Natural Seawater vs homemade saltwater

[brandon429]

My good buddy Abaneyone from youtube and I came up with a neat little supplement idea for his ponderance of this matter. he's using the synthetic salt to avoid the organic loading, but he's inserting little frozen chips of saltwater as additives weekly, not the complete water borne loading you get with 5 gallons all real marine water, but just enough for some compound support and suspended planktonic matter even though it will degrade faster now that its dead/frozen. planktonic food does not have to be alive to be beneficial, especially when he's keeping corals taken from the lagoon in his front yard and using frozen samples of water from it having the exact same nutrient complement the corals are adapted to. lucky guy has an island snorkel adventure waiting outside daily lol

[wombat]

Keeping the thread live!

 

Hahaha...

 

I called the Seattle Aquarium to get more details about the specifics of their water (since they never answer my email) and they finally called me back. They were very informative…….

 

What I got from my phone call.

 

The “filtered to ~750 microns” thing is via a sand bed filter they run

They do UV filter it after that.

This is the point where they sell it to me via the pumps.

 

For their internal use, they go farther (slightly shifty since they claim they sell the same water they use in their tanks…but whatever).

 

The water you get is the same water they use in their open systems for local temperate stuff.

 

The water they use for tropical systems goes through the process you describe in part below:

 

Their internal water is put through the same sand bed and UV, but is then….

1. Shoved full of ozone (ozone ruptures cell walls/kills things/sterilizes, etc….).

2. Has the ozone removed.

3. Then is filtered down to a smaller micron, then heated and used for all tanks.

 

It also goes through carbon and a protein skimmer. You can't ozonate water that much and not strip out the oxidants afterward. It would kill fish and inverts pretty quickly.

 

The guy said that they do absolutely no supplementation at all with any sort of trace elements, calcium, alk, mag, etc….

 

They supplement the reef tanks with ca/alk just like we do in hobby tanks, plus Sr and I.

[paneubert]

They supplement the reef tanks with ca/alk just like we do in hobby tanks, plus Sr and I.

 

Not to argue....

But I am not sure why he would lie to me about supplements since he already was steering me towards not using his water exclusively for my tank. Would have been easy for him to tell me they supplement like crazy if he wanted me to stay away from their water for my reef. Why would they hide something like that? Do you know something I do not about the Seattle Aquarium? Makes me curious......I am suspicious by nature

Hahahaha. I guess there will always be some mystery and a "man behind the curtain".

 

Just an FYI, the cal and alk in the bay is right around 400 and 8. I saw that measurement at home and the guy on the phone said it about his measurments without me even bringing it up. So it is not like that is out of the normal range for a reef. Slightly lower than most would maintain, but I do not see why they would be supplementing in secret instead of just running tons of water through there.

[wombat]

Not to argue....

But I am not sure why he would lie to me about supplements since he already was steering me towards not using his water exclusively for my tank. Would have been easy for him to tell me they supplement like crazy if he wanted me to stay away from their water for my reef. Why would they hide something like that? Do you know something I do not about the Seattle Aquarium? Makes me curious......I am suspicious by nature

Hahahaha. I guess there will always be some mystery and a "man behind the curtain".

 

Just an FYI, the cal and alk in the bay is right around 400 and 8. I saw that measurement at home and the guy on the phone said it about his measurments without me even bringing it up. So it is not like that is out of the normal range for a reef. Slightly lower than most would maintain, but I do not see why they would be supplementing in secret instead of just running tons of water through there.

 

You may have been talking to someone who works with coldwater systems. I talk to the guy who runs the reef tank there pretty regularly.

[paneubert]

You may have been talking to someone who works with coldwater systems. I talk to the guy who runs the reef tank there pretty regularly.

 

Well, not a problem I suppose since I also dose. Just not as big of a tank.

[paneubert]

The guy suggested I test some freshly purchased water for ammonia, phosphate, nitrite, and nitrate to see what happens. See if there really is any issue at all. He was just covering his ass by telling me sometimes the nutrient levels around the bay/water source do rise. But that is something I am not surprised about.

 

I tested some water that I have had sitting for a few weeks and all the readings were zero.

 

Ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, phosphate. So that is a good sign. If the water was loaded with nutrients then I would have expected to at least see some phosphate or ammonia. Especially after letting it sit for weeks decaying in a jug.

 

I am headed back there tomorrow to load back up and I will test some "fresh" saltwater to see if the readings are any different.

[brandon429]

sounds like they managed to clean it lol

[paneubert]

Yeah...I mean they filter it to a fairly low micron and UV it before they sell it to me. The filter should grab any larger particles/creatures and the UV should kill some of the smaller things.

I could see some spike in levels happening from the stuff the UV killed decaying, but I cannot see it being much. Not like I am getting a rotifer/green water culture from them or anything

 

I mean.....there are people who literally use unfiltered sea water from close to shore. I am not sure how I could be concerned using the filtered aquarium water when there are those other people using beach water...

[paneubert]

Bringing this thread back from the dead again.

 

Did a 20% water change last night with some fairly old NSW and I noticed that my skimmer immediately started skimming a lot of wet skimmate. As of this morning (about 12 hours), it has skimmed more than it ever did in the past. I did test the water before I used it since it had been sitting for so long, and both nitrate and phosphate were zero. So who knows what exactly the skimmer is pulling out. Not nutrients or anything like that.....maybe it is just because I stirred up my sand with my water change siphon or something.

[johnmaloney]

not sure if someone mentioned it, but if you have time and a spare container you can make sure the water is extra safe by killing everything in it with chlorine, and then removing the chlorine through agitation or with a chlorine removal product. Then just filter out any lingering ammonia and etc...before adding. just test it before using.

[paneubert]

Not a bad idea. I do not think anyone mentioned that before. I do have a giant bottle of "Prime" sitting around from years ago. So it could easily be done if a concern ever comes up.

 

The only time I have ever been suspicious about the water was when I saw what looked like a minor diatom bloom on one wall in a semi-transparent jug that I had in my car in the sun for a few weeks. The water still tested clean for any sort of nutrients and had no smell when I was playing around with it. I used those jugs for all sorts of water....fresh RO, RO/DI, LFS created synthetic salt, etc.... So whoooooooooooooooooooooo knows if it was even diatoms, and if so, what caused them.

 

I can tell you that my barrels that admit no light or air have always stayed totally crystal clear and orderless even after weeks and weeks of storage.

 

I might have to keep that bleach/Prime idea in mind though. I think I am moving to water changes every 2 weeks instead of weekly. So I might just quit using natural water since it would not be a huge hassle to make my own.

[juvance]

Aaahhhh, if I had access to NSW I would switch in an instant. I hate having to mix salt... and buy it.

[brandon429]

thats neat feedback that the container of natural water didn't go rotten after a long time. makes me wonder what it is with synthetic salt that makes it smell like stinkwater after just a week capped sometimes.

[johnmaloney]

diatoms are so abundant you can guarantee NSW will have it in it, probably some silicates too especially if you are getting it from shallow sandy beaches where silicates are often higher. So you may get some diatoms from time to time...probably not enough to bother anything though.

[bamboosharkbark]

You're a student! Learn some humility so you don't sound arrogant and foolish ok? You most certainly are no final authority on this matter and there's a presumption that what you're saying is your own opinion and nothing more than that.

Your link is about lakes and were talking about the ocean here so get your **** straight matey.

 

Also try learning some manners, your parents would be ashamed of your pathetic communication skills.

Well, lets see. I'm an Ecology student at UCSD, I've worked and taken class at Scripps research institute with some of the leading marine researchers in the world regarding marine ecosystems. I'm not specifically a professional aquarist, although I've built tanks for several people through out my years in the hobby, but "professional" is just a buzz word...

 

as stated before, I use sea water ONLY, never had to buy salt. The fact that cold oceans have NPS corals just goes to show the importance of upwelling, and it's a hugely accepted idea that cold waters are rich in nutrients and the like.

 

Here's a start on some reading...I could pull my notes and lectures out but I dont think you deserve it.

 

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ba-1987-0216.ch006

 

This pdf shows a huge variation in elemental concentrations IN THE FREAKING BAY OF SAN DIEGO

www.chem.agilent.com/cag/other/AL-VOLPE.pdf

 

regards, a$hat

[paneubert]

Aaaaaaaand bringing the Seattle Aquarium NSW thread back from the dead again in case anybody reads all 5 pages in the future and wants to know how things are going.

 

Wanted to give a shout-out to the Seattle Aquarium for being so awesome. Anybody who is thinking of using their water should at least try it.

 

The reason I say this is that they will bend over backwards to help you out....all for 5 cents a gallon. I had an issue with my RFID card and I was not sure if I had any credit left on it since I had taken a couple months off from doing water changes.

I called the Accounting department (during the day) and they helped me right away. They emailed me a copy of my account details and told me they would mail me a new card ASAP if I thought mine was broken. I told them I would let them know (I go there after hours).

When my card did not work that same night, I emailed them and they were super apologetic the next day. They sent me a new card and also told me to call the "Biologist on Call" that they have there overnight every night if I ever have issues in the future. They basically gave me the phone number that will ring all thru the Aquarium building after hours for urgent issues I feel so powerful. Hahahaha. I would feel bad calling some guy in the middle of the night complaining about not being able to get my 5 cent water. But I guess it is good to have the number just in case.

 

Gotta love 5 cent water

[fewskillz]

I get my NSW for free from UNC-Wilmington's Aquaculture facility.

 

I've been using it for years. I do use synthetic salt in my nano, but the 180 is just way too big to do regular water changes with store-bought salt.

[Bill Nye]

Interesting that people are using NSW from colder areas in their tanks. I had always thought about using some of the local water but assumed it would cause problems due to cold water being more nutrient rich than warmer tropical waters. I also dont know how it is near where you live but I know here we have alot of waste water facilities which dump right into the bay...I dont think corals would like that.

[AlanStanwyk]

Interesting that people are using NSW from colder areas in their tanks. I had always thought about using some of the local water but assumed it would cause problems due to cold water being more nutrient rich than warmer tropical waters. I also dont know how it is near where you live but I know here we have alot of waste water facilities which dump right into the bay...I dont think corals would like that.

I switched to NSW a few months ago and wont be going back to mixing my own, for now at least. All of my corals immediately responded for the better once I switched. It depends on your source. It should be collected offshore and run through multi step filtration. Each NSW source is going to have a different method/different equipment. Im happy with my NSW at the moment. Comes in around 1400 in Mg, 7 KH, 400Ca and 1.025 every time. Was previously using Tropic Marin pro.

[fewskillz]

The NSW I use is run through several sand filters and treated with Ozone. Half of the aquariums in this city are run with that water.

[Bill Nye]

The only thing I don't like about this is that its the same reason I dont get water from my LFS. I hate lugging buckets of water around its so annoying. That being said I'm going to ask some of my colleagues at the GSO lab to see if they will give me some water for free!

[fewskillz]

In fact I'm going tonight to pick up 40 or so more gallons to fill the 180's sump.

[wombat]

Gotta love 5 cent water

 

That's pretty cool.

 

FWIW in most cases NSW is perfectly fine if it's run through a filter sock. I think people get a little overzealous with the need for ozonation and UV and such. The closer you can get to a large current, the better. I would avoid an enclosed bay, but it can work too.

 

When oceanographers talk about upwelled "nutrient rich" waters in temperate areas, it is still a paltry amount of nutrients compared to what you see in a reef tank. Hardly worth fretting over. The amount of nitrate and phosphate that pour out of the San Francisco Bay plume (which drains the entire California Central Valley, probably the largest farming area in the West) would be moderately acceptable by reef tank standards.

[Bill Nye]

That's pretty cool.

 

FWIW in most cases NSW is perfectly fine if it's run through a filter sock. I think people get a little overzealous with the need for ozonation and UV and such. The closer you can get to a large current, the better. I would avoid an enclosed bay, but it can work too.

 

When oceanographers talk about upwelled "nutrient rich" waters in temperate areas, it is still a paltry amount of nutrients compared to what you see in a reef tank. Hardly worth fretting over. The amount of nitrate and phosphate that pour out of the San Francisco Bay plume (which drains the entire California Central Valley, probably the largest farming area in the West) would be moderately acceptable by reef tank standards.

 

Hmm I am not sure about this. Here in Rhode Island we always talk about high nitrate and phosphate levels and the anoxic events they cause. Even in the coastal waters outside the bay I would imagine that due to high nutrient loading it would still be pretty high. I am not sure on the comparisons between sea grass and coral sensitivity to these nutrients, but if sea grass is having a hard time hanging on in a lot of these areas Im guessing coral would be sad.

[tinctorus]

I have almost always used natural seawater, I have a buddy who own a saltwater delivery service to all the large aquariums as well as my home tank and I have NEVER had a problem with his water...He goes out to the reef on his boat, collects 1500 gallons then runs it thtrough 3 UV sterilizers as well as running it through carbon filters,micron filters and then checks it for anything possible and his water is ALWAYS perfect

 

Hey charges ME 80 dollars to drain and fill my 65 and my 34 gallon tanks and it is what I have ALWAYS used and everything thrives in my tanks "except for my 65 since my dad was feeding the fish 9 times a friggin day even after I asked him not to...Sooooo i hid the fish food from him