Palytoxin...The issue has come up many-a-time

[onthefly]

He sold it too. He was kinda leaning up against the desk, arms crossed, and kinda "scanning" the room as he said it.

 

I had seen him walking on campus with his cane....dude was faster than some of us lazy ass seniors

[onthefly]

Another nasty toxin......alpha-amanitin

 

Don't eat the wrong mushroom or you'll be on a liver transplant list

[Caesar777]

There are all kinds of mushrooms with bad stuff in them. Heck, you should know, as we're in the Pacific Northwest.... There are occasionally news reports of shroomers eating the wrong type--since they can look similar to each other, and many drug users seem to be kinda stupid --and the thing is that it can take awhile before you actually feel poisoned, and by then it's too late.

[onthefly]

Yup! The entire amanitina family of shrooms will do you in!

 

My father in-law was shrooming in germany years ago and picked some...."swore" they were the right type...made this huge dinner and invited people over....they tasted like iodine! He ran down to his buddies house who said he picked a "bad" one, but it was one of the few "bad ones" that just taste bad. I thiink he stopped shrooming after that:)

[Caesar777]

Hehe... Iodine, wow. Sounds familiar, for some reason. Frankly, the folks I knew would occasionally pick but usually just grew their own. Safer that way, even though a couple just weren't he smartest and there was probably contamination going on, heh. Oh well. That one moved to SanFran, anyway..."Spread his love" there.

[Ickypimp]

Sorry to resurrect this long dead in the water thread but having read it all i feel compelled to add my 2 cents

 

The bodies reaction to palytoxin is Ig-E mediated causes prolific mast cell degranulation thus huge amounts of histamine will be produced.

 

The effects of histamine to name but a few are vasodilation (decreasing BP), to increase permeability of the blood vessels(decreasing BP), causes anaphalaxis, Symptoms of anaphylaxis include a sense of warmth, flushing, itching, hives (which can occur alone, that is, without progression to anaphylaxis) , swelling in the throat, asthma or wheezing, light-headedness from low blood pressure, tachycardia due to low blood pressure, irregular heart rhythm , nausea or vomiting, abdominal cramping, headaches or shock . Anaphylaxis can result in death.

 

Tt has been shown that large amounts of histamine can cause a condition known as hyperkalemia, a shift in potassium homeostasis (probably caused by the change in cell permeablilty), a condition that manifests itself by increasing the size of the T-wave of an ECG

 

Any of that sound familiar?? just as a refresher...

 

symptoms of palytoxin poisoning..

 

Angina-like chest pains;

asthma-like breathing difficulties;

tachycardia (racing pulse);

unstable blood pressure with episodes of low blood pressure;

hemolysis;

electrocardiograms show and exagerrated T wave.

 

Seeing any similarities there ??

 

Benadryl or 2-(Diphenylmethoxy)-N,N-dimethylethylamine hydrochloride is an ANTIHISTAMINE, a drug that blocks the H-1 receptor and reduces the symptoms of the effect of histamine...

 

HMMM so tell me please why would taking Benadryl do nothing ??

[MrAnderson]

The bodies reaction to palytoxin is Ig-E mediated causes prolific mast cell degranulation thus huge amounts of histamine will be produced.

 

Haven't heard that before. My understanding is that palytoxin binds Na/K pumps and messes up cell membrane ion pumps. In cardiac muscle this is a catastrophic failure.

 

What you've described above is a plain old allergic reaction, and it's possible that one could be allergic to palytoxin, however that would mean you were previously exposed to it. What you're also suggesting is that benadryl or a shot from an epi-pen would cure palytoxin poisoning.

 

I also suppose it's possible that the mast cell surface IgEs could become cross linked by palytoxin binding at points other than the variable region, but then that would mean that it should bind other antibody isotypes in similar regions, given that the only difference between Igs is the effector (A, D, G, M, E) region.

 

PNAS article on palytoxin regarding molecular mechanism. I've checked numerous articles referenced here and elsewhere and can't find anything about an IgE-mediated mechanism for palytoxin. Hook me up, I'm tired of looking.

[MrAnderson]

I found the summary I was looking for. Ickypimp, you should write up your new IgE data before you get scooped, apparently you're onto something new!!

 

Palytoxin. Recent electrophysiological and pharmacological evidence for several mechanisms of action

 

Christian Frelin and Catherine Van Renterghem

 

Institut de Pharmacologie Moléculaire et Cellulaire du CNRS, Université de Nice-Sophia Antipolis, 660 route des Lucioles, 06560, Valbonne, France [Tel: (33) 93 95 7755; Fax: (33) 93 95 77 08]

 

Received 24 March 1994. Available online 27 January 2000.

 

Abstract

 

1. 1. Palytoxin is one of the most potent toxins known so far. It acts as an haemolysin and alters the functioning of excitable cells.

2. 2. A primary action of palytoxin in excitable cells is to induce the activity of a small conductance (9–25 pS), non-selective cationic channel which then triggers secondary activations of voltage dependent Ca2+ channels and of Na+/Ca2+ exchange. This results in neurotransmitter release by nerve terminals and contractions of striated and smooth muscle cells.

3. 3. Palytoxin induced channels are blocked by amiloride derivatives such as 3,4 dichlorobenzamil. They are also blocked by ouabain but at concentrations higher than those required to inhibit the (Na+,K+) ATPase.

4. 4. A second and independent action of palytoxin is to open a membrane conductive pathway for H+ that drives H+ inside the cells and secondarily activates Na+/H+ exchange activity.

5. 5. A third action of PTX in chick cardiomyocytes is to raise [Ca2+]i in a manner independent of its depolarizing action or of its action on intracellular pH.

6. 6. It is suggested that PTX probably has more than one site of action in excitable cells and that it may act as an agonist for a family of low conductance channels that conduct Na+/K+, H+ and Ca2+ions.

 

General Pharmacology: The Vascular System

Volume 26, Issue 1 , January 1995, Pages 33-37

[Ickypimp]

Hey MrAnderson..

 

Dont get me wrong, i am not suggesting that the only toxicological effect of palytoxin is this one, however i do feel it is significant..

 

the parralels between the symptoms of a paly poisoniong and severe anaphalaxsis are profound

 

I would argue "plain old" allergic reaction...

[MrAnderson]

Hey MrAnderson..

 

Dont get me wrong, i am not suggesting that the only toxicological effect of palytoxin is this one, however i do feel it is significant..

 

That's fine, but could you please substantiate your original claim somehow, to bring it out of the category of conjecture? You dragged this tired old horse out for a ride, saying that Benadryl would be beneficial in the case of palytoxin poisoning. I can't find any clinical or scientific evidence of IgE involvement, and apparently you did. Please provide something in the way of information.

 

To delve a little deeper, some would argue that minor exposure to palytoxin can be deadly. If this is true (and the LD50 suggests it is) then how would one's body make an IgE specific for palytoxin? As I said, this could happen only if one has been previously exposed to palytoxin. As I'm sure you're aware, an organism cannot raise an antibody speciific for an antigen it has never been exposed to. Otherwise your mechanism would define palytoxin as a "superantigen", or an antigen which binds antibodies nonspecifically in an area of the antibody molecule outside of the variable region which determines antigen specificity. Anaphylaxis would be the least of your worries if this were the case, in addition to ionophore disruption.

 

There are tons of examples where symptoms of one ailment mimics another, even if by different mechanisms.

 

And yes, anaphylaxis is a "plain old allergic reaction", albeit one taken to completion. The mechanism underlying anaphylaxis the same as hay fever.

[Caesar777]

I think he implied allergic reaction to something ELSE, not to the Palytoxin. I couldn't see a minor poisoning from *the most potent toxin in the world*...

[MrAnderson]

no, he specifically says it's in reaction to the palytoxin itself

 

The bodies reaction to palytoxin is Ig-E mediated causes prolific mast cell degranulation thus huge amounts of histamine will be produced.

 

then he claims it's a significant tertiary or further effect of poisoning

 

Dont get me wrong, i am not suggesting that the only toxicological effect of palytoxin is this one, however i do feel it is significant..

[Caesar777]

Missed that part.

[MrAnderson]

Missed that part.

 

Don't get me wrong either. It's an interesting idea and given all the stereogenic centers it's entirely possible for some combination of spin on the carbon chain could produce a superantigen. I've learned that incredibly unexpected permutations are possible in molecular bio. It's just that I would like to hear where he got the idea from.

 

I also think that it's possible for your idea of allergy rather than poisoning to be the culprit in many of these cases. Our original scism, Flo, was over ACblinky's case, and I think your idea is probably right on, generally speaking. So, I hope no hard feelings persist over that. I tend to play a little rough at work, so it's carried over into scientific discussions here as well. No disrespect intended.

[onthefly]

The bodies reaction to palytoxin is Ig-E mediated

 

I totally agree with Neo here. An IgE response would mean prior exposure!!! With such a low LD50, prior exposure is not really an option

 

It is my understanding that an IgM resonse would be seen for an initial exposure, followed by IgE.....is that right Neo, you're the immunologist. I just slept at a Holiday Inn last night

[Caesar777]

I believe that the allergic reaction would be to something else, since corals produce highly allergenic compounds all the time. I agree that such a potent toxin would be rare to be exposed to--enough to create antibodies--without just dying from it!

 

No prob. Group hug! Hehe.

 

Anyway, you're right--self-medication wasn't what I meant to "prescribe", as it's an awful idea in any case. It kinda got stretched farther than it should have. Oh well.

[MillerLite]

Hey folks,

 

Interesting thread. You see this very topic pop up every now and then, and in each case it usually becomes a hotly contested, polarized debate.

 

However, lets all not forget the basic rule or toxicology: "Its the dose that makes the poison" In the absence of an allergic reaction, the ADME characteristics of each of the toxins becomes critical to diagnosing and treating toxin exposure. What was the route of exposure, what is the blood plasma concentration, how readily is the toxin metabolised, and excreted...blah blah blah. One can die from drinking plain ol'water, if you get enough of it...

 

I agree with those that might dispute the whole benadryl. Those with allergies know that taking over over-the-counter meds can be like taking down a fierce lion with a swift punch to the nose. Its no where near potent enough for any toxin, once that toxin has entered the blood stream and activated potentially lethal immune mediated mast cell release of histamines and other cytokines (if this is a significant cause of death from this particular toxin).

 

That said, I think that potentially, and unknowingly, the whole reef community is at risk for exposure to some toxin sooner or later, whether it be in the corals, parasites, worms, fish, etc that we seem to buy and place in our tanks everyday. Few people and fewer respectable laboratories are doing the quality research that is needed to make sure that the more dangerous species are not finding their way into our reefs. New species of inverts and fish are making their way into the hobby all the time.

 

So let the foolish be warned, those who choose not to try to protect themselves. Just because YOU have never heard of anyone returning home from vegas with a bug they caught visiting the Bunny Ranch, would you risk walking through the door without your lucky pack? Why take the chance?

 

I recommend you protect yourselves everytime. You could also be one of those unlucky ones who just might be allergic to something living in your tank....

[Caesar777]

Benadryl will do NOTHING to protect you from poisoning... It's for solely for allergies.Just to note, in case that wasn't clear.

[onthefly]

Just because YOU have never heard of anyone returning home from vegas with a bug they caught visiting the Bunny Ranch, would you risk walking through the door without your lucky pack?

 

Well done ML for the very first Bunny Ranch reference on NR!!

[MillerLite]

HA! HA! Sorry about that. Just returned home from Vegas a few months ago after having yet another great time in Sin City. My friend had a choice of Lasik eye surgery or a wild night at the bunny ranch. As he was in grad school, he didnt have money for both. He ultimately decided for the Lasik but damn if he didnt spend a few days mulling it over, trying to decide...LMAO!!!!

 

Sorry not related to nano-reefing, thought I would apologize for any I may have offended with the reference!

[Caesar777]

They supposedly test all their "bunnies" for "bugs", but I wouldn't trust it... Call me crazy.