Natural Seawater vs homemade saltwater

[Captain Billy]

For what it's worth, you can use seawater during red tides if you use a uv sterilizer on the holding tank.

[Gort]

I really didn't mean to start a bar-fight y'all ...

[Captain Billy]

No fights, just facts!

[Gort]

No fights, just facts!

 

I never thought such an innocent question would draw such differing opinions - and fervent defenses!! I gotta learn to filter out the facts from the fiction ...

[rbengal]

I use NSW on my tanks and they're doing great. Comes from the Coastal Marine Lab in New Hampshire that's Gulf of Maine water that's normally way colder than what my tank is. Ready to go after heating. I ran into the question of whether to go with the CML NSW or mix my own (ready available RO/DI and salt mix). Decided to try out the NSW way and it's been great so far.

[MarcG]

Or in the case of Puget Sound....I'd avoid getting your water after Combined Sewage Overflow (CSO) event.....might be okay with a UV sterilizer....but the thought of it might make me skip the weekly water change.

[Gort]

Or in the case of Puget Sound....I'd avoid getting your water after Combined Sewage Overflow (CSO) event.....might be okay with a UV sterilizer....but the thought of it might make me skip the weekly water change.

 

I see you must be an Emerald-City-Dweller like me!!

[wombat]

Lets think logically. If reefs did not require specific parameters of trace elements, dont you think that they would be FAR more common in equatorial regions? If you look at reef locations across the world, one thing that unites these is that these areas are near deep water upwelling zones. Nutrients, micro fauna, and the like play important roles in the formation of reefs, and the "supercharged" deep water that is brought up allows for the huge biodiversity...

 

areas of upwelling

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...ling_image1.jpg

 

Reef locations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coral_reef_locations.jpg

 

Hmmm, is it just me, or do the most biodiverse coral areas appear to be in the areas where upwelling DOESN'T occur?

 

I was always under the impression that zooxanthellate coral reefs tended to form faster and larger where water is warmer, which happens to generally be on the eastern sides of continental landmasses where the warm tropical equatorial water is "piling up". Thus, you get warmer water in the Western Atlantic and Pacific than the Eastern Atlantic and Pacific, and correspondingly larger and more diverse coral reefs...

[wombat]

Ohh really? Other than salinity in the red sea and temperatures, what exactly are the differences? Are you a professional aquarist? Have you used seawater in your tanks? Where are you getting this information?

 

Trace elements ARE THE SAME WORLDWIDE......

 

The reasons we dont have photosynthetic coral reefs world wide is due to temperature and sun angles. It has nothing to do with trace elements. Even the coldest oceans are full of non photosynthetic corals.

 

He's got a point. There are large variations in some elements depending on latitude, ocean, upwelling, etc., and of course some elements have depleted depth profiles, some have conservative depth profiles, and some increase with depth. Compare for instance aluminum concentration in the Western Atlantic versus Northwestern Pacific, nearly 10x higher in the former:

 

http://www.mbari.org/chemsensor/pteo.htm

http://www.mbari.org/chemsensor/al/altxt.html

 

Another example. Here's a north-south cross section of nitrate concentrations in the Pacific Ocean. There is tremendous variability.

 

[Captain Billy]

I'm not familiar with that measurement of NO3, but I'm sure that it isn't above 1ppm in any part of that graph.

[wombat]

I'm not familiar with that measurement of NO3, but I'm sure that it isn't above 1ppm in any part of that graph.

 

The upper part of the range, 40 micromoles/kg, is equivalent to about 2.5 ppm NO3. Granted that is from like 1000m depth.

 

I'd agree that NSW from just about anywhere is okay to use in a reef tank, but there IS quite a bit of variation of minor elements from place to place.

[johnmaloney]

NSW is fine, plenty of things have found a way to survive in the ocean. You don't need to pump it from a reef, every major aquaculture company and public aquarium uses it just fine, most of your wholesalers and everyone who brought your livestock to this country used it too I bet...you just want to make sure you are getting it from a source that isn't mixed in with freshwater from a river. If you have pros getting the water for a public aquarium you should be fine, if it is just you collecting, checkout Chucks Addiciton for great info on how to properly collect your own water.

 

Equator story falls short when you look at the worlds largest reefs and find them a good distance from equator. Great Barrier, Belize, and Florida are pretty much at the ends of the coral inhabiting spectrum of the world. Okay Belize is pretty close, but I still think it is near 1000 miles north of the equator. (But it does follow the gulf stream, as does the Florida Barrier Reef)

[mbonus]

How does one go about collecting the NSW? I live on the west coast of Florida. Is it as simple as going to my local Gulf of Mexico beech with a five gallon bucket at high tide?

 

I just spent the better part of an hour at my lfs getting water. Besides the cost, it might have been quicker to just go to the beach.

[paneubert]

How does one go about collecting the NSW? I live on the west coast of Florida. Is it as simple as going to my local Gulf of Mexico beech with a five gallon bucket at high tide?

 

I just spent the better part of an hour at my lfs getting water. Besides the cost, it might have been quicker to just go to the beach.

 

There are posts that I cant seem to find that explain how that person did it. But from what I remember, you should go as far out as you can and get water from as deep as you can. So don't just skim 5 gallons into your bucket from the surface of a public beach. Wade out and pump it up or something like that.

[Gort]

How does one go about collecting the NSW? I live on the west coast of Florida. Is it as simple as going to my local Gulf of Mexico beech with a five gallon bucket at high tide?

 

I just spent the better part of an hour at my lfs getting water. Besides the cost, it might have been quicker to just go to the beach.

 

I have access to NSW via the Seattle Aquarium - filtered and UV-treated - for 5 cents per gallon. That's the reason I asked the question that began this thread..

[mbonus]

I have access to NSW via the Seattle Aquarium - filtered and UV-treated - for 5 cents per gallon. That's the reason I asked the question that began this thread..

 

 

Not so lucky here as far as I know. I could go out to the skyway fishing pier with a bucket and rope, but that would be more of a pian than the lfs.

[Gort]

Not so lucky here as far as I know. I could go out to the skyway fishing pier with a bucket and rope, but that would be more of a pian than the lfs.

 

I wouldn't go that route either - I may eventually tire of the schlep to my NSW source but i plan to to start the tank that way anyhow.

[paneubert]

So.....if anyone is curious about the Seattle Aquarium water....I just signed up for access to their pumps. Here are some of the details about how they run their system since it took some creative "hacking" to find the details online anywhere.... and when I did I could not save or copy and paste them....weird...

 

1. Water drawn from Elliot Bay. Only main freshwater input to the bay is the Green River (think Green River Serial Killer ). So pretty much as natural as seawater can get.

2. Used for all exhibits (including the coral reef exhibits) for the past 20 years. I can attest that their SPS/Clam tank is beyond amazing. I was blown away when I saw it this morning. It is at least swimming pool sized and is jam packed with clams that are something like 2, 3, 4 feet long and branching SPS colonies that were the size of a car. The plating/scroll varieties looked like a scuba diver could take a nap on them.

3. Approx 28 ppt salinity (open ocean is around 32ppt).

4. Temp ranges from 6 C to 14 C depending on the season.

5. UV disinfected and filtered to ~750 microns.

6. Access is there 24/7/365 and it is right on a loading dock off of the main road. So that is a plus!

7. Flow rates can be set from 4 gallons per minute up to 65 gallons per minute.

8. 5 cents per gallon.

9. You use a RFID card (fancy pants awesome technology if you ask me) to start and stop the flow. Since the card is registered to you alone, they send you an invoice once a month letting you know what time and date you used it, how much you got, and how much it cost. Basically they send you a bill for 2 bucks each month Hahahaha. Unless you use a lot I suppose.

 

I like it! Not sure if I will use it often. But if I am around downtown Seattle and have my empty jugs in the car (which I always do), then I will fill up! I think I will probably end up bumping the salinity up a bit....but then again.....maybe not. If I go with 2 part dosing then maybe I will run the tank at the lower salinity just for convenience.

[danilew]

Hmmm, does anyone know if the Shedd Aquarium in Chicago sells water?

[paneubert]

Keeping the thread live!

 

Hahaha...

 

I called the Seattle Aquarium to get more details about the specifics of their water (since they never answer my email) and they finally called me back. They were very informative…….

 

What I got from my phone call.

 

The “filtered to ~750 microns” thing is via a sand bed filter they run

They do UV filter it after that.

This is the point where they sell it to me via the pumps.

 

For their internal use, they go farther (slightly shifty since they claim they sell the same water they use in their tanks…but whatever).

Their internal water is put through the same sand bed and UV, but is then….

1. Shoved full of ozone (ozone ruptures cell walls/kills things/sterilizes, etc….).

2. Has the ozone removed.

3. Then is filtered down to a smaller micron, then heated and used for all tanks.

 

So their water is cleaner than mine.

 

The guy said the absolute only concern he could see with the water as it is sold is that the nutrient levels can sometimes rise to a level that might not be nice to your tank. He said he could see a small algae outbreak if the nutrient levels were raised in the bay for some reason at the same time as someone does a large percentage water change without a strong bio-filter to eat all the nutrients quick enough. So at least he was honest about that.

 

BUT!!!!!!!!!

 

The guy said that they do absolutely no supplementation at all with any sort of trace elements, calcium, alk, mag, etc…. He also said that this means their tanks salinity drifts with nature and that they do see a swing from season to season. They just do not worry about it since it is gradual.

 

So that is the answer to the main question I had about supplementation and salinity levels.

 

Moral of the Story:

 

As long as I keep an eye out for the nutrients in the water, I should be good to go.

[brandon429]

wow what I just read was the sterilization (and nullification for usage) of ocean water and you get basically the same as our synthetic salt+ nitrate and phosphate? why use it

 

I wouldn't want mine UV'd, Id want it passed through an eco aqualizer.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

okay enough of that just yoking

 

your post got me to thinking man.

when they mention no dosing, its because of volume. we are still placing this water into our concentration camps it will show the same dynamics for ion command as made water.

 

I can agree some trace element supplementation might be untouchable in the sea water, but we aren't really lacking of that in my opinion?

[paneubert]

okay enough of that but honestly the treatment you are mentioning Pan is like me buying my drinking water by purchasing jack daniels and then paying someone to distill the water back out of it for me to drink.

 

Hahahaha! Yeah......

My reasoning for giving it a shot is the novelty of it as well as the price. I have no room to make/store my own water and have to buy from the LFS otherwise. 5 cents versus 99 cents per gallon.

 

The aquarium guy pretty much said the same thing you did He said that it is all a pro and con type situation between synthetic and natural. Pluses and minuses to both.

[brandon429]

if cost was a significant savings then maybe its worth a go. I always find my friends using sea water in the pico and nano reef have to change more water more often than nsw that shows up without organic loading and give you a dry sponge to start with, at least reef crystals do...

 

man if all that treatment didn't remove the nitrates and phosphates heck use it right out of the ocean at least you'll get the plankton and microplankton support we could only dream about!

[paneubert]

man if all that treatment didn't remove the nitrates and phosphates heck use it right out of the ocean at least you'll get the plankton and microplankton support we could only dream about!

 

This is the real question at hand....

 

The guy suggested I test some freshly purchased water for ammonia, phosphate, nitrite, and nitrate to see what happens. See if there really is any issue at all. He was just covering his ass by telling me sometimes the nutrient levels around the bay/water source do rise. But that is something I am not surprised about.

[paneubert]

your post got me to thinking man.

when they mention no dosing, its because of volume. we are still placing this water into our concentration camps it will show the same dynamics for ion command as made water.

 

I can agree some trace element supplementation might be untouchable in the sea water, but we aren't really lacking of that in my opinion?

 

I already am dosing a 2 part calcium and alk. I guess it is three part since it also has a jug of mag. So yeah......I will have to dose more of those to meet the needs of the lower salinity/smaller water volume. I am fully aware that their freaking awesome SPS tanks are only awesome at 1.020 salinity since they probably push hundreds of gallons of water through there regularly and the new water replenishes any elements that the SPS sucked up. I should have asked about how much water they change when I talked to the guy.....