squirrelieygrrrl Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 exactly! im pretty sure the same mathematics are at work here with smaller daily changes. im no math whiz by any means but im fairly sure that the total dillution of variable 'x' has a higher decrease in one chunk than in multiple smaller ones. not to discount what you have been achieving with your results thus far.. from how i understand it, that regime may not be sustainable long term, to adequately manage variable 'x'. Link to comment
Formula462 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 exactly! im pretty sure the same mathematics are at work here with smaller daily changes. im no math whiz by any means but im fairly sure that the total dillution of variable 'x' has a higher decrease in one chunk than in multiple smaller ones. not to discount what you have been achieving with your results thus far.. from how i understand it, that regime may not be sustainable long term, to adequately manage variable 'x'. what you mean small, frequent water changing does not work long term? sure it does. but it's only one way of doing it is what were/should have gotten at. Link to comment
TheWAND Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 exactly! im pretty sure the same mathematics are at work here with smaller daily changes. im no math whiz by any means but im fairly sure that the total dillution of variable 'x' has a higher decrease in one chunk than in multiple smaller ones. not to discount what you have been achieving with your results thus far.. from how i understand it, that regime may not be sustainable long term, to adequately manage variable 'x'. Yes, but the wastes releasing nutrients back into the tank that are removed through daily water changes have to be taken into account too. Thus, making this whole argument... kind of impossible to prove either way and pointless. Link to comment
Formula462 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 da poo leachez the toxinz Link to comment
HecticDialectics Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yes, but the wastes releasing nutrients back into the tank that are removed through daily water changes have to be taken into account too. Thus, making this whole argument... kind of impossible to prove either way and pointless. It's actually not impossible at all to prove. You just have to work through the math. Like I tried to say so many pages ago, ratios will always be the same. It doesn't matter if it's a 10 gallon tank or a 100 gallon tank. Over the course of a month, a daily water change regime of 1% will remove 4% less nutrients than a single monthly 30% change. Randy-Holmes Farley already did the work for you. READ THE ARTICLE! lol The daily water changes result in more stable water parameters. But daily water changes remove a small-percentage-fewer nutrients. The BIG question here, since Randy Holmes-Farley already proved that EITHER WAY (daily, weekly, monthly, etc) you still have to dose Ca and alk (for corals that undergo calcification) unless you are doing HUGE daily water changes, what, exactly, is the benefit to doing it every day versus every week or every two weeks or every month? The more often you do a water change, the smaller your swings in parameters will be. Do we draw the line at daily? Every few days? Every week? Every month? How does this relate to nutrient removal? ROUTINE water changes are only ONE mechanism by which we remove nutrients and replace trace elements in the tank. By using the same ratios above, it should be quite apparent that switching between a weekly/biweekly/monthly schedule to a daily schedule results in NO EXTRA nutrient removal. If you have nutrient problems, will small daily water changes help? No. In order to make a significant dent in nutrient levels in an out of control aquarium, you should do LARGER water changes MORE FREQUENTLY! The big point here is two-fold: 1) recognizing a difference between routine and problem-solving maintenance; and 2) it's all about balance. If your tank has nutrient problems, you need to find the CAUSE of the problem! Water changes make a such a small dent in nutrient removal, that it is easy for your tank to create MORE nutrients than you are TAKING OUT, resulting in high nitrates, phosphates, etc. This is why routine water changes alone aren't enough; you must do EXTRA water changes. But if you go back to a routine water change schedule without modifying any of the other elements of nutrient creation (decaying stuff on live rock, overfeeding, oversized bioload, detritus traps), you will CONTINUE to have nutrient problems. So should you do a small daily water change, a weekly change, a monthly change? Big monthly changes result in bigger swings in parameters than smaller daily, weekly, or biweekly changes. Many tanks do monthly changes and still win TOTM here on Nano-Reef and ReefCentral. Same goes for weekly changes and biweekly changes. There's more than one way to skin a cat. The real answer: it's entirely up to you, people do it all sorts of ways! The important thing is that, either way, you MUST have your nutrients, calcium, alkalinity, etc. under control! Final point worth noting, it IS possible to keep nutrients, calcium, and alkalinity in check with LARGE and FREQUENT water changes. The benefit of a nano is that it is easier to haul around and change out 25-50% of a nano-tank's water. Doing a 50% water change in a 3 gallon tank, for example, only involves 1.5 gallons of water. You could mix a 5 gallon bucket of saltwater at the beginning of the week, and over the course of 7 days, change out 50% of your water three times. Try that with a 100 gallon tank and no fancy computer automation! lol Link to comment
Formula462 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 thats the only reason i do it. it's easy for me to. when i start throwing in a lot more stuff with skeletons and shells, i'm gonna have to learn the way of cal/alk dosing. i have a 10 and a 14 setup. if i had a 100 gallon setup, i would try to have it as self sufficient as possible. what i really need is a damn ato for this cube. Link to comment
reefer916 Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 It's actually not impossible at all to prove. You just have to work through the math. Like I tried to say so many pages ago, ratios will always be the same. It doesn't matter if it's a 10 gallon tank or a 100 gallon tank. Over the course of a month, a daily water change regime of 1% will remove 4% less nutrients than a single monthly 30% change. Randy-Holmes Farley already did the work for you. READ THE ARTICLE! lol The daily water changes result in more stable water parameters. But daily water changes remove a small-percentage-fewer nutrients. The BIG question here, since Randy Holmes-Farley already proved that EITHER WAY (daily, weekly, monthly, etc) you still have to dose Ca and alk (for corals that undergo calcification) unless you are doing HUGE daily water changes, what, exactly, is the benefit to doing it every day versus every week or every two weeks or every month? The more often you do a water change, the smaller your swings in parameters will be. Do we draw the line at daily? Every few days? Every week? Every month? How does this relate to nutrient removal? ROUTINE water changes are only ONE mechanism by which we remove nutrients and replace trace elements in the tank. By using the same ratios above, it should be quite apparent that switching between a weekly/biweekly/monthly schedule to a daily schedule results in NO EXTRA nutrient removal. If you have nutrient problems, will small daily water changes help? No. In order to make a significant dent in nutrient levels in an out of control aquarium, you should do LARGER water changes MORE FREQUENTLY! The big point here is two-fold: 1) recognizing a difference between routine and problem-solving maintenance; and 2) it's all about balance. If your tank has nutrient problems, you need to find the CAUSE of the problem! Water changes make a such a small dent in nutrient removal, that it is easy for your tank to create MORE nutrients than you are TAKING OUT, resulting in high nitrates, phosphates, etc. This is why routine water changes alone aren't enough; you must do EXTRA water changes. But if you go back to a routine water change schedule without modifying any of the other elements of nutrient creation (decaying stuff on live rock, overfeeding, oversized bioload, detritus traps), you will CONTINUE to have nutrient problems. So should you do a small daily water change, a weekly change, a monthly change? Big monthly changes result in bigger swings in parameters than smaller daily, weekly, or biweekly changes. Many tanks do monthly changes and still win TOTM here on Nano-Reef and ReefCentral. Same goes for weekly changes and biweekly changes. There's more than one way to skin a cat. The real answer: it's entirely up to you, people do it all sorts of ways! The important thing is that, either way, you MUST have your nutrients, calcium, alkalinity, etc. under control! Final point worth noting, it IS possible to keep nutrients, calcium, and alkalinity in check with LARGE and FREQUENT water changes. The benefit of a nano is that it is easier to haul around and change out 25-50% of a nano-tank's water. Doing a 50% water change in a 3 gallon tank, for example, only involves 1.5 gallons of water. You could mix a 5 gallon bucket of saltwater at the beginning of the week, and over the course of 7 days, change out 50% of your water three times. Try that with a 100 gallon tank and no fancy computer automation! lol I think you missed the entire point of this thread. It's not comparing equal amounts of water changed over a period of a week or once a week. The point of this thread is to show people how to change out large percentages of water volume without shocking your system. The 1% a day water change compared to a 30% water change is irrelevant because we all know that one single water change will take out more nutrients than the same amount of water done through daily. It's not even math, but common sense. This thread is pretty much 10-15% daily water changes with a 30-40% water change at the end of the week. Changing out this amount of water will reduce excess nutrients. It's true that if you swapped out 100% of your water at the end of the week you'll take more nutrients out, but you'll probably shock your corals. This keeps the system clean and the corals healthy and happy. Your math was actually covered in the first 2 pages of this thread in a discussion with other reefers. If we want to change out 70% of our water over a period of a week it's better to do so through daily changes, rather than a single 70% water change weekly. It really doesn't matter because at the end of the day I know what works best for my system and many others have had great success doing daily water changes. There are many reefers who have successful tanks doing weekly, monthly, and even annual water changes. The nice thing is that there hasn't been any negative experiences on this thread by doing the daily water changes. Link to comment
HecticDialectics Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 That's cool. I just helped you explain why. I mean I think I can speak for everyone when I say it's absolutely not surprised at all that constantly adding fresh new water to your tank it'll stay healthy. But the whys and whens I think are more important to discuss. Link to comment
reefer916 Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Although I love debates and discussions. I do this hobby because I enjoy watching my corals grow and sharing my experiences with other reefers. I believe that pictures speak more than a thousand words and there are many different ways to achieve success. These will be some of the last pics I post of my 24 gallon because as you see it's getting overcrowded and my 45 gallon is almost ready for transfers. Link to comment
HecticDialectics Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 yeah, healthy corals, constant water changes, no surprise. Nice tanks! :thumbsup: If you just wanted this thread to be about your tanks and your water changes practices with no discussion on theory or reasoning, then take it to the member's aquariums forum, lol You seem to have been struggling with this on every page of the last 8 pages. Link to comment
dickie52 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 not to rain on anyone's parade, but this is kind of a no-brainer. if you do lots of water changes, your tank will be healthier. duh. BINGO Link to comment
Deleted User 6 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 hey guys i was thinking about doing some water changes on my tanks does that actually help? Link to comment
jeremai Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 photos are useless; a tank with daily water changes could look like crap, and a tank that hasn't had any water changed in a year can look spectacular. water changes are recommended for small volume tanks because they are the quickest, cheapest, easiest way of removing nutrients from the system and of correcting noob mistakes like overfeeding and overcrowding. 4% discrepancy over a month re: daily vs monthly changes? negligible, imo. while prevention is important, I've learned over the years that water changes in established systems (read: >1yr) should be used mainly in case of emergency or as a temporary stopgap until nutrient inputs can be addressed, rather than an ongoing maintenance ritual. many of the 'expert' articles linked in this thread and others support my personal experience. that leads me to support large, infrequent changes over small, frequent changes for established systems, and the opposite for new systems and/or new reefers. Link to comment
Deleted User 6 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 why so mad? you disagree. so what? Link to comment
jeremai Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Sounds good, guess this thread was a waste of everyone's time. Please close this thread. seriously? you need to lighten up. no one is saying that your method is bad or wrong or sucks or whatever. grow a pair, lol. Link to comment
Deleted User 6 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 Well at least now we know you're a douche. Have fun in the tropics coolguy. Link to comment
cptbjorn Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I'm all good.. I can't justify wasting $250hr of income posting on this thread with 14 year olds. Going over 6th grade math questions. I have no idea why some of you guys get under my skin, but cocky teenagers don't really do it for me.I'm a Certified Financial Planner with a $100 million book of business. My balls dropped long ago and my 4 year old has more hands on reefing experience than most of the guys who posted in the last day. I'm just better off focusing on work, my family, and experiencing the real coral reefs on my trips to Belize, Caribbean, and Hawaii this year. I started this thread because it was working for me and thought it would help. Now its just time for me to move on. also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect Link to comment
Orange Crush Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I'm all good.. I can't justify wasting $250hr of income posting on this thread with 14 year olds. Going over 6th grade math questions. I have no idea why some of you guys get under my skin, but cocky teenagers don't really do it for me.I'm a Certified Financial Planner with a $100 million book of business. My balls dropped long ago and my 4 year old has more hands on reefing experience than most of the guys who posted in the last day. I'm just better off focusing on work, my family, and experiencing the real coral reefs on my trips to Belize, Caribbean, and Hawaii this year. I started this thread because it was working for me and thought it would help. Now its just time for me to move on. From the thread or from the forum? Cause one of these 14 year olds is claiming you're running away from the forum. If that's the case, I have a list to add you to. If not, you shouldn't put up with these 14 year olds. Link to comment
jeremai Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I'M 14 AND A HALF THANK YOU VERY MUCH. Link to comment
jimbro Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 i'm 12 and what is this? Link to comment
Deleted User 6 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 My favorite part was where he thinks $100m is an impressive book of business. California, lol. Link to comment
reeftankguy Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 My favorite part was where he thinks $100m is an impressive book of business. California, lol. The really impressive part is he thinks it matters to all us teens Link to comment
HecticDialectics Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 photos are useless; a tank with daily water changes could look like crap, and a tank that hasn't had any water changed in a year can look spectacular. You mean, every single tank that makes TOTM on RC and NR? Virtually all of them have weekly, biweekly, and monthly water change regimes. also $250/hr? jus starting pay... Link to comment
jeremai Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 why on earth would I close the thread? you, HD and others have all contributed valuable information. just because you got your panties in a twist doesn't mean everyone needs to suffer. for someone who keeps touting age and experience (of which the latter is trumped by myself for sure, possibly by HD, DHaut and others) you sure are acting like a child. You mean, every single tank that makes TOTM on RC and NR? Virtually all of them have weekly, biweekly, and monthly water change regimes. I remember an RC TOTM from way back that hadn't had a water change in a couple years. not a nano, though. I wouldn't recommend that for a nano, not when the benefits of water changes so far outweigh the risks. Link to comment
paneubert Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 While teaching your kids manners, be sure to have them read through this thread to see how their mommy/daddy responds to people who do not agree with him/her Edit: To keep it relevant.....I do weekly water changes just for the fun of it. About 20 percent. At the least it stirs up the crap on the sand. Link to comment
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