Palytoxin...The issue has come up many-a-time

[lgreen]

oops mistake. should have said:

 

At least I couldn't find any literature saying so, but I guess if anyone sees anything, let me know.

 

not that it makes any difference.

 

if you look at wwm, calfo is also quite the palytoxin hypochondriac.

 

funny.

[adinsxq]

Originally posted by Caesar777

Hehe... So many people think they KNOW so much about palytoxin (coughmrandersoncough) when NOBODY knows much at all about it; certainly very little info other than the concrete findings above is known for sure.

 

palytoxin has been synthesized in the lab. i believe it still holds the record as the most complex molecule reproduced so far.

[oogie]

Originally posted by adinsxq

palytoxin has been synthesized in the lab. i believe it still holds the record as the most complex molecule reproduced so far.

 

WOW, sounds smart!

[Caesar777]

Yup...

 

"Following the isolation of the crude toxin by Scheuer (reported in Science (1971) 172, p.495), it was nearly 11 years before the correct structure was unraveled... Prof. Yo######o Kishi at Harvard University decided to try the complete chemical synthesis of the Palytoxin molecule. This monumental task was completed in 1989.

 

"The Palytoxin molecule has the longest contiguous chain of carbon atoms known to exist in a natural product(115).The molecule has the formula C129H223N3O54 and contains 64 stereogenic centers. Adding this with the double bonds that can exhibit cis/trans isomerism means that Palytoxin can have more than one sextillion(1021) stereoisomers! This staggering molecular complexity should indicate the difficult nature of designing a stereocontrolled synthetic strategy that will produce just the one correct (natural) stereocenter out of >1021 possible stereoisomers (Kishi did)."

[adinsxq]

oh did you already say that? i honestly don't read threads anymore.

 

have a flower

[yoshiod9]

I just think it is funny Borneman would make such a huge claim, yet provide no scientific evidence that all zoos/paly have the palytoxin. At least I could find any literature saying so, but I guess if anyone sees anything, let me know.

 

borneman does this all the time. for example, in the famous 'can you overskim' debate, many people cite an essay written by borneman in which he makes heavy claims that protein skimming can take out more than what it should. any science to back it up? no. same thing with calfo, he made a claim on rc that using eggcrate will increase the light output from your lighting by 20-25%. his source? a friend who did the 'study' (probably without blinds or any other fail safe methods).

 

grrr...silly 'pro' aquarists.

[lgreen]

lol

 

they may be good reefers/aquarists, but they are horrible scientists.

 

If they want to play with the big boys, they better learn how to cite their literature and conduct an experiment. They may be popular, but just because it comes out of their mouth doesn't make it true or good science.

 

now dr. Ron Shimeck, (sorry if i butchered the spelling) is a real scientist.

[lgreen]

also

 

borneman claims that palytoxin occurs in ALL zoos.

 

this statement is bogus because last time i checked there where three major groups right now: zoanthus, palythoa, and protopalythoa and he makes a statement which doesn't specify what he is talking about. Either that or he thinks all anthozoans are zoos.

 

and from what I have read so far, all the lit has only talked about the palytoxin being in palythoa species. And not saying it isn't possible, but again, he doesn't know what he is talking about. I know if I made claims like that in a scientific paper with no proof I would get an F on the paper.

[adinsxq]

i thought ron's bioassay was silly

[lgreen]

adin

 

which one?

[Caesar777]

Adin - Just pointing it out in further detail.

[onthefly]

Well caesar......Since the source of the toxin is unknown, and we agree that dart frogs in the wild "ARE" toxic. My analogy still stands 100%.....One frog is deadly, then other not so! My point being, not all are deadly and group labels don't apply.

 

Example for the frog lovers:

Palythoa = terriblis

Zoa's = tinctoris

 

Egg crate increasing light intensity.....Gawd, I'm in a debate over at RC right now about that stuff.

[yoshiod9]

i saw, otf...it got too technical for me (being an english geek and all) but i still can't see how eggcrate can 'increase light output by 20-25%'. lol. craaaaaazzzzzyyyyy.

[onthefly]

Well, I just noticed that someone mentioned "reflective" egg crate (basically mirrored). In that case, the egg crate would act like a poor-man lumenarc by directing light back into the tank.

 

But I'm with you.....unless it is a glass lens, I don't see how intensity is increased.

[Caesar777]

My bad, I read "deadly" and interpreted "naturally toxic". Gotcha--perfect analogy. (Though, for the record, it's from the myriad of insects they eat.)

[CGNano]

I think the Hawaiian superstious part of this story, is yet another way of the natives keeping tourists from taking things from the beautiful land we call Hawaii.

 

Just like the bad luck many tourists get from taking shells, ash, lava rock, or anything from the island where Madame Pele was supposed to have lived.

 

On the toxin side....

 

I think that the toxin is in the Zooanthids in varying amounts, just as Flo described about the Poison Dart Frogs.

[CGNano]

And about Bourneman, i'm considering his "Scientific Literature" to be quite untrue. From what i've read from this "Scientist" he can't back up what he claims.

[MrAnderson]

Originally posted by Caesar777

Hehe... This:

So many people think they KNOW so much about palytoxin (coughmrandersoncough)  

 

hehe. damn caesar, you still annoyed bc i told blinky to see a doctor instead of listening to you?

 

i never claimed to know squat about palytoxin. and i still don't.

[Caesar777]

*I* told her to see a doctor, dum-dum. YOU claimed to know everything, along with your wife, the nurse, who has "seen it a million times"... (Derr, not going back to that thread to find a direct quote...Let's leave that thread dead!)

[CGNano]

I know this is sorta a Hypocritical statement coming from me, but can we please not start a fight?

[MrAnderson]

hehe, I'll take that as a yes

 

You told her to take benadryl. I told her see a doctor. You said benadryl can't possibly do any harm, I differed.

 

My wife's a doctor (anesthesiologist). Pretty diesel one, I must say. She's done transplants, conjoined twins, etc.

[lgreen]

Hello Caeser777, what's happening? We need to talk about one of your posts. Yeah. Uh, did you get that memo? Yeah. It's just that we're were not using antihistamines to treat potential neurotoxic poisonings . So if you could just remember that from now on and perhaps recommend vasodilators and maybe O2 instead, that'd be greattttt. Thhhannnks.

 

(ha ha, jk)

 

you two need a nano-reef restraining order

[CGNano]

Why would you take Benadryl for poisoning?

[MrAnderson]

she started it

[MrAnderson]

Originally posted by CGNano

Why would you take Benadryl for poisoning?

 

From reading this and other threads, I gather that Flo's position is that because she believes the toxin is found in only one rare species, palytoxin poisoning is practically nonexistent in our hobby; ergo the reported episodes are psychosomatically-triggered (or true) allergic events, or in the "other" checkbox, but not poisoning.

 

I'm sure she'll correct me if I'm wrong.