Palytoxin...The issue has come up many-a-time

[Caesar777]

No no, see, I said to HAVE Benadryl on hand (ready to take, not take it) because when you call 911 it's what they generally tell you to take. I've heard from at least three different people who've had this type of thing happening--odd symptoms, tank-related--and they were told to take it. None I've talked to hadn't been told to do so.

 

Either way... Many of the creatures in our tanks are HIGHLY allergenic, and, in fact, it hasn't been proven that ANY can poison us, but HAS been proven that many DO cause mild to life-threatening allergic reactions...Hence the Benadryl. Again, wow...HAVE IT ON HAND, CALL 911. I can't spell things out any further for you...

[Caesar777]

You diagree? YOU'RE the physician, not me. You know darn well about the allergenic nature of our corals--ALL, not just zoas.

 

Lgreen, you've mentioned the "placebo effect" reactions as well.

[Caesar777]

Besides, if Palytoxin was found in deadly amounts in zoanthids, then why hasn't it been done? Took 11 years to try the Palythoa toxica; wouldn't someone have thought to try zoanthids? P.S., zoanthus and palythoa are two completely different groups.

[MrAnderson]

At least i got that right.

 

See, Flo, I gotchur back.

[Caesar777]

You're a strange one.

[Caesar777]

I just have to post this in bold.

 

No no, see, I said to HAVE Benadryl on hand (ready to take, not take it) because when you call 911 it's what they generally tell you to take.....HAVE IT ON HAND, CALL 911." As in, they'll want you to take some, possibly, so have some ready to take IF they tell you to do so!

 

Sheesh.

[MrAnderson]

Originally posted by CGNano

Why would you take Benadryl for poisoning?

Originally posted by MrAnderson

From reading this and other threads, I gather that Flo's position is that because she believes the toxin is found in only one rare species, palytoxin poisoning is practically nonexistent in our hobby; ergo the reported episodes are psychosomatically-triggered (or true) allergic events, or in the "other" checkbox, but not poisoning.

 

I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong.

 

see i stuck up for you

 

Originally posted by Caesar777

*I* told her to see a doctor, dum-dum. YOU claimed to know everything, along with your wife, the nurse, who has "seen it a million times"...

even though you insult me and my wife... like water on a duck, child.

[Caesar777]

I didn't insult anyone, actually. All I said was that you claimed that you and your wife both have so much experience with it, when you just DON'T. I just added the nurse part not as an insult--it's a great career; I was planning to be an RN at one point--but how would she have such detailed experience in it? That's all...

[MrAnderson]

Your memory fails you, and you're picking a fight over a false remembrance. I never claimed that me or my wife had any experience with, or knowledge of, palytoxin. Where do you get this from?

 

Be my guest and prove me wrong. All my posts are still there, why the trash-talk?

[icenine]

"ergo the reported episodes are psychosomatically-triggered (or true) allergic events, or in the "other" checkbox, but not poisoning"

 

Probably very true...

 

I went to the ER in the early stages of setting up my tank. I did a lot of looking into and talked a few doctors into looking into the possibilty of poisoning during that episode and what happened to me was a reaction to bristleworm contact and not palytoxin poisoning for sure. I have since handled zoas and lots of other stuff in my tank since then without any protection (yes, I never learn nothin) although not the polyps that were there at the time of the event that sent me to the ER, without the same effects. (those polyps were hitchikers on the wild uncured liverock I use, I never knew what they really were)

 

I've seen several other accounts of "poisoning"... most of them look like something other than.

However I have figured out if you are suffering from palytoxin poisoning and seek emergancy treatment, unless you are in a tropical coastal area you are SOL, no one in an ER will have a clue as to what to do with you.

[lgreen]

wow this got fun while I ate a late dinner.

 

mranderson are you a physician?

 

So anyway, I think caeser is right in saying that the whole palytoxin thing is a little over exagerated. (it is totally possible, but just horribly exagerated) That's pretty much like the only reef related injury anyone talks about. Therefore when some one get injured in their tank, they automatically assume that it must be palytoxin poisoning. However, in most cases I think people are actually mistaken. Instead most likely they are having some type of histimine response to an allergen or receive infection from contact with some pathogenic agent or bacteria.

 

For example, I would imagine some of you saw this. There was a thread on RC about some guy who claimed to have been poisened by palytoxin. He showed pictures of his thumb all swollen up and bruised, to the point it was begining to turn wierd colors and split. He claimed that the doctor diagnosed it as palytoxin poisoning. He also mentioned that he had open wounds on his thumb. In this case I really don't think palytoxin was the cause. Maybe I am wrong, but based on my limited knowledge of pathology, I don't see that type of inflammatory response happening from a toxin. Based on the pictures, his injuries seemed more consistent with a bacterial infection or allergy. I could be wrong though, but just didn't seem like palytoxin to me based on the symptoms. I don't think he mentioned any symptoms related to cardiovascular or respiratory stuff.

 

The only website I could find with medical info on palytoxin suggested that symptoms of poisoning included angina like cheast pain, asthma like breathing trouble, tachycardia, unstable BP, hemolyses, and abornmal exagerated T wave on the electrocardiogram. So at this point, if the person claiming palytoxin doesn't have these symptoms or other poisoning symptoms (sickness, dizzyness, etc), then my guess is they don't have palytoxin poisoning. Im not an MD though, so this is just my speculation based on my limited knowledge.

 

Anyway though, I would really suggest that everyone stay away from recommending any types of medications/drugs for any reef injury unless you have M.D. or at least P.A. behind your name. Sometimes people will take a friendly suggestion over a trip to the hospital to save time and money. Recommending the wrong drug though can be very dangerous, and recommending the right drug, with out proper considerations of other things that might be going on, can be very dangerous.

[Caesar777]

Good point. But I said a thousand times to CALL 911 before anything else, even if the symptoms don't seem too severe.

 

MrA... Are we still going on about this? :|

[MrAnderson]

ell: I'm an Immunologist, but a research scientist not a clinician.

 

I too believe that Flo may be right, and that the palytoxin thing is unlikely, particularly when Zoanthus is the genus in question.

 

However, from my limited medical knowledge I have a strong feelings about self-diagnosis and self-medication.

 

Flo, I heard you a million times, but I really don't believe that any responsible 911 operator will indicate any medication over the phone unless they think that you know for sure that you are having an allergic reaction. If that's the case, then you have self-diagnosed, and self-medicated by proxy.

 

There's no need to get so nasty about this.

[6V6]

Originally posted by Caesar777

You're a strange one.

 

People who live in glass houses should not......

[onthefly]

"suffering from payltoxin" with an LD50 of ~4ug/human (this was not represented well in article)....by the time you're exhibiting symptoms, better sign your will.

 

Palytoxin should be the least of our worries.....

 

LG is making reference to SeanT's "another dangerous tank" thread. That is a perfect example of a opportunistic organism (probably mycobacterium sp. or vibro sp.) that pretty much took a chomp outta Sean's thumb in less than 24hr. These things are horrible to diagnose, even harder culture, and once you get an idea of what's going on, you're looking at some necrosis ...and as I remember it was a slight break in the skin near his cuticle, not an open sore that was believed to be the route.

 

There are some "nasties" that can lurk in our tanks....toxins and bacteria primarily. Virus' are too species specific and unless your swimming in your tank protozoa infections are unlikely.

 

Unless you present with shortness of breath, itching, tightness in your throat, difficulty swallowing, etc. I say keep the benadryl in the medicine cabinet. You probably do more good by ####ing on your hand

[lgreen]

oops my bad.

 

wrong thread acutally. SeanT wasn't claimming palytoxin. must of got that one mixed up with a different thread.

 

but i have seen lots of people say they had palytoxin poisoning when they had no symptoms of it, and clearly symptoms of something else.

 

i like the word necrosis. (so i added it to the nano-reef glossary for fun about 2 weeks ago HA HA, see if you can find the other hidden pathology words )

[onthefly]

Ohhhhhh.......I love games!

[Caesar777]

I dunno... When it comes to THE MOST POTENT TOXIN ON THE PLANET, can you get "a little poisoned"? A blue-ring octopus can kill you in about 3-5 minutes, a fer-de-lance in ten, and they're not even the most toxic animals out there, besides Palythoa toxica. Seems to me that if you were poisoned by such a potent toxin, you'd be gone in the blink of an eye. Not literally, but surely before you could explain anything to the 911 operator, and certainly before the ambulance would get there. Those mycotoxins are nevertheless another risk, as are allergic reactions, both of which can be life-threatening.

[lgreen]

Well you may not receive a lethal dose. Perhaps you are only exposed to 1 mg/ml of palytoxin, then you may just have cardiorespiratory distress, but it may not be enough to actually result in myocardio necrosis.

 

also depends on dose and distribution time of toxin/venom.

 

 

still a lot of the time i think people have symptoms that may be similar even to palytoxin poisoning, but still it is not that. Classically those claiming palytoxin poisoing seem mainly to complain of dizzyness and breathing trouble. It totally could just be an allergic response though to something else. I know for exampe, that I am horribly allergic to corn pollen and if I touch it or inhale it, my chest tightens up and breathing problems begin.

 

also w/ palytoxin, 4-5 mg/ml for death is just a calculated average (and really just a calculated estimate, I believe based on animal studies). It may take a little more or little less depending on age, size, and overall health.

[Caesar777]

Another excellent point. (Two, really, heh.)

 

I hate your sig--it nauseates me. :x

[lgreen]

Originally posted by Caesar777

 

I hate your sig--it nauseates me. :x

 

Thanks

 

I try hard.

 

I've only had it for a like a week, but it's getting a little old already. Hopefully one of my professors will say something absolutley rediculous in the next few days.

 

actually my physiology professor today did mention, during a discussion of adjusting breathing to altitued, that Lance Armstrong is able to adapt very well to changing altitudes, but his method involves syringes :D:D (oh! burn). Good stuff.

[Caesar777]

Hehe! It's funny, it just makes me sick.

 

I enjoy wacky professors.

[Ickypimp]

I had an embryology prof who when trying to teach us about Rana (frog) embryos (they have 3 'bits' animal pole, vegatative pole and the gray cresant which sepperates the 2)

 

he said ".... its like my wifes trifle... but then, you wouldnt have tried my wifes trifle ... or have you ??"

 

:confused:

[onthefly]

I had a biochem prof at UC Davis....who on the first day of class was sitting on the desk in front of the class, and when it was time said, "Hi, I'm Dr. Himaland....by a show of hands....how many of you know that I'm blind?" As people raised there hands he bust out laughling...."I love doing that!"

 

Pretty amazing, the guy taught protein structure/function and was blind!

[lgreen]

lol, that is hilarious! it would funny to do that even if you weren't blind! (it would be a quick way to find who the brownnosers and conformists are)

 

wow that it pretty cool!