Natural Seawater vs homemade saltwater

[Trolldoll]

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthre...tugal+maternity

[pumarjr]

Run two tests for natural sea water. Run a test with the water found at the shore, make sure to check for your trace elements and also include in your test, tests for bacteria, now run that same test with water taken at sea, and at depth. When I said, near a reef, that was me saying that if you are near a reef and have access to a boat, why take it from anywhere else. If taken from the reef, at least you know that the water is clean and instantly usable. But, I should have taken into consideration that not everyone has contaminates near the shore.

[megan]

Julian Sprung walks out three feet off of the shore and collects it from there. I do as well, but only sometimes, and haven't had any problems. I don't do it at low tide, but I find all my tank inhabitants go NUTS when I add 5 gallons to my tank. The corals blow up, the fish get excited. I do think you'd either have to do it very rarely, like I do, or exclusively, so as to not have too much change to your system.

[Captain Billy]

Run two tests for natural sea water. Run a test with the water found at the shore, make sure to check for your trace elements and also include in your test, tests for bacteria, now run that same test with water taken at sea, and at depth. When I said, near a reef, that was me saying that if you are near a reef and have access to a boat, why take it from anywhere else. If taken from the reef, at least you know that the water is clean and instantly usable. But, I should have taken into consideration that not everyone has contaminates near the shore.

 

Your still not getting a critical point about seawater.

 

Why do you think the trace elements are any different bear shore versus the reef? The ocean is the same chemically worldwide. Temperature and minor variables in salinity like the red sea, are the only differences.

 

All seawater has bacteria in it, it isn't a bad thing. It also has zooplankton, phytoplankton, marine snow and other nutrients corals use. Enterococcus is the only real bacteria of concern and if it were to reach unsafe levels, beaches close ect. I have still used seawater during this time with no ill effects to the tanks.

[jssmith]

i get mine straight from the boynton inlet in S.florida during high tide. crystal clear drop a pump down about 30 inches or so and thats it!

[MarcG]

Puget Sound water temperatures are high 40's in the winter and low 50's in the summer. Any issues with heating that water to typical reef tank temperatures, high 70's to low 80's? Could the +30 degree F rise in temperature over the local norm cause some kind of bacteria and/or planktonic die off which could cause issues?

 

I don't know one way or the other....just throwing that out there.

[Captain Billy]

No heating the water causes no issues. We still need to heat our water in Florida in the winter.

[Gort]

From a pure dollars & cents perspective - about what does it cost to mix up a 5 gal batch of reef-tank-ready saltwater?

[Captain Billy]

Around 40-60 cents per gallon depending on what size and type of salt mix.

 

Not counting the cost of RO/DI.

[Gort]

Around 40-60 cents per gallon depending on what size and type of salt mix.

 

Not counting the cost of RO/DI.

 

Is an RO unit considered "best practice" for nano-reef keeping?

[paneubert]

Let me put this specific location based question to rest.

1. I live in Seattle.

2. The Seattle Aquarium does use natural for their tanks.

3. I know at least 4 people who use the same exact water from the Seattle Aquarium. None of them have ever had any complaints, issues, drawbacks, trace element issues, heating issues......anything.

 

So while I do not want to necessarily say that all natural water from all natural water sources will work well, I will say that the Puget Sound at the point where the Seattle Aquarium collects is perfectly fine.

 

Lastly, I know the method the Seattle Aquarium uses for people to come get water is a RFID card that you have assigned to yourself. You just go in to a secured area and fill your buckets. So......I assume if they developed a RFID system and process for a benefit of only 5 cents a gallon, then there must me a pretty large population of people who are using it and not complaining.

[kthehun89]

Here in San Diego, we are blessed to have Scripps water, which is natural sea water filtered by 3 huge sand filters. This stuff is free, comes from a spigot by the beach...Birch aquarium here uses the same water...NSW is far better than synthetic as stated, but using unfiltered or water during a red-tide can seriously mess your tank up...

 

And Captain Billy, your notion that ocean water is the same world wide is ignorant and absolutely false...you have no idea of sea chemistry if you believe this

[Gort]

....I assume if they developed a RFID system and process for a benefit of only 5 cents a gallon, then there must me a pretty large population of people who are using it and not complaining.

 

You pay $10 to setup the card intially, then add or recharge funds as needed to purchase the saltwater. Still - it seems like a great deal to me and I plan to set up my tank using that source. I guess I'll need to bring about a dozen buckets to minimize the schleps from the south end!!

 

Paneubert - any chance I could take a gander at your tank in-person sometime? As a noob I'd appreciate some inspiration..

[paneubert]

You pay $10 to setup the card intially, then add or recharge funds as needed to purchase the saltwater. Still - it seems like a great deal to me and I plan to set up my tank using that source. I guess I'll need to bring about a dozen buckets to minimize the schleps from the south end!!

 

Paneubert - any chance I could take a gander at your tank in-person sometime? As a noob I'd appreciate some inspiration..

 

Hahaha, you could look if you want.....but it might scare you off The current version of my tank has not been up long enough to look like anything special. I also am not happy with my arrangement or quantity of rock since I moved up in tank size but did not add more rock. But you could always check it out. When I said I live in Seattle, I meant Kenmore. So just north of the city lines. Might be a drive if you are in the South End. Personally I wish I had enough motivation to go down to the Aquarium to get natural water. I either mix my own, or in a pinch buy water from the local fish store. They have never let me down with a bad batch and have always been good trace elements. Costs a lot more than 5 cents a gallon though.....

 

Send me a PM if you want to talk about getting together sometime or if you want to come up here to see what I have.

[Euphyllia]

Depends where you collect from. Most sea water is far superior to mixes.

 

I use natural seawater in dozens of tanks and dozens more people use it privately in their own tanks.

 

Seawater works great, and is always superior to mixes in trace elements. The only real difference world wide in seawater is temperature.

 

The water where I am is collected from a 50F bay that's the exact opposite of a coral reef. If you use that water, none of the parameters are going to be correct for a reef. In this hobby we're trying to make our tanks as close to the natural environment as possible to keep our WC fish at their happiest. With real ocean water there could be pests in it, or even diseases. If you mix your own water then your corals will benefit from the supplements in it.

[paneubert]

The water where I am is collected from a 50F bay that's the exact opposite of a coral reef. If you use that water, none of the parameters are going to be correct for a reef.

 

 

I am curious what parameters you mean. Honestly, I am not trying to cause trouble. Besides temp and maybe the fauna that is local to the region, what parameters are going to be off?

 

I bet the only thing stopping your bay from having a great reef is temp, maybe flow, and amount of light it gets. So.......all things that we can control in a tank. Just some food for thought.

[kthehun89]

Lets think logically. If reefs did not require specific parameters of trace elements, dont you think that they would be FAR more common in equatorial regions? If you look at reef locations across the world, one thing that unites these is that these areas are near deep water upwelling zones. Nutrients, micro fauna, and the like play important roles in the formation of reefs, and the "supercharged" deep water that is brought up allows for the huge biodiversity...

 

areas of upwelling

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...ling_image1.jpg

 

Reef locations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coral_reef_locations.jpg

[Captain Billy]

And Captain Billy, your notion that ocean water is the same world wide is ignorant and absolutely false...you have no idea of sea chemistry if you believe this

 

Ohh really? Other than salinity in the red sea and temperatures, what exactly are the differences? Are you a professional aquarist? Have you used seawater in your tanks? Where are you getting this information?

 

The water where I am is collected from a 50F bay that's the exact opposite of a coral reef. If you use that water, none of the parameters are going to be correct for a reef. In this hobby we're trying to make our tanks as close to the natural environment as possible to keep our WC fish at their happiest. With real ocean water there could be pests in it, or even diseases. If you mix your own water then your corals will benefit from the supplements in it.

 

What pests and diseases are commonly free swimming in seawater?

 

Other than the temperature, what parameters are different from seawater over a coral reef?

 

Lets think logically. If reefs did not require specific parameters of trace elements, dont you think that they would be FAR more common in equatorial regions? If you look at reef locations across the world, one thing that unites these is that these areas are near deep water upwelling zones. Nutrients, micro fauna, and the like play important roles in the formation of reefs, and the "supercharged" deep water that is brought up allows for the huge biodiversity...

 

areas of upwelling

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...ling_image1.jpg

 

Reef locations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coral_reef_locations.jpg

 

Trace elements ARE THE SAME WORLDWIDE......

 

The reasons we dont have photosynthetic coral reefs world wide is due to temperature and sun angles. It has nothing to do with trace elements. Even the coldest oceans are full of non photosynthetic corals.

[paneubert]

Lets think logically. If reefs did not require specific parameters of trace elements, dont you think that they would be FAR more common in equatorial regions? If you look at reef locations across the world, one thing that unites these is that these areas are near deep water upwelling zones. Nutrients, micro fauna, and the like play important roles in the formation of reefs, and the "supercharged" deep water that is brought up allows for the huge biodiversity...

 

areas of upwelling

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...ling_image1.jpg

 

Reef locations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coral_reef_locations.jpg

 

 

I like it! Good points. But I wonder how we can compare the benefits of upwelling and the fauna and nutrients it brings up versus synthetic salt. There is a complete lack of any fauna in salt mix, so I would assume/guess that any fauna (from pretty much any natural source) is better than none? And I am not sure if the upwelling has anything to do with trace elements at all? I am no expert, but since when do calcium, mag, all the rest come from upwelling? I know that massive amounts of nutrients and cold water rising to the surface means massive bio-diveristy and that leads to more micro organisms which means more fish/better reef, etc..... But if salt mix has no diversity and it still works for people, then why would using seawater in a tank be any worse since it at least has something in it?

 

Just seems like your post is totally true and probably speaks volumes to why and where natural reefs form, but does not really make an argument for or against using synthetic versus natural?

[kthehun89]

Ohh really? Other than salinity in the red sea and temperatures, what exactly are the differences? Are you a professional aquarist? Have you used seawater in your tanks? Where are you getting this information?

 

What pests and diseases are commonly free swimming in seawater?

 

Other than the temperature, what parameters are different from seawater over a coral reef?

 

Trace elements ARE THE SAME WORLDWIDE......

 

The reasons we dont have photosynthetic coral reefs world wide is due to temperature and sun angles. It has nothing to do with trace elements. Even the coldest oceans are full of non photosynthetic corals.

 

 

Well, lets see. I'm an Ecology student at UCSD, I've worked and taken class at Scripps research institute with some of the leading marine researchers in the world regarding marine ecosystems. I'm not specifically a professional aquarist, although I've built tanks for several people through out my years in the hobby, but "professional" is just a buzz word...

 

as stated before, I use sea water ONLY, never had to buy salt. The fact that cold oceans have NPS corals just goes to show the importance of upwelling, and it's a hugely accepted idea that cold waters are rich in nutrients and the like.

 

Here's a start on some reading...I could pull my notes and lectures out but I dont think you deserve it.

 

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ba-1987-0216.ch006

 

This pdf shows a huge variation in elemental concentrations IN THE FREAKING BAY OF SAN DIEGO

www.chem.agilent.com/cag/other/AL-VOLPE.pdf

 

regards, a$$hat

[Captain Billy]

Well, lets see. I'm an Ecology student at UCSD, I've worked and taken class at Scripps research institute with some of the leading marine researchers in the world regarding marine ecosystems. I'm not specifically a professional aquarist, although I've built tanks for several people through out my years in the hobby, but "professional" is just a buzz word...

 

as stated before, I use sea water ONLY, never had to buy salt. The fact that cold oceans have NPS corals just goes to show the importance of upwelling, and it's a hugely accepted idea that cold waters are rich in nutrients and the like.

 

Here's a start on some reading...I could pull my notes and lectures out but I dont think you deserve it.

 

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/ba-1987-0216.ch006

 

This pdf shows a huge variation in elemental concentrations IN THE FREAKING BAY OF SAN DIEGO

www.chem.agilent.com/cag/other/AL-VOLPE.pdf

 

regards, a$$hat

 

 

Dear a$$wipe,

 

I wasnt refering to a bay or other closed body of water, where run off and freshwater cause variations in seawater. I was refering to open ocean, or a beach, not a bay. I would neevr collect water from a stagnant bay. Seawater is one of the most consistent mixtures on earth. Temperature is the only real variable.

 

Would you argue that seawater, even in a ####ty bay, is less consistent than mixed salts?

 

 

Here are some tanks I take care of that all use seawater, for the skeptical.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is how its collected:

[paneubert]

Geeeez, get a room you guys. It is usually easy to misjudge the emotion that someone is trying to communicate in writing, but it seems like you two have made it pretty clear that you need to resort to name calling to get your point across. Sad......

[kthehun89]

Great grand wonderful

 

SD bay, man made, no river inputs or anything like that...just an example of regional variation.

 

I guess the point that I was trying to make is that assuming that all open sea water is the same is a stretch. There are actually huge variations in salinity across the ocean

 

http://aquarius.gsfc.nasa.gov/education-salinity.html

 

and if you remember your 5th grade science class, temperature and salinity are related values, and salinity is "the amount of chemical salts (compounds that include Na, K, Mg, Ca) contained in a solution", naturally there will be less dissolved elements in differing salinity solutions, as well as dissolved oxygen and pH differences. Local variations, depth variations all factor in, be it minutely...

 

Basically, all seawater is NOT the same, I don't care who you are or how many tanks you keep, that's just stupid...

[Captain Billy]

It's just a discussion, I'm having fun proving my point, obviously someone got so butthurt that they had to start name dropping. I was just being polite and following example.

 

Seawater is superior and far more consistent.

 

/thread.

 

And I could grow corals in any seawater from around the world. The variables you speak of are minuscule compared to the variations in salt mixes.

[kthehun89]

It's just a discussion, I'm having fun proving my point, obviously someone got so butthurt that they had to start name dropping. I was just being polite and following example.

 

Seawater is superior and far more consistent.

 

/thread.

 

My bad, I felt that you were a little condescending by asking whether I'm a professional or not...like it makes a difference.

 

Hooray for sea water, it's free, organic, and oh-so-good for your corals. I can attest that corals thrive in NSW tanks. Locally in SD, there are people who make there own saltwater, and those who use scripps, and there is a difference...

 

So if you can find a good source of seawater, then by all means use it. Just be careful that the collection site is far from anthropogenic inputs and try not to get water after rains or during a red-tide/ algal bloom