Daughter was mislead by LFS.... Looking for a different option.

[Rolibr]

tl;dr:  Daughter is 11, saved up for a saltwater tank.  Daughter said she wanted a tank for her bedroom and wanted a clown, some hermit crabs and some shrimp with "whiskers."  The LFS recommended her to get a 5 gallon nano they had a special on.

We got her tank cycled, and are now told her tank is to small for the livestock she wanted.

Now what AIO Nano should we be looking for?

 

 

Our Daughter is 11.  She recently picked up a little gig by dog sitting.  We let her take a small percentage of what she earned to be able to spend, the rest she is putting into savings.  She finally saved up enough to be able to buy a fish tank.  She has wanted a saltwater tank for a while.

 

A few weeks back we ventured into a LFS that was recommended to us to check out for a addition for our Cichlid tank.  Our daughter immediately spotted a few nano tanks that they had on display.   She fell in love with them.  I talked with a employee and explained to her that my daughter was wanting to buy a tank with money she saved and she was interested in one of the nano's that they had on display.  The employee asked my daughter what she wanted in a tank and she said that she wanted  one or two Clown's, a few Hermit Crab's and a few shrimp "with whiskers" (cleaner shrimp.)  

Of course the employees pointed us to the Nano's they had on display on the checkout counter.  They had a Marineland 5 gallon nano and a Fluval Evo 5 gallon nano.  Three employees recommended the Fluval because it was longer and that the fish like to swim lengthwise more that up and down like the deeper marineland tank.  She again told them about the fish she wanted to keep and they told her that the Fluval would be perfect for her.  (They even had a clown and a shrimp in each of the tanks.)  

 

Fast forward a few weeks.  We worked on getting her tank cycled and we stopped back into the store yesterday.  They didn't have any shrimps and the only clowns they had were a little higher priced ones.  So we asked another employee as to what other fish they recommended for her tank.  The guy immediately said "you cant keep saltwater fish in a 5 gallon tank....  He wouldn't recommend anything to us that was saltwater....  I asked him why they sold these "kits" with live rock and a bag of live sand and showcase them with clowns and shrimp.  He said that he didn't know why.

 

So today I did some more searching online and found one other store other actual LFS.  (It was about a hour away.)  After talking with them, they too said that they would not recommend her putting a clown in a 5 gallon tank.  I made the comment as to why this other store pushes these small tanks with a clown in it if the tank is not suited for that fish.  

 

 

 

So our daughter is now heartbroken that she spent her hard earned money on a tank, and spent the time cycling it and testing it daily while she was looking forward to adding livestock..

What size Nano should we be looking for for her?

 

[A.m.P]

11 or 10 would be "big enough" for most people to consider homing a single clownfish.
A pair might do well as it's not uncommon for them to be bred in a tank that size, but it will require allot of waterchanges and minimal-aquascaping.
Cleaner shrimp are pretty cool, a pair might be cramped in a 10 gallon and will require feedings regardless.

My advice is to wait for Petco to have a dollar-per-gallon sale and grab a 10 or 20 long, alternatively-browse the facebook marketplace or craigslist for second-hand tanks. Sometimes you can get a fair-bit of gear as freebies on a tank which is a dollar or less per gallon.

Unfortunately the fluvals and the like are pretty expensive for what you're getting, that said some folks really appreciate their aesthetics.

[LazyFish]

If shes not planning on much for corals mabe some mushrooms or other easy things a simple 10g with a decent light hood and a oversized large hob filter is sufficient that's what my first sw tank was and is the cheapest alternative. The Petco 1$ per gallon would be the best time to get it. If she is set on an aio system There are a few aio aquariums of various brands that are around 10 gallons that would all be fine. I had a 4 or a 4.5 gallon reef tank with 1/4 g refugeum and a 1/2 gallon canister filter with just a single clown for several years cant remember exactly more than 10 years ago she was fine but it's not realy not ideal or recomended especialy for beginners the water peramiters can be a bit touchy and it's a heavy bio load in sutch a small tank.

[Rolibr]

Hmm, I might start looking for 20 gallon tanks.  I see those go for cheap on marketplace.  

 

Our family is just starting to venture into saltwater.  Everyone who we knew who had saltwater had large tanks with sumps.  I was not aware that a hob filter would work on saltwater.  Everyone has sumps. 

 

I am curious if petco will be offering up the $1 a gallon soon.  We were in there earlier this week and they had tanks stacked all over the place.  It seemed like every open spot had tanks stacked up....

[A.m.P]

Check their website, 20longs are a fantastic size tank. There are people on these boards who use nothing but live rock and powerheads for flow and keep very successful tanks, check out @WV Reefer builds. Sumps are nice because of how much space and water volume they add, but aren't necessary.

 

If you're set on having rear-chambers for a skimmer and to hide equipment you can always make one yourself with some aquarium-safe silicone and cheap Home Depot glass or acrylic which has been cut-to-fit (the acrylic is more expensive but easier to work-with, especially when cutting out channels for the overflow)

 

Alternatively you can use food safe Rubbermaid/Tupperware as a sump and set up PVC overflow siphon-pipes and a return pump, the Tupperware won't last forever though.

 

Some get cheeky and have two display tanks, their "sump" is a refugium with different critters and macroalgae growing in it and the two tanks are plumbed into each other. 

(The Tupperware or this refugium/sump could be the fluval, although you might have a better time of things financially if you trade or sell it)

[Rolibr]

I just looked on Petco's site.  It looks like they are doing the $1 a gallon sale.  I see this tank.  https://www.petco.com/shop/en/petcostore/product/fish/fish-tank-hoods-lighting/aqueon-led-29-gallon-aquarium-kit

 

a 29 gallon kit with a hob filter and led light for $96.  When it comes to saltwater is there anything specific that we would need for a filter for slatwater or is any standard HOB doable?  Also, is that light enough to get the job done?

 

Or should I go with a basic tank and buy a light and HOB separate?  For starters she won't be doing coral, but I will not rule that out for the future.  (Which then we could always upgrade the light.)

[Clown79]

She could keep a baby clown in the 5g but know that at some point it will need to be rehomed in a larger tank.

 

Other options for a 5g would be a tailspot blenny, which are really cool fish.

[LazyFish]

I used an emperor 280 hob for years on my tanks. One old lfs around here used them exclusively on there stock tanks. I Literally wore it out.  The chamber is large enough to put some chemipure in it with the filter cartridge if you get inventive you can even stuff some filter floss in it. I think it was actualy designed to run two filter cartridges one in front the other. Many kinds of hob Could be used on a 20 for filtration. I prefered to use an oversized hob for filtration with a power head for circulation. On one set up when I couldnt afford a power head I just used two big hob filters to up the flow. Fish with live rock only set ups dont need fancy filtration if you want corals some simple corals like shrooms and some leathers can do well in these set ups. If given sufficient light. I grew shrooms and some grape macro algae in mine with the regular fluorescent fixture it came with but I did upgrade to a nicer bulb. Most tank kits today come with fairly garbage led but some kits have a decent lights that can support some shrooms I would upgrade to a bigger hob than whatever the kit comes with. Personally on a 20g I'd put something that is rated to handle a 50 or bigger. Regular waterchanges are just as important in fish only systems. The larger the tank the more stable the water peramiters but that also makes the water changes larger too.

[A.m.P]

I'd recommend using this forum's search-feature to read up a bit on saltwater basics, most HOB setups are really just going to be there to hide a heater, a touch of live-rock or ceramic-media like seachem matrix, and maybe run some polyfill ,carbon, or chemical media.

The light probably won't even grow low-light plants and a HOB filter can be had for less than the $60 in that bundle, the hood is convenient until you want a better light lol.
The HIPARGERO light on amazon will grow most lps and softies in a 20long or 20tall. Or a simple PAR 38 ABI Tuna blue in a hoodless-lamp fixture will most likely work, a pair if you really want great coverage.

[Tamberav]

I would not do the kit. $96 is kind of high for what you get considering the light isn't useful for anything but fish.

 

I would buy a tank on their sale and add a separate hob. I recommed seachem since it will surface skim.

 

You will also need a powerhead and heater.

 

For light you can use anything...even a desk lamp until you decide what to get. There are less inexpensive brands for coral that would be appropriate.

 

Many soft corals are toxic and palys can be downright dangerous so be sure to research and have her learn about them.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Seadragon]

@Rolibr I see that you and your family has learned one of life's important lessons.  Never trust anyone, especially a salesperson.  Salespeople, such as those from a LFS or car dealership, are bias in their opinion and are usually trying to sell you something, even if it's not in your best interest.  The only way to combat this is to educate yourself and your family thoroughly on how things really work.  Learn everything there is about saltwater tanks.  I'm going to give you a homework assignment because you should be informed on what may be best for your situation.  I read your post carefully and you never once mention that you or your daughter wants corals at this time.  Only that she wants clownfish, cleaner shrimp and some hermit crabs.

 

So research the following:

1. Fish Only (FO) vs Fish Only With Live Rock (FOWLR) vs Reef Tank.  You will find that the FO and FOWLR are much cheaper and easier to maintain than a reef tank, will give you exactly what you asked for, and doesn't require a powerful, expensive light and the maintenance/dosing of calcium, alkalinity, and other elements and trace minerals (both of which are needed to keep corals alive).  Keep in mind the FO can easily be converted to FOWLR and that can be converted to a Reef Tank by just upgrading things like the light and keeping your water parameters in check.

2. Ocellaris clownfish.  These clownfish remain relatively small compared to other types of clownfish.  They are much more suitable for a small tank, are hardy, are much cheaper, and look just like Nemo!

3. Blue Legged Hermit Crabs and Scarlet Hermit Crabs

4. Scarlet Skunk Cleaner Shrimp

5. Banded Trochus Snail, Stocky Cerith Snail, Mexican Turbo Snail.  (eventually you will get algae in your tank, and when that time comes, one of the things you'll be researching are CUC (Clean Up Crew) and few beat the 3 snails that I mentioned here.

 

I'm glad others mentioned about the Petco dollar per gallon sale.  I'm personally not into AIO tanks, but I love the Aqueon tanks from Petco myself, and love getting a good deal on them.

 

This will get you started.  Just remember, trust no one and research a lot and do your homework.  Education is the key to success in any hobby, especially an expensive one like saltwater.

[MainelyReefer]

8 hours ago, Rolibr said:

So our daughter is now heartbroken that she spent her hard earned money on a tank, and spent the time cycling it and testing it daily while she was looking forward to adding livestock..

What size Nano should we be looking for for her?

Time to sack up as a parent and come home with an Innovative Marine and get dad of the year award.  I would look for a 20g+ model and I would start researching as it seems not only is your daughter a novice at fishkeeping but potentially you too.  In this hobby research is key,  LFS employees are not professionals in the industry or at least very few of them are.

[Rolibr]

Thanks a lot for the insight. 

 

As of now, corals are not in the plans.  At least not for the first year until she gets the hang of things.

[mcarroll]

Too true about education and this hobby.  Thankfully as others have pointed out, it shouldn't be expensive to make things right.   Consider also looking for a used tank in the classifieds/Craigslist/et al.

 

Unfortunately you kinda have the cart before the horse right now and you're blaming the store clerks for the rough ride, which IMO is unfair to them, even in light of the dubious info. 

 

They could never educate you properly in one trip to the store even if they knew what they were doing.  

 

IMO the only GOOD advice you could have gotten in the scenario where you come in asking what size tank for a clownfish would have been to purchase a book instead of a tank....and I'm not sure they even sell books in pet stores anymore, so you were basically out of luck when you left the house undecided about what you were getting.

• First step on your journey should have been to get a book and do some reading.
• Second step should be to get online or go to a reef club and get any questions answered about anything you read that didn't make sense.  (You should have questions or it wasn't a good book.)
• Third step should be deciding what animals you want.
• Fourth step should be researching the needs of those animals to make sure all selections are appropriate to your expectations.
• Fifth step is to begin planning the tank for them.....size, shape, location, et al.
• ...and you go from here.

The only thing you should need from the LFS is to know how they're keeping their animals and info on their current livestock so you can plan for them accordingly.

 

If you're going to a fish store with the expectation that they teach you to reef, you better find a specialy saltwater shop and not a Petco/Petsmart type of place.  Even then there's no guarantee you'll get someone who's done their homework, you have to ask questions and find out....which is hard unless you've already done some reading before you show up.

 

On that note, here's my thread on good hobby books if you need any purchase ideas on that front:

Chime in with your reef-oriented reading list!

[ninjamyst]

People going to hate me for saying this but I had one clownfish in my fluval spec V before...

 

 

Since you just started this hobby, I would just keep the fluval evo V as long as you are sure you will only put one clown fish and a cleaner shrimp in it.  Start with a baby clownfish.  Keep things simple, don't over engineer it at the beginning.  You already paid for an AIO that comes with all you need.  No need to reinvent the wheel and piece together another tank.  Start with what you have, make sure your daughter and you enjoy the hobby, and then upgrade in a year or two if needed.  

[FISHnChix]

20 minutes ago, ninjamyst said:

People going to hate me for saying this but I had one clownfish in my fluval spec V before...

 

 

Since you just started this hobby, I would just keep the fluval evo V as long as you are sure you will only put one clown fish and a cleaner shrimp in it.  Start with a baby clownfish.  Keep things simple, don't over engineer it at the beginning.  You already paid for an AIO that comes with all you need.  No need to reinvent the wheel and piece together another tank.  Start with what you have, make sure your daughter and you enjoy the hobby, and then upgrade in a year or two if needed.  

Yep . I would grab a small clown and add it to the current tank.  

 

+1 to the idea of trying out the hobby and and see if she even likes it in a year..

 

 

 

[debbeach13]

You can have a nice little reef in the tank you have. Please check out a couple of the tanks in the old school pico contest that just ended. You will be amazed most of the tanks are only 2.5 gallons. After you and your daughter see if maintaining a tank is something you are honestly interested in doing then you can upgrade. Also you could check out El fabs pico thread it is only 3 gallons.

[Draco]

I'd consider a clown goby (really fun bright fish with lots of personality) for your 5g tank- if she likes that tank and is considering other fish options. She can still get a cleaner shrimp and some hermits too

 

If she has her heart set on a clownfish, then yes, I'd also suggest a larger tank- petco's 20g long dollar per gallon works well. If you want to do a HOB filter, I suggest getting largest as possible for extra water volume, it can act as a sump in a way

[Seadragon]

2 hours ago, ninjamyst said:

People going to hate me for saying this but I had one clownfish in my fluval spec V before...

 

 

Since you just started this hobby, I would just keep the fluval evo V as long as you are sure you will only put one clown fish and a cleaner shrimp in it.  Start with a baby clownfish.  Keep things simple, don't over engineer it at the beginning.  You already paid for an AIO that comes with all you need.  No need to reinvent the wheel and piece together another tank.  Start with what you have, make sure your daughter and you enjoy the hobby, and then upgrade in a year or two if needed.

You’d be surprised how many of us agree with you (as long as it’s a clownfish that stays small like an Ocellaris clownfish).  The only reason I didn’t suggest this myself is because there are some nuts out there that like to argue on things that work just fine.

[Clown79]

What's the difference from keeping 2 in a 10g(which many hobbyists do) to keeping 1 ocellaris in a 5g?

 

My 2 clowns in my 25g stick to a small area of the tank and leave it for about a minute then back

 

I think a small ocellaris would be fine, even 2 baby's in a 5g would be fine.

 

Just have a plan to upgrade in future because they will outgrow a 5g in time. 

 

If the 5g evo is properly set up and maintained this shouldn't be a problem. 

 

Now if the store would take back the 5g Evo, I'd exchange it for the 13.5 Evo and that would be better for  2 clowns.

[Tamberav]

I had a clown in a 5g and I do not reccomend it for adult clowns. It would be okay as a baby for a year but people tend to get comfortable and leave it that way and not upgrade. I hated seeing my clowns with no where to go and it was just temperary housing. I think this could be a good learning experience.

 

My percs use a large part of my 80g even though they sleep in a nem at night. Not all clownfish are inactive. 

 

There are plenty of fish that can live in a 5g their lifespan such as tiny blennies and gobies and they honestly have a lot more personality than a clownfish but I can understand why a 11 year old would be drawn to a clownfish.

 

 

[Tired]

2 clowns in a 10gal are the same as 1 in a 5gal in terms of bio-load, but not in terms of space. The ones in the 10gal have 10 gallons of space to move around in. 

 

A baby clownfish (or two especially baby ones) would be fine, sure. But it's generally not a good idea to buy a fish for a tank that's not large enough for its adult size, even if you plan to upgrade in future. 

 

If your tank is cycled, you can use that to instantly cycle a larger tank. Just transfer the rock and sand over to the new tank. Tank size doesn't matter for a cycle, just bioload. I would see if anyone wants to buy/trade the smaller tank- it would be a good deal for someone to swap a 20gal, lid, and powerhead for that 5gal you've got there, if they want a 5. 

 

Alternately, get a clown goby or other fish suitable for a 5gal, and see if she likes the hobby. You can always upgrade in the future. Clown gobies are adorable and swim kinda like clownfish, those are worth a shot, and cleaner shrimp should be OK in a 5.

[Crys]

Hi,

Don’t worry it’s not a total disaster.  I agree that a tail spot blenny would be fine and they look like a character that swam out of a Dr. Zeus book.  Also don’t overlook the fun of a hermit crabs and snails.  You might even be able to get a porcelain crab.  They are very fun to watch.  The biggest thing will be not to over stock.  Take a look at the pico tanks on the site and see if she likes them. 

I have fallen prey to the LFS telling me I could have a star fish.  So don’t go into the store until you have done your research. 

I have a Fluval Evo Spec. 13.9 gallon.  I love it, the only thing I did add was a small wave maker so there was more water movement.   The maintenance is weekly but the water changes are small so not to overwhelming for an 11 year old. You can also have 3 fish suited to a nano tank, live rock and a few soft corals.

Good luck with your decision.  If you do go with something larger you can turn the 5 gallon into a fresh water tank for pea puffers. (captive bread)  They are very fun.

Good luck  PS also be aware that a new tank will look ugly on and off until it is established. 

Below is a picture of my tank at 4 months.

 

[mcarroll]

19 hours ago, Rolibr said:

Daughter is 11, saved up for a saltwater tank.

Dunno if this got mentioned yet, but props on getting her into saving money as a kid!  👍

[Rolibr]

Well today took a strange turn...  
My wife found a acrylic 20 gallon bow tank with stand, hood, protein skimmer and a large HOB filter.  Everything was in very good condition.  They were asking $150 for everything.  It came with a florescent light, but they said we may want to upgrade the light. 

We kind of explained to them why we were looking at it for our daughter and they asked our son (9) if he has his own tank.  (He has a small tank with Mollys)  

The couple then said that if we pay full price they will give us a 12 gallon nano-cube.  They said it does need a new pump.

 

We ended up spending a few hours at this couples house.  They had a room full of large tanks and we learned quite a bit.