Neutral White Luxeon Rebel ES

[jm82792]

Well guys my MH bulb died and I refused to order a new one!

2 weeks until the Maker heatsink is shipped, but I have meanwells and my old Cree light I never used along with 3 GU10s. So my 29 gallon tank has 3 gu10's on my corals and I'm about to hang my 9 LED cree CW and RB light that features XRE and XPG

I'll post pics of it, it already looks retarded without my mini cree and the coral doesn't seem to mind the light change.

[jedimasterben]

good choice on Philips Rebel as your choice..... seems even the company Giesemann , who we all know makes fine fluroscent tubes is finally jumping on the band wagon and making their own LED lights and guess what they decided to use..... yulp, Philips LEDS.

 

 

reefbuilders.com/2012/05/15/futura-led-giesemann/

 

msjboy

People are seeing the light... pun intended.

 

Well guys my MH bulb died and I refused to order a new one!

2 weeks until the Maker heatsink is shipped, but I have meanwells and my old Cree light I never used along with 3 GU10s. So my 29 gallon tank has 3 gu10's on my corals and I'm about to hang my 9 LED cree CW and RB light that features XRE and XPG

I'll post pics of it, it already looks retarded without my mini cree and the coral doesn't seem to mind the light change.

My corals were happier with 4x 13w CFLs over top of them than with my old LEDs!!

[McJosh13]

Ok, now you've got me convinced to try Rebels for my BIG build. I want to be able to keep SPS and clams et.c. but am thrown with what I would need. My tank is 72 x 24 x 24 and I like the idea of a 14K look but with the ability of running a 2500K - 20K range (if possible).

 

I know what I'd do with Cree but have no idea when it comes to Rebels. What would you guys suggest?

For a 24 inch deep tank some optics will really help out par levels especially deeper in the tank. How high above the water will you mount the lights? If within 4 to 6 inches the tina3-www optics I posted on page 3 will increase par levels without reducing spread. If higher then that more narrow optics like the tina3-ww would be ideal

[jm82792]

Seriously the XPGs and XRE are that bad?

[jedimasterben]

Seriously the XPGs and XRE are that bad?

I had Bridgelux over my setup. I don't touch Cree, too much money and not enough performance to justify it.

 

The way my rocks were set up, I had SPS in the top half of the tank, and the sandbed had a bunch of LPS, zoas, and all my anemones were scattered on another rock that was higher up than the SPS. If I ran my LEDs high enough to give good light to the sandbed, it would burn the SPS. If I ran them at minimum, the SPS would be fine, but the stuff on the sandbed was mad as hell and started receding.

 

 

 

 

I can't wait until Steve gets his hands on the NW Luxeon M.

[ajmckay]

Haha, this thread should be titled "Move over, CREE, there's a new kind of fanboy for 3W LEDs

 

Also, does anyone in this thread receive discounts or kickbacks of any kind from Steve?

Disclose quick before someone caves in to media pressure and a scandal of unimaginable magnitude is uncovered (unless you let me in on the action, that is...)!

 

Actually nano-reef is a hotbed for so-called "fanboyism", especially when it comes to LEDs since nano-reef had a lot of the early info on it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing because sometimes the attitude can help distribute genuinely good products (I can think of several) and encourage competition - but then again it can do the opposite too. How do you think that the CREE name got so popular (not saying CREE is a bad product)? I'm also not saying that we shouldn't support our N-R.com sponsors (actually I don't think Stevesleds is a site sponsor) or any other site. I'm just giving my opinion on how it reads

[HecticDialectics]

good choice on Philips Rebel as your choice..... seems even the company Giesemann , who we all know makes fine fluroscent tubes is finally jumping on the band wagon and making their own LED lights and guess what they decided to use..... yulp, Philips LEDS.

 

 

reefbuilders.com/2012/05/15/futura-led-giesemann/

 

msjboy

 

Must be why everyone uses ATI and UVL

[jedimasterben]

Haha, this thread should be titled "Move over, CREE, there's a new kind of fanboy for 3W LEDs

 

Also, does anyone in this thread receive discounts or kickbacks of any kind from Steve?

Disclose quick before someone caves in to media pressure and a scandal of unimaginable magnitude is uncovered (unless you let me in on the action, that is...)!

 

Actually nano-reef is a hotbed for so-called "fanboyism", especially when it comes to LEDs since nano-reef had a lot of the early info on it. I'm not saying that's a bad thing because sometimes the attitude can help distribute genuinely good products (I can think of several) and encourage competition - but then again it can do the opposite too. How do you think that the CREE name got so popular (not saying CREE is a bad product)? I'm also not saying that we shouldn't support our N-R.com sponsors (actually I don't think Stevesleds is a site sponsor) or any other site. I'm just giving my opinion on how it reads

I'm not saying that Cree makes bad products - I'm saying that there is a less expensive option now that is more powerful. Competition is necessary, but up until this point, it was each seller only dealing in Cree, and prices have remained quite high because people continue paying them. For a while now, Bridgelux LEDs have been circulating because they are less expensive, but they are also inferior - not only in luminous output, but also in look and color rending, as blasterman has pointed out many, many times in the forums.

 

So, Cree was still "The King" of 3w LEDs in our world. Now that a product is less expensive, has higher luminous output, and uses less power, can they still hold that title?

 

 

And when the Luxeon M is widely available, it will have a higher luminous output than the XM-L with less power, and should be at least a dollar less expensive each. We will then have a good high-output alternative.

 

Must be why everyone uses ATI and UVL

I swear, every time I see "ATI" I always think of computer graphics cards!

[evilc66]

I think this "king of the hill" stuff is getting silly.

 

Cree didn't develop the position they have in our little part of the world because they made the highest lm/W LEDs on the market. They were the easiest high power, high output, high quality LED to get at the time, and happened to have pretty damn good output. When we first started the whole DIY LED movement a few years back, Cree XR-Es and Philips Rebels were about tied for performance, but you couldn't easily get mounted Rebels, and then when you could, they were close to twice the price of the XR-E. Simple economics put them on top. I actually started my DIY LED research with Rebels, even though I had to reflow them myself onto MCPCBs. I moved to Cree because it saved me a ton of time and money. Lens options also made an impact, as you are hard pushed to find a Rebel optic with an angle wider than 45 degrees.

 

Anyway, the numbers you have calculated aren't quite right. You were close, but Steve was WAY off on what he is posting on his site. All data below is taken from the latest manufacturer datasheet.

 

Luxeon Rebel ES Cool White (LXML-PWC2, ~5650K):

Typical Vf @ 1000mA - 3.1v

Wattage @ 1000mA - 3.1W

Lumens @ 1000mA - 320lm

Lumens/Watt @ 1000mA (25C) - 103.22lm/W

 

Lumens @ 1000mA (85C) - ~295lm

Lumens/Watt @ 1000mA (85C) - 95.16lm/W

 

Cree XP-G Cool White (R5 bin, ~6300K):

Typical Vf @ 1000mA - 3.15v

Wattage @ 1000mA - 3.15W

Lumens @ 1000mA - 348lm

Lumens/Watt @ 1000mA (25C) - 110.47lm/W

 

Lumens @ 1000mA (85C) - ~306lm

Lumens/Watt @ 1000mA (85C) - 97.14lm/W

 

I put the 85C number up there to show more real world numbers. 25C just isn't practical. And for those that are wondering why I compared the Rebel ES against a cool white R5 XP-G, well that's because the LXML-PWC2 Rebel ES is a cool white LED (that's what the 'C' in PWC2 means). 5650K is too far into what is normally considered "cool white".

 

If you want an apples to apples test, then compare the R3 neutral XP-G to the LXML-PWN2 Rebel ES, which is 310lm @ 1000mA. That does put it ahead of the XP-G, but not by the margins you are claiming.

 

Anyway, stop trying to figure out which is king of the hill. An XP-G neutral white is every bit as good as the Rebel ES. It's all paper racing at this point as you don't know which manufacturer is playing it safe with performance metrics, and which is exaggerating. The only thing the Rebels ES is hands down winning on is price, but that will change once the XB-D and XT-E white start showing up mounted and in numbers.

 

As for XM-L vs. Luxeon M, you are comparing a single die LED to a multi-die LED. There are always performance benefits from running more LEDs at lower current, so it's hardly a true apples to apples comparison. As much as I like Philips Lumileds LEDs, they will be surpassed by Cree if they make an LED with four XM-L dies in series to compete. The XM-L has about 11% better efficacy per die at 700mA. If there was no efficiency loss packing 4 XM-L dies in a single package (there will be, but I'm just speculating), a quad die XM-L would put out 1040lm @ 700mA and 11.6v.

 

After all of that, I'm not trying to to say that Cree is better than Lumileds. They all work great, and are of just about equal performance. There will be some variation between brands on color tint, but that's not that big of a deal considering how many of us are starting to run the gamut of LED colors in their build.

[supernip]

I hope you had a fun hiatus, this place went to the ####ter in your absence evil

[evilc66]

Lol, I doubt that.

[reeftankguy]

I hope you had a fun hiatus, this place went to the ####ter in your absence evil

 

Who

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey Evil!!!! welcome back man!

[jm82792]

I remember when you first posted that thread, I think it was that you were using 1/2 watt LEDs? Then you helped some members get antinic retrofits... Dang it's come a long way.

 

Anyways I'm awaiting the heatsink and I'll have a Rebel ES fixture up and running. I'm look forward to it as the economics of owning an LED fixture out here is obvious due to high electricity prices and recurrent costs of buying a $70 MH bulb.

 

Plus I'll post pics of how the under cabinet retro goes..

[kgoldy]

Plus I'll post pics of how the under cabinet retro goes..

 

Interested in how this goes. Been thinking of doing the same.

[McJosh13]

I think this thread got away from the it was originally was saying, which was not that Luxeon is superior to Cree as a brand or that the Rebel ES was superior to XPG. He was originally saying that the Luxeon Rebel ES **LXW8-PW50** specifically had a few attributes that makes it unique from other Luxeon rebel ES and XP-Gs that improve the aesthetic look over the tank (at least in my and a few other people's opinion). These are a more even output between 460nm and 500nm (without such a huge dip in the wavelengths between), see below,and a high CRI of 85 (which is almost impossible to find at 5000k) which I assume is from the more even output:

 

Rebel ES LXW8-PW50

XPG

 

I also personally like the color temp (5000k) which I've had a hard time finding in XP-Gs currently available. I would concede that efficiency and overall output are close enough to be a push. It's nice to have some more options that produce a different look than the XP-G

 

BTW- The other Rebel ES model numbers such as the cool white LXML-PWC2 do not share these attributes and look the same or worse than the XP-Gs that are considered standard

[jedimasterben]

Evil,

 

First, the thread is not about the LXML-PWC2, it is about the LXW8-PW50, and specifically the U3CS bin, so Steve's numbers on his site are spot on (conservative, by my calculations). I compared them to the R3 bin of the XP-G in neutral white. Comparing Steve's bin of the LXML-PWC2 give it a very slight edge over the R5 XP-G in cool white. That is so slight that it doesn't matter, though, even in large numbers it would go unnoticed. The key is still price and price/performance, Luxeons still have an edge.

 

The XT-E has started showing up... about 5% cheaper retail when mounted than the XP-G.

 

And the XM-L vs M thing, just like you said, a multi-die XM-L would do better than the M, but there isn't anything like that at this time, but the M is here, and they are competing segments.

 

I think this thread got away from the it was originally was saying, which was not that Luxeon is superior to Cree as a brand or that the Rebel ES was superior to XPG. He was originally saying that the Luxeon Rebel ES **LXW8-PW50** specifically had a few attributes that makes it unique from other Luxeon rebel ES and XP-Gs that improve the aesthetic look over the tank (at least in my and a few other people's opinion). These are a more even output between 460nm and 500nm (without such a huge dip in the wavelengths between), see below,and a high CRI of 85 (which is almost impossible to find at 5000k) which I assume is from the more even output:

 

Rebel ES LXW8-PW50

XPG

 

I also personally like the color temp (5000k) which I've had a hard time finding in XP-Gs currently available. I would concede that efficiency and overall output are close enough to be a push. It's nice to have some more options that produce a different look than the XP-G

 

BTW- The other Rebel ES model numbers such as the cool white LXML-PWC2 do not share these attributes and look the same or worse than the XP-Gs that are considered standard

That, and that they're cheaper.

[Milad LEDGroupBuy.com]

You guys are leaving out the fact all the spec sheets for the Rebels are at 25c. Im not sure whos marketing idea that was. Numbers are going to be different by a bin or so when they reach the CREE spec sheet at 85c.

 

Both are great products, and its a tight comparison once you are comparing apples to apples.

 

Also FYI, there is a recall on the Rebel ES again. Something about damaged ceramic on the die while they were being placed.

[McJosh13]

You guys are leaving out the fact all the spec sheets for the Rebels are at 25c. Im not sure whos marketing idea that was. Numbers are going to be different by a bin or so when they reach the CREE spec sheet at 85c.

 

Both are great products, and its a tight comparison once you are comparing apples to apples.

 

Also FYI, there is a recall on the Rebel ES again. Something about damaged ceramic on the die while they were being placed.

 

Milad,

The XP-G's are spec'd at 25 degrees also, which is what I think Jediben is comparing them to. The new XT-Es are binned at 85 degrees, more accurately depicting their brightness in practice... hopefully Luxeon will follow trend in the future. Can you share a link for the recall, I can't find any mention of it anywhere.

[Milad LEDGroupBuy.com]

Milad,

The XP-G's are spec'd at 25 degrees also, which is what I think Jediben is comparing them to. The new XT-Es are binned at 85 degrees, more accurately depicting their brightness in practice... hopefully Luxeon will follow trend in the future. Can you share a link for the recall, I can't find any mention of it anywhere.

 

your right, I didnt notice that. who sells XPG anymore anyways? XTE Whites are where its at now.

 

 

I did a bit of goggling and I dont see the recall yet either. Basically it says one of their tools was corrupted and any diode that was made with it will can flicker or not light up.

[jm82792]

Well I tested one and it lit up :/

That's a tad scary.

[evilc66]

Evil,

 

First, the thread is not about the LXML-PWC2, it is about the LXW8-PW50, and specifically the U3CS bin, so Steve's numbers on his site are spot on (conservative, by my calculations). I compared them to the R3 bin of the XP-G in neutral white. Comparing Steve's bin of the LXML-PWC2 give it a very slight edge over the R5 XP-G in cool white. That is so slight that it doesn't matter, though, even in large numbers it would go unnoticed. The key is still price and price/performance, Luxeons still have an edge.

 

I'd really like to know what datasheets you are looking at, or how you are reading them, because the LXW8-PW50, U3CS bin or not, isn't helping your case. The base numbers on that LED state 272lm @ 1000mA and a Vf of 3.1v. Taking the U3CS bin into account, that gives you close to 310lm. I split the difference between the minimum and maximum luminous flux for the U bin to get that number, and a 35% increase (which is probably a little optimistic) over nominal based on the datasheet curves.

 

I'm not going to argue that the price to performance ratio is better with the Luxeons when purchased through Steve's LEDs. He must be making almost nothing on each LED to be selling them at $3 each mounted.

[Deleted User 5]

I know is not my post but you guys are scaring me about that recall.It is safe to buy Luxeons ES or better stay with Cree

[Milad LEDGroupBuy.com]

I know is not my post but you guys are scaring me about that recall.It is safe to buy Luxeons ES or better stay with Cree

It looks like the dealers just got the letters so im sure they are recalling their stock that was effected. It gives specific run numbers so they should know which are apart of the recall.

 

This happened back in 2008 also and I think it was dealt with nicely.

[Deleted User 5]

which web link you are getting this info,can you post the link.it is hard to believe

[jm82792]

Well I hope mine are good, the one I taped to a heatsink with some thermal grease did fine for 15 minutes.