partially broken down and therefore skimmable. Technically it's not yet free nitrates/phosphates. At worst, it reacts oddly with the chemicals involved in the tests or messes with colorimetry?

 

Now, if you left the detritus in the bucket and heated that with some circulation, then allowed it to break down quickly, you'd be able to measure out nitrates caused by the break-down in an environment where nothing can take up the nutrients..

 

...Not sure if that made actual sense.

[brandon429]

the mulm is literally a mix bacteria digesting detritus live time, some barely starting and some at the end of the digest

 

 

 

Id expect the mud to test orders higher in both nitrate and po4 compared to tank water column, just my take. if the mix was all brand new detritus emitted yesterday collectively, id agree shouldn't be leaking yet. but this is complexed with detritus months old and those should be mid rot? I see your point about some portions not being ready to add to waste, but its hard to see that bed as anything but a collectively old nitrate pump

[olemanwinter]

 

 

The detritus itself isn't dissolved; at best, it's floating in the water column or partially broken down and therefore skimmable.

 

This is central to my point in the other thread about the waste in unrinsed sand being a non-issue to tank decline 4 years later.

 

If you over feed your tank today, how long will it take for that waste to break down into the detritus you describe and from that into measurable spikes in your testing? Not very long.

 

Hard to imagine that the food you feed today breaks down into things like nitrites, nitrates, and phosphate in a matter of days yet the organics in unrinsed sand are going to cause problems a year or two or more from now.

[Nano sapiens]

the mulm is literally a mix bacteria digesting detritus live time, some barely starting and some at the end of the digest

 

 

 

Id expect the mud to test orders higher in both nitrate and po4 compared to tank water column, just my take. if the mix was all brand new detritus emitted yesterday collectively, id agree shouldn't be leaking yet. but this is complexed with detritus months old and those should be mid rot? I see your point about some portions not being ready to add to waste, but its hard to see that bed as anything but a minority in the sandbed not directly elevating all measured nutrients

 

^^ beat me to it

 

I'll take a stab at describing the differences in basic detritus particle types:

 

'Detritus' is a catch-all term used for largely organic based substrate particles. Can be 'fresh', or 'really old' material...and anything in between.

 

'Mulm' would specifically refer to old 'detritus' that tends to be largely inert. Very light and 'fluffy' stuff

 

'Mineralization' is the process through which an organic substance becomes impregnated by inorganic substances. May have started out as detrital material, but looks like fine sand grains and accumulates over time. To the best of my knowledge, this material is basically inert in our reef systems and isn't mentioned all that often.

 

As Brendon mentioned, excess detritus can lead to eutrophication (nutrient loading), but will also impede nutrient flow (carbon is of special concern) to the substrate bacteria which impedes their efficiency/effectiveness at processing nitrate.

[Aurortpa]

Well I take it I had a bunch of detritus and mulm. IMO if it flowed there apparently it is most likely leeching out somewhere. If even being leeched out at a slower rate than evidently being put in, it is leeching out nonetheless. Enough, despite my meticulous feeding routine and small bio load right now, to feed an algae bloom and huge pod population with no detectable levels in the water column. That's enough for me to feel like I should intervene.

[Chicane]

My 24 gal is now 3 years old and I've always vacumed the areas of sand bed that I can get to without moving any major rock structures and I never had any Nitrates. A little more then a year ago I introduced a frag that had some red hair algae in it and with a minimal clean up crew, it took aver all my live rock and over ran all my Zoas. After letting my tank go over the past year due to a arm injury and being discouraged by the mess, I did a huge tank over haul. I removed about 80% of the rock and the back middle area of the sand bed that haven't been touched in 3 years was almost black when I vacumed this. It was pure mud. Should I have vacumed this area, maybe not, but my sand bed is much cleaner now. This did increase my Nitrates to .20, but I have no doubt that it will come down with water changes every 5 days or so, I hope.

Should we vacume only the accessible areas and leave the impossible areas to reach alone should be the question?

[Nano sapiens]

Should we vacume only the accessible areas and leave the impossible areas to reach alone should be the question?

 

I believe that it is advantageous to also vac under the base rock, at least occasionally. Much of the detrital material is forced under these base rocks due to advection.

 

I can do this relatively easily since I have an open reef structure with just a few pieces of base rock, but I realize the difficulty with more rock intensive aquascapes. I do one base rock about every 2 months on a rotational basis and the amount of detritus I vac out is extensive, to say the least.

[Hammerstone]

By moving large rocks don't you risk crashing your tank with whatever comes out of there?

[Nano sapiens]

By moving large rocks don't you risk crashing your tank with whatever comes out of there?

 

Just don't move them all, all at once (this is assuming that the tank has multiple pieces of base rock). Vacuuming under only just one base rock every month or two should be fine in all but perhaps the most extremely dirty/rotten substrate situations. I'd suggest attempting to suck up most of the detrital cloud that typically forms when vacuuming a substrate, too

[olemanwinter]

Alternatively you can maintain creatures in your tank that will clean under the rocks for you ...if that's your thing.

[Hammerstone]

I've got Lots of Bristle worms and pods?

[Aurortpa]

Well, like an addict, I got up and checked my tank first thing...lol

 

Besides one of my RFA's wandering to the top of the rock he was by, nothing has changed in the tank. I still see pods swimming around and parameters are stable.

 

Most of all, my substrate looks clean lol.

[brandon429]

Pics if poss! Nice going

[Aurortpa]

See, all clean down here folks!

[chlorinated]

I have crushed coral, no sand, But seems to work for me. Dont fix whats not broken i guess

[Chicane]

Here's a great thread, plus other threads within.

http://www.reef2reef.com/threads/ammonia-and-nitrate-problem-persisting.231126/