Dream Lighting Systems

[mcarroll]

4 hours ago, pokerdobe said:

coverage and uniformity of light.

On a functional level, these are user errors (or even coincidence) more than they are a technology limitations. 👍

 

Look back over the history on every lighting tech and each one has gone through a similar phase where folks have to figure out how to make them work best.  I've been watching since the T12 days.

 

FYI, look at LED fixtures outside our hobby to see better LED-based T5 clones (I have some that are practically indistinguishable), if T5 is really your thing.  Not sure why we don't see those types inside the hobby.  Wouldn't be a problem to DIY something similar though.

 

IMO "dead light" (eg. T5, strip-LED's) does a good job of simulating deep water lighting were the interaction of direct sunlight is minimal or not at all.   These are very low-light areas though...where eventually the light is completely directionless from being reflected and refracted through so much water and particulate.  The water at this depth literally glows blue.

 

"Dynamic light" such as halide and spotlight-LED fixtures like yours and Kessils do a better job of simulating upper depths where the direct sunlight and even waves still cause lots of dynamic lighting effects.  Check out this article on "flicker light effects".

 

And in fairness to the discussion, Kessil is a very very competent "in between" choice for most tanks.  Properly deployed they can give a surprisingly similar look to T5....or provide plenty of dynamic effects.  They are fairly unlike a typical LED spotlight...most are equipped with fairly narrow (by comparison) lenses like 90º or even smaller.  Kessil's emitter setup is fairly unique and (by default) very wide by comparison.  I've seen 140º thrown around.

 

4 hours ago, Coolbreeze said:

pricing of corals now a days seem to be very high and can be costly if you did not purchase the correct hardware.

Agree 100% on pricing (but would suggest to stay away from corals that seem expensive to you).

 

But disagree 100% on the "correct hardware" idea.  Any one of the ideas you mentioned could be fine....none are incorrect.

 

5 hours ago, Coolbreeze said:

That is correct. Thank you for clarifying that for me.

Then I'm a little surprised EcoTech just left you hanging with three marginal fixtures.  They can't sell you a replacement power supply or something???

 

Don't blame that experience on other LED brands is all I can tell you.  I'd almost want to write a letter to see if you could get a better response.

 

4 hours ago, farkwar said:

There is something to the hypothesis that different wavelengths can produce different actual pigmentation/coloring of your corals

 

There is something also to the hypothesis that providing UV and near UV can not only bring out existing fluorescence

 

But also increases the fluorescent "pigments" in the coral

 

Mere growth is not the only goal or endeavor for many coral keepers

 

Of course UV is cytotoxic. The dose makes the poison

Conjecture, but there is certainly room for experimentation!!

 

A typical hobbyist tank like this (or mine) is probably not the venue where those experiments will meaningfully take place tho.  Look at Dana Riddle's work and how he does his experiments for a guide/model.  Not a typical hobbyist.

 

As @jservedio said:

8 hours ago, jservedio said:

They are all perfectly capable of maximizing color and growth and none will leave your corals wanting for light and it all comes down to your personal preference for how you want your lighting to look.

I agree.

 

 

[5*Chris]

10 hours ago, jservedio said:

That's not really true anymore - the major vendors and aquaculture facilities using artificial lighting are using LED because it's significantly cheaper from an energy, cooling, and maintenance standpoint and a large number of aquaculture facilities simply use sunlight. While T5s are pretty standard for hobbyists, they aren't industry standard and haven't been for quite a while.

 

I would argue that aesthetics and usability features are really the only things that matter when it comes to buying higher-end lights. They are all perfectly capable of maximizing color and growth and none will leave your corals wanting for light and it all comes down to your personal preference for how you want your lighting to look.

Sorry but industry to me doesn't just include major vendors and aquaculture facilities. I've also already agreed that leds are cheaper when it comes to operating costs. And your arguement for aesthetics and usability is your preference, not all people, including myself, do. 

 

Again I don't prefer T5s over led or vice versa. I've already stated what I look for in lighting, which are my personal preference and doesn't include how my setup my looks (though my setup is beautiful 😁). The things I love most about T5s can easily be replicated by led bars, which I also run. But again I got a killer deal on my hybrid Sunpower, my corals are happy, why would I change? 

 

For what it's worth, if I were to redo my lighting setup, I'd do all led bars on timers, nothing fancy, I try to keep things simple. 

[Reefkid88]

@mcarroll Building a led light for a DSA 105 or a Red Sea Nano or even a 20g tank,for the cost of t5 bulbs is an insane statement. 

 

 Maybe for a 5g or pico. Using brand new parts,just the BlueFish is $100..4 24w t5 bulbs is another $100. 

 

 

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, Reefkid88 said:

@mcarroll Building a led light for a DSA 105 or a Red Sea Nano or even a 20g tank,for the cost of t5 bulbs is an insane statement. 

LED's can be insanely cheap.  🤯  I can't help that.  😇

 

Blame @TinyGiant if you need someone to blame.  It's his basic design pattern.  😉 (look up his thread)

 

1 bulb every 2 inches (minus one to get an odd number) across the top of the 20G.  Bulbs cost from $1-$5...a little more if you're really into it and do custom bulbs.  Sockets cost 50-100¢.

 

Assuming your tank is a 20L (30" long) then that would be 14 bulbs and sockets.  Add in some wiring and your choice of up cycled or DIY'd base fixture...which may cost you nothing.  About $50-60....maybe less or more depending how good you are on eBay and how much custom you want.  No need to spend more tho.

 

THere's a little more detail to it of course, but you get the idea how it's so cheap.  They're actually better for deeper tanks because the lenses they come with are very strong 30º....so the mounting height is a lot....if I recall correctly, something like 14" off the top of a 12" tank.

 

I've run three different versions of this over the past 5 years or whatever (look for my post in his thread) and only stopped running the last one when I upgraded the tank recently.

[Reefkid88]

@mcarroll are you using 1/4w leds with a wall wart ? 

 

 Lighting a tank of his size is simply not happening for under $100. Using Cree or Luxeon,with quality parts is gonna cost you. I have about $200-$250 tied up in my diy pico light that is controllable,3 channels and looks amazing. 

 

 So please,give me a parts list to light a dsa 105,using quality diodes and parts that is controllable for under $100... I'll wait. 

[Tamberav]

I picked up a used ATI SunPower for 200 bucks for my tank recently. I will probably add a LED bar just for some more pop/shimmer but I absolutely am thrilled with my decision. I think the only negative is it has a fan and my old custom hybrid did not need fans. 

 

The parts on a sunpower are easily serviceable by the user and if well cared for, should last forever. 

 

Yes, it has higher cost to run over time if your led fixture never breaks and never gets upgraded. Just keep in mind... with more technology comes more things that can break.

 

It just depends what you value the most. Price? Controllability? Long term cost? Name brand? Customer service? DIY? Heat?

 

 

[mitten_reef]

Dream setup?  If I have money to spend, my tank will be blanketed by LEDs, something similar to these.  😂 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[pokerdobe]

5 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

Dream setup?  If I have money to spend, my tank will be blanketed by LEDs, something similar to these.  😂 

 

 

 

 

 

 

MY dream set up would harness the power of the sun, with LEDs as backup for cloudy days. 

 

But my dream system is also like 1000 gallons+. 

[farkwar]

1 hour ago, Reefkid88 said:

@mcarroll are you using 1/4w leds with a wall wart ? 

 

 Lighting a tank of his size is simply not happening for under $100. Using Cree or Luxeon,with quality parts is gonna cost you. I have about $200-$250 tied up in my diy pico light that is controllable,3 channels and looks amazing. 

 

 So please,give me a parts list to light a dsa 105,using quality diodes and parts that is controllable for under $100... I'll wait. 

I wanted to Like and Wow this post

 

But only get to choose one

[farkwar]

27 minutes ago, mitten_reef said:

Dream setup?  If I have money to spend, my tank will be blanketed by LEDs, something similar to these.  😂 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Those Orpheks

 

And tanks are beautiful

 

Tidal Gardens Than's friend Nathan just put a bunch over his new tank

 

 

 

The owner of this one

 

Is a dude.  And not married. I'll bet a bottle of Flatworm Exit on it.

[Tamberav]

Yah... I would love something like that. Maybe someday. 

[mcarroll]

1 hour ago, Reefkid88 said:

@mcarroll are you using 1/4w leds with a wall wart ? 

I don't know what this means.  Maybe you tagged the wrong person?  You can use nano-reef's quote function if you want to make replies make more sense and want to target the right person.

 

1 hour ago, Reefkid88 said:

Lighting a tank of his size is simply not happening for under $100.

I'm not sure what this means either.  If it's a 20 gallon as you mentioned, then I just told you a way to do it cheaper by half.  Say something if you can't find TG's thread I referred to.

 

I only said it because the question of "how cheap" came up...just following/joining the conversation.  

 

FWIW, I don't think anyone here needs to build one of these unless it seems like a good idea for some reason.

 

4 hours ago, Reefkid88 said:

So please,give me a parts list to light a dsa 105,using quality diodes and parts that is controllable for under $100... I'll wait. 

I'm not sure what you mean again....are you setting up a tank now?  Seems like you could use a separate thread for your ideas and questions.  My initial reply was already a serious tangent on the OP's thread.  Tag me on your new thread when it's ready.  

 

Otherwise look up @TinyGiant's thread for yourself – its a simple formula.  Nano Reef makes is easy to look up old threads.

[Reefkid88]

@mcarroll I'm not doing this with you lol. I listed the DSA 105 mentioned by the OP previously and the RS Nano and 20g merely as examples. 

 

 Don't back peddle now because you know the statement you made was idiotic. 

 

 My thread has been up,tank has been running lol. I also tagged you. Can you please tag me in your thread,I went back to Aug 20th and 12 pages of content and couldn't find it. 

 

 

[Coolbreeze]

My current thoughts.

 

I am not going to link or highlight any answers or questions as I do not want to offend anyone or call them out.

 

Not sure what I am asking.

 

Last sentence in the Bluefish controller section I thought was crystal clear. I was asking if anyone had one and used the functions laid out in the paragraph.

In the Aquatic Life T5 dimmable unit section was also asking if anyone has used one and what you thought about T5 and pairing it with Kessils A360.

 

Headed for T5 Bandwagon for reasons that our unclear.

 

I am planning on using T5 for it spectrum, spread and ability to limit shadowing, but it does look a little flat. It is also known to bring out the growth on Acropora’s. One of the biggest things is that I have never heard of T5 causing RTN so if I see that I can turn off the Kessils and only run T5.

 

Color blending is also an option as you run the full spectrum of T5 and you can run LED more white to give a more pleasing viewing but also gives the livestock what they need. I have not seen that you can do this with just LED’s.

 

I basically what a proven plug and play system that is easy to maintain that has been proven, so I do not have to or want to play mad scientist.

 

LED’s Are cheaper than T5.

 

Well that is not really a true statement. I will give you that you can build a cheap LED and put it in your tank, but at what cost? You are just taking into account of parts. What about time to assemble them, hooking them up to a controller, what is your spectrum and if it does not meet your goals then what is the cost to replace them ( Again adding in labor – even if you do it yourself your not free as your time needs to be worth something). Also, you do not include your risk – what if you kill everything because you were playing made scientist? I can go on and on as I have 35+ years as an Infrastructure Engineer. Basically, I have designed computer systems all over the world for fortune 500 companies and on the surface, it seems simple but there is a lot of research, design, labor, raw materials cost, cost to benefit and on and on. They also take into account risk management. So, what would it cost if your DIY LED burned down your home? It really is not that simple and may be okay for some, but not me.

 

Creating a DIY T5, LED or a combo of the two is outside my expertise and I have more important things to do then read and test on how to do it so it is out of the scope of DREAM System when I can just purchase a proven system.

 

Single source for my research.

 

I provided a single source for anyone to review that has given independent bias on all their lighting solutions that they carry and if anyone has taken the time to watch them they given you a lot of information on all there LED’s as well as three T5 that they carry. That means the proper mounting heights, par, spread and where are their best use case. And by the way they have given all those lights away when they were done testing them, some 20K so it was not a marketing ploy.

 

Now for assuming that I only used one source is…… Well you do know what assume means.

My research has included many sources from vendors, manufacturing, research sites and also including those who have responded by looking at their journals to see if they match my goals.

 

Lighting and color is virtually never do to lights

 

Well then how do the coral cells survive? By that statement then you would never need lights or need to worry about the light spectrum. Well then let’s just call up all the scientist that are working on these affects and tell them they are wasting their time and money, the problem has been solved.

 

From my experience is has all do with it. When the lights are blue watch them glow, turn them on to bright and watch them turn white. Very short sided in that statement.

 

Parameter/tank stability, food import/export, flow.

 

True statement, but the cost is minimal to the expense of lighting.  Back when I started keeping marine fish you used an under-gravel filter with basic lighting to keep your yellow tang. Then we used a product called Diatom filter to make your water crystal clear in an hour and when you were done you thought that you could drink the water in your tank as it was that crystal clear and also if you kept it alive a year then you were considered an expert. Never used or needed a protein skimmer back then and also you do not need it today either as there are alternatives to them.

 

I have spent the last nine months playing mad scientist with flow, parameters, food (Still have questions on this) and import/export and have purchase what to believe for me to be the optimal items for my goals. Follow my WB 110 to find out what I picked and why.

 

Pricing of corals and stay away from what I think is expensive

 

Missed the point of my goal. That is why I am going through this whole exercise to make sure that I can keep coral, fish and inverts that I want. Isn’t that the reason why we build them in the first place?

 

That's not really true anymore - the major vendors and aquaculture facilities using artificial lighting are using LED because it's significantly cheaper

 

Not fully a true statement. Major vendors use it because they only keep coral in stock for a short amount of time, so they do not need to worry about growth or coloration. They only need it to look great long enough for you to purchase it, which these days are only in days or maybe a month.

 

Aquaculture facilities are also not fully a true statement. Their goal is to keep the coral alive and grow into one inch frags to sell them and not to grow out a fill colony like you would in your DT. That would be too expensive for them to grow full colonies and sell them to individuals. Also, there is a facility I believe in Malaysia that uses a lagoon and sun for their growing needs.

 

I have gone over all the comments and found some really good nuggets from users here and I believe that my thesis is correct and on track for me and would like to thank all those who have taken the time out of their busy life to post here and give me there feedback.

 

I will continue to use T5 dimmable light with the Kessils on my WB 110 build and when Ryan from BRS proves that his new standard is ready for prime time I will switch out the T5 for Reef Brite Actintic Blue XHO LED strip. Just right now it is not proven and cost per par is outrages and my current goal is a simple proven method.

 

On my WB 20 I will use the Kessil A360 hooked up to the Bluefish controller as this tank will be mainly softies and some LPS and high par is not needed or required and I have no current plans to hook this into the Apex controller.

 

Please feel free to challenge me on my design. I do not mind someone pointing out the flaws so I can address them now when it is not too late to make changes if need be.

 

Here is a pic to cover the opening statement.

 

  

[Reefkid88]

I'm just going to leave this here,but @5*Chris did a killer hybrid. If I was to do a hybrid this to me is a prime example,although I personally would change a few things.

 

 Why not just do an AquaticLife hybrid and Radion /diffuser combo ? 

 

[farkwar]

Ryan is dreaming of wall to wall Orpheks over his 10 year tank

 

Me personally, I can't see how Orphek solves color separation other than by wall to wall installation.  The LEDs are just spaced too far apart just like a cheap Chinese black box LED.  And at $1100 each, that's out of my budget

[farkwar]

10 minutes ago, Reefkid88 said:

I'm just going to leave this here,but @5*Chris did a killer hybrid. If I was to do a hybrid this to me is a prime example,although I personally would change a few things.

 

 Why not just do an AquaticLife hybrid and Radion /diffuser combo ? 

 

With the new lenses on the G5s

 

The diffuser is not really necessary

 

The color blending is very satisfactory, while retaining LED shimmer.

[Coolbreeze]

15 hours ago, Reefkid88 said:

I'm just going to leave this here,but @5*Chris did a killer hybrid. If I was to do a hybrid this to me is a prime example,although I personally would change a few things.

 

 Why not just do an AquaticLife hybrid and Radion /diffuser combo ? 

 

Good point. I thought about that as well, but when you check the AquaticLife Fixture and Kessils they have the exact same mounting height. Also they both can be controlled by my Apex using the 0-10v plug so I now have the same device controlling all my lights without extra gear. It checks all my boxes and removes unneeded equipment and power consumption. I also considered it on the smaller WB 20 with there Echotech XR15 with XHO combo.

15 hours ago, farkwar said:

Ryan is dreaming of wall to wall Orpheks over his 10 year tank

 

Me personally, I can't see how Orphek solves color separation other than by wall to wall installation.  The LEDs are just spaced too far apart just like a cheap Chinese black box LED.  And at $1100 each, that's out of my budget

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but here is the details of what he said that he was going with. Not to be condescending but just want the facts stated. I have not seen any changes to what he said here, but provide details if he has made changes as I would like to know why.

 

LED Showdown Part 2

 

49:00 This is were he said that he was going to use the Kessils for the shimmer and the XHO

 

 

 

 

and here is where he is talking about year 5- 10 using a hybrid.

 

Led Showdown Part 4

 

 

 

1:23:20 is where he talks about a hybrid from year 5 to 10.

 

[farkwar]

It was in the visit to the Sean's 22 foot tank video

 

I just saw

 

But can't find now

 

My Elos 120XL is such a weird size, that even 5 years after buying it, I can't settle on the lights for it

 

3 XR30s. Or 2(3) Orpheks

 

Dunno

 

I had initially got all the stuff for a DIY fixture with 6 Ecotech G3 pucks.  But that's probably going to stay in a box. It will be impossible to sell, seems to me that LED DIY has virtually ended.  Even Dave Fason has stopped making lights.

[Coolbreeze]

No big deal, but if you come across it then let me know by updating here as I would like to know why he is changing his mind.

 

The lights are so hard to decide on because of all the options, personal preference and opinions out there. That is why I spent so much time on BRS Investigates on their lighting. It was really nice when they broke down each model by coverage, proper mounting height, spectrum and coverage. Now all you have to do is decide on what you need and want. So good luck on your decision making process.

[Coolbreeze]

So here is a update on the lighting. I have drilled the brackets with two holes on each adapter that is holding the Kessils and installed the Apex Lunar lights. I have added the Kessils but waiting on wire organizers and will update when done. One thing is that you must burn in the T5 for 24 hours before you can use dimming mode.

 

 

 

[Coolbreeze]

Update 1

 

I have completed my first part of the lighting. This part is for the WaterBox 20g DT. Keep in mind that I will be using the same lighting on both Waterbox systems, the only difference is that on the WB 110 I will be adding T5 so that I can get more coverage/spread and par.

 

With that said here is how I configured the Kessils for both systems.

 

First off I need 4 profiles created. Two for power and two for color. Here are the screen shots of the profiles names and what each profile setting are.

 

Profile Names

 

 

Color Profile

 

 

 

Power Profile - Will be adjusted when I rent a par meter to make sure that I have enough par and not too much.

 

 

 

Here is where I set up the variable ports to come on and off as desired and also set the color.

 

 

 

Here is my setting for turning on and off the light through Apex power plug.

 

 

 

Current Dashboard - Will change as I put more items on it.

 

   

I will be updating once I configure the Apex Lunar lights and the T5.