Training & Feeding a Mandarin

[Khayman]

Pretty sure only one person has successfully bred and reared Mandarins, would you care to elaborate which breeder you are refering to? Also time and experience has proven that my method works given the procedure is carried out correctly. I never said place the food in the tank, your supposed to place it in a smaller container, such as a little cube and place the food in that. Its ####ing mandarin, no E.

 

Greenstar

 

The Breeder is located in Kitchener Ontario.

Also I apologize for my earlier comment, but you did say "I have trained a number mandarins to eat frozen food with a relatively high success rate by placing them in small space and putting in exaggerated amounts of frozen food (mysis, brine, cyclops) 2x daily and siphoning the excess food out daily. They learn what the food looks like from picking at it and in a week or two most will readily feed out of the water column".

Nowhere in that did you ever mention a small feeding container. You do state to put the Mandarine in a small tank and add an excess amount of food, then siphon out the uneaten.

[SeeDemTails]

SeeDemTails

 

Thank you for all your insight. If you were able to elaborate on your techniques it would be appreciated. I am sure we will understand if you cannot since you do work for a retailer. The breeder I purchased my Mandarine from has asked me not to post what they do to train. I respect that seeing that they do try and make money by selling Mandarines that eat frozen. Though I will say it is meant as a supplement. They told me that they do believe they could live on frozen alone but they do not suggest it. That is why I am culturing pods and Brine. The Brine is a lot easier to hatch and keep than the pods.

 

I have no problem sharing my technique, I have shared it with many many people. In fact, I think that if your friend is successfully breeding them and doing so with fish he taught to eat frozen with some elaborate secret method, that he specifically does not want to share, then he is no better than the crappy LFS's who count on them dying so people come back and buy another.

 

If he is going to breed and sell them, he should be on the front lines of making this fish a success. If those are not his motives, he has no business doing what he is supposedly doing.

 

Also anyone who attempts to train them to pick food out of the water column really has no clue what they are doing. The fish eat much more when eating off a surface. Feeding a mandarin in the water column is like making a dog jump for every bite.

[javisaman]

Also anyone who attempts to train them to pick food out of the water column really has no clue what they are doing. The fish eat much more when eating off a surface. Feeding a mandarin in the water column is like making a dog jump for every bite.

 

+1. Though I wouldn't call my limited experience with my green mandarin a success (3 weeks...) I did manage to get it to eat frozen spirulina brine using SDT's method. I found that squirting the food on the rocks near the mandarin was most effective for me. The crabs/nass snails are usually too slow to get it before the mandarin does and the other fish (two clowns) usually can't reach there. I must also add that I've been feeding nearly 10-15 spirulina brine a day, though the mandarin has noticeably improved I can't say with confidence that it is "healthy". Good thing I have an oversized skimmer and fuge! My pod population hasn't changed much. In fact I'd say my amphipod population has grown (maybe to the heavy feeding) so much so that they are becoming a big nuisance. They've killed off one of my acclimating zoa colonies.

 

I also notice that the fish is incredibly picky. If I let the brine thaw for too long (30 min) then it won't eat it. If I add too much Selcon, it won't eat it. If I add garlic, it won't eat it. If I make any sudden movements while its eating it'lI stop and never return. I hope you get the point. It still avoids mysis like the plague, but so do my clowns. Is there something wrong with Hikari mysis?

[Khayman]

javisaman

 

I do not think there is anything wrong with the Mysis you are using. You may just have pick fish. My Mandarine eats Mysis but she does prefer Daphenea and Brine. I am going to try the feeding station idea that Kozo linked to me to try and teach her to eat pellets. I will do this by adding pellets to the mixture of frozen she already eats. I will keep you all posted on the results of this method.

[SeeDemTails]

I have no problem sharing my technique, I have shared it with many many people. In fact, I think that if your friend is successfully breeding them and doing so with fish he taught to eat frozen with some elaborate secret method, that he specifically does not want to share, then he is no better than the crappy LFS's who count on them dying so people come back and buy another.

 

If he is going to breed and sell them, he should be on the front lines of making this fish a success. If those are not his motives, he has no business doing what he is supposedly doing.

 

Also anyone who attempts to train them to pick food out of the water column really has no clue what they are doing. The fish eat much more when eating off a surface. Feeding a mandarin in the water column is like making a dog jump for every bite.

 

Did you catch any of that? About how what your friend is doing is wrong?

 

I have to say, I appreciate the fact you are trying to help people with their mandarins, but you have no qualifications or rights to do so, and to someone like me who has been doing this for a long time and even has two mandarins in a 37 gal tank, one for almost a year and a half, it's down right offensive. You have no more experience than the people who's questions you're answering.

 

This is why people are unsuccessful with these fish, because unexperienced people who read something, "know someone", or saw their mandarin eat a little frozen get on these forums and claim they have all the answers and you need pod piles and refugiums ect ect.......Your methods are not proven by yourself, you have no long term first hand experience or success, there for you have no right to tell anyone else how to keep these fish.

 

Leave the advice giving to people who have been there, and done that, first hand, with success.

[Khayman]

If he is going to breed and sell them, he should be on the front lines of making this fish a success. If those are not his motives, he has no business doing what he is supposedly doing.

 

SDT

 

I accept that you believe the breeder is question should release there training techniques, especially because it does work. However I also agree with the breeder, who has read this thread, what they would like to state is that they have invested time and money into this process. Also fish and coral breeding/raising is how they make a living. I agree with you both however. I agree with you because it would help a lot of people in the raising of these beautiful fish. I agree with the breeder because we do live in a capitalistic country and they have found a way to make money, also they incur all the risk in the training.

 

As for me having, no qualifications or right to give advise, I disagree. I have done a lot of research on these little fish. If I fail in the keeping of this Mandarine I will be up front and honest about it. Also on the flip side if after 6 months it is still alive I would consider that a small success. You also stated you would be happy to share what your methods in keeping these fish are. Do you have it posted already? Could you supply a link?

 

I am happy that you posted on this thread as well, because I was told you come highly recommended for anyone who has questions on Mandarines. I did send you a message asking for some information a little while ago, though I did not get a response until now.

[SeeDemTails]

You should tell your friend that "all the money" they invested in frozen foods isnt worth withholding a method of feeding a specialty fish they plan to breed and sell. Like I said, are they going to give instructions on how to continue maintaining the fish, or are they just going to sell them to LFS's? If thats the case they are no better than the people who import these fish, and are going backwards, not forwards in that progress. You should also tell them it isnt that hard to do, and many people now have trained fish, its not a secret.

 

So you succeed in breeding the fish using prepared foods, now what, you sell them but keep the feeding method secret?.....Thats a death sentence to the fish.

 

You have done research, and read what other have done, but just because you have done this research you are not qualified to give advice on how to keep the fish. Sorry, you just aren't. You may be able to carry on a discussion about what you have read and researched, but you do not have the right to give people advice, when you have done nothing yourself to warrant this.

 

As far as how I do this, it is so simple I can sum it up in a few sentences:

 

1. Using syringe and live brine, target feed mandarin until it comes towards the tube for food.

 

2. The try mixing mysis or spirulina brine with the live brine.

 

3. After the fish accepts frozen feed only frozen, I like a 50/50 mix of mysis and spirulina brine.

 

Dozens of fish have been trained this way, even fish brought to us that were fully emaciated.

 

Target feeding the fish along the back of the tank or in a corner allows them to ingest much more food than chasing a few floaters around the water column.

[Khayman]

You should tell your friend that "all the money" they invested in frozen foods isnt worth withholding a method of feeding a specialty fish they plan to breed and sell. Like I said, are they going to give instructions on how to continue maintaining the fish, or are they just going to sell them to LFS's? If thats the case they are no better than the people who import these fish, and are going backwards, not forwards in that progress. You should also tell them it isnt that hard to do, and many people now have trained fish, its not a secret.

 

So you succeed in breeding the fish using prepared foods, now what, you sell them but keep the feeding method secret?.....Thats a death sentence to the fish.

 

You have done research, and read what other have done, but just because you have done this research you are not qualified to give advice on how to keep the fish. Sorry, you just aren't. You may be able to carry on a discussion about what you have read and researched, but you do not have the right to give people advice, when you have done nothing yourself to warrant this.

 

As far as how I do this, it is so simple I can sum it up in a few sentences:

 

1. Using syringe and live brine, target feed mandarin until it comes towards the tube for food.

 

2. The try mixing mysis or spirulina brine with the live brine.

 

3. After the fish accepts frozen feed only frozen, I like a 50/50 mix of mysis and spirulina brine.

 

Dozens of fish have been trained this way, even fish brought to us that were fully emaciated.

 

Target feeding the fish along the back of the tank or in a corner allows them to ingest much more food than chasing a few floaters around the water column.

 

Thank you SDT for your instruction. Also the breeder does tell the LFS they sell too what the Mandarines eat. I do not know if all the stores that buy these fish share that information. I do however know that my LFS does. I was also told that they graze off of the rocks. As for the pod condos I use them to transfer pods I have cultured from my culture to the tank with the Mandarine. I also feed her live baby brine that I culture. I know there are people out there that have also stated that it is a waste of money to culture the pods and brine. To this I will say you are wrong the cultures seem to be very cheap to setup. My brine cost me about $20.00 and the pod about $30.00. I thought brine would be harder to raise than the pods, boy was I wrong. I have more brine shrimp than I will ever use. I have given alot away to friends for there fish.

[Urchinhead]

Khayman-

 

How are you raising your pods and brine? Are you enriching them with something? I am thinking that an auto-feeder function using a reservoir for brine and hooking it to a peristaltic pump system that I am already using for two part dosing and have it add live brine/pods on a schedule over the day. The key being how to sustain and perpetuate a pod population that doesn't require a complex setup.

[Boomboy]

well i read through this entire thread... no comment but SDT can i have a link to your thread, i am very intersted in reading through it. i would like to keep a mandarin in my 80 cube, but would still like to have it on prepared food, and am willing to invest in this fish. thanks again.

 

i must say i have in the past thought i knew what the problem was with someones tank, to be wrong, so good luck with this thread

[Kozo]

SDT I do Agree with many of the advise and arguments you have shared with us and thank you for it, however I think you are completely wrong by advising everyone to get an unhealthy (skinny down to the bone) fish, you said it yourself that you have plenty of experience with your training so it should be easier for you to bring them back to a plum figure, but not all the beginners out there have your knowledge, willingness and the time that you have. So if you advise them to buy a fish in such a state they will be closer to failure and just end up with a dead fish. Now I never said that the fish should starve or anything like it, however some fish will not give in into the feeding that easily and will refuse to eat (starve). So having a fat mandarin would give you more room for error and learning time for the training.

 

Now about the LFS problem, I would just add that I have seem the same problem where they starve some mandarins and I had give the same advise as you, but the owners will just tell you that they do not have the time to put into the training, so they just don't care.

 

The next thing I would like to add is that your training method is very effective, however you forgot to mention that you train them on a 5 gallon cube in isolation (I read it on another thread that you posted on) and it seems they were already eating LBS (some mandarins will refuse to eat LBS). I personally have done the same as you did or rather my fish knew that my syringe meant food so he waited for it, however this method did not work in my display tank since my other fish are very smart and would not allow it. Thats why I suggested the feeding station, which is what I'm training my fish into right now, and so far so good (I first wean him down to frozen, then train him to the station).

 

I would like to add that this fish survival is not only about eating frozen or not, and on pods population, but also on the tank-mates this fish will have since he have to compete for the food given, even in the feeding station or pods around the tank. I would suggest to omit shrimps since they are very aggressive eater and will have easy access to any spot in the tank (feeding station). I do keep a fire shrimp but I have to feed him a large piece of food to keep him entertain while the mandarin eats. I may have to get him out in order to ease the process. Also you need to consider a competitor any other fish that will eat the pods in the tank, such as six line wrasse.

 

The last thing I would add is that a Synchiropus Picturatus are usually more willing to eat prepared foods than a Synchiropus Splendidus. SDT hope you could give us some info about which fish you consider easier to train. I know you do keep two Synchiropus Picturatus in your tank, but I'm not sure if you train the Splendidus. This last info was dig from some reefers at MOFIB such as Matthew L. Wittenrich and Matt Pedersen, who do have first hand experience with both fish. Thanks again for all the info shared with us. And Khayman I also think you do not have the experience needed, but it seem you have yet listened my advises. Good luck you all

[SeeDemTails]

Kozo, I have trained both types, and I am actually training a pair of Splendidus for my 60. They are living together now, and I hope to keep them that way.

 

I personally havent noticed a difference in the ease of training either types. Both usually take to eating right away, although I have had a couple fish take up to 3 or 4 days to start eating, although I think it had to do more with the stress of transport ect versus the fishes willingness to eat those foods.

 

I encourage people to buy the fish who are starving because it really is not that hard to train the fish. If you buy it with the intentions to put the effort into training it, then you are doing that fish a great favor and most definitely saving its life. I have saved some really bad ones, so it can be done.

 

And if the fish doesnt have access to pods, and someone isnt feeding it, the difference between a starving fish and a fat one is just a couple days if you get my drift.

[BKtomodachi]

You have done research, and read what other have done, but just because you have done this research you are not qualified to give advice on how to keep the fish. Sorry, you just aren't. You may be able to carry on a discussion about what you have read and researched, but you do not have the right to give people advice, when you have done nothing yourself to warrant this.

this.

 

also, lol@thread

[reefman225gal]

Now that quote is funny...lol ^^^^

[bodythief]

have any of you try feeding mandarins roe? i read in TFH mag that a guy was successfully feeding them this with good results. i believe he said he was purchasing it from a local asian grocery market. I hope this hasnt been answer and its kinda off topic.

[Khayman]

Khayman-

 

How are you raising your pods and brine? Are you enriching them with something? I am thinking that an auto-feeder function using a reservoir for brine and hooking it to a peristaltic pump system that I am already using for two part dosing and have it add live brine/pods on a schedule over the day. The key being how to sustain and perpetuate a pod population that doesn't require a complex setup.

 

Urchinhead

 

Brine - I am raising the brine in a 500ml beaker. The rubber stopper has an airline inserted through the middle to allow air to be pumped into the beaker. They are fed "Photoplancton" and the eggs hatch within 12 - 24hrs. I then keep them fed and raise them for about 1 week to a size I like.

 

Pods - I had a 5g aquarium that I have stocked with live rock, rubble and macro algea (Chaetomorpha crassa). I started the culture by buying ZOO2 and adding it to the 5g. I also have a few Condos in this tank that the pods readily fill. I also have nontoxic plastic dish scrubbers in the tank I have these so if the Condos are not working as I like I can always shake the pods out of the scrubber into the main tank. I have also just added Dr. Adelaide Rhodes Oceanpods to the culture. I did this after reading that Mandarines do not only eat copods but many forms of pods.

 

Both cultures are very successful. They brine population has exploded to the point I have given a lot of it away. The pod population is also growing though not as fast as the Brine.

 

The Red Mandarine is still alive and well. I have also implemented the diner idea Kozo posted to me. She does enter the diner and eat frozen. I also did the same idea with live brine and she went crazy in it. I estimate it had 200-500 brine in it and she cleared out in less than 3 minutes. The brine that escaped the diner were soon finished off by my clown fish and my GF’s Orchid Dottyback.

[javisaman]

It ate 200-500 brine?!! Adult brine?!!

 

Maybe I'm not feeding it enough, cuz I only give 10-15 spirulina a day.

[Khayman]

It ate 200-500 brine?!! Adult brine?!!

 

Maybe I'm not feeding it enough, cuz I only give 10-15 spirulina a day.

 

No not all of them and they were babies. The brine is the size of a piece of sand or smaller.

[Urchinhead]

Thank you.

 

Sorry mate but what is Photoplancton? I Googled it but nothing came up... Do you mean phytoplankton?

 

So let me get this right...

 

500 ml beeker

Air hose

Some form of plankton

Water

 

Is that it? How is it self sustaining? Does the air hose go into the water with an airstone? Temp issues?

[Khayman]

Thank you.

 

Sorry mate but what is Photoplancton? I Googled it but nothing came up... Do you mean phytoplankton?

 

So let me get this right...

 

500 ml beeker

Air hose

Some form of plankton

Water

 

Is that it? How is it self sustaining? Does the air hose go into the water with an airstone? Temp issues?

 

Urchinhead

 

I will do my best to get some pictures up soon. I have had a few issues with my camera as of late.

 

Materials:

500ml Beaker, Rubber stopper, Airline, air hose, air pump, daylight bulb, lamp, Brine shrimp eggs, and photo-plankton or phyto-plankton (both should work). I use photo

 

Note: be sure your beaker and airlines are clean and sterile.

 

Step 1

Drill a small hole in the centre of the rubber stopper. Then insert the Airline so that it is about 2" from the bottom of the beaker when the stopper is in place. Also leave about 1" sticking out the top of beaker. Attach air hose to the top of the Airline. Then attach the air hose to the air pump. This will create aeration for the culture. Be sure to leave sufficient room around the airline so that air can escape. If you do not do this stopper will pop off once air pressure builds up.

 

Step 2

Fill the beaker about ¾ with saltwater and add plankton to the mixture. (I use the water that I have prepared for my Aquarium) The mixture should be green once the plankton is added. Then add about ¼ teaspoon of brine shrimp eggs. Put the rubber stopper in place and put the culture in front of your lamp. Plug in your air pump to produce aeration. Make sure your aeration is only producing about 2 to 3 bubbles every 3 to 5 seconds.

 

Note: The aeration is meant to supply oxygen to the culture not turmoil. You also do not want the culture to get to hot but you do want it warm. I placed mine about 1 foot away from my lamp. I also have the light coming in from the side. The light is on 24/7. Your brine should hatch within 8 to 12 hours depending on the eggs you buy. I use AA grade eggs. The brine fry once hatched will eat the plankton fairly fast I add plankton daily. I always make sure the mixture is green.

 

Note: I culture my plankton in this method also, only I use larger jars.

 

Once my camera is working I will post my pictures of this culture. I hope this description helps though. Also to answer your question the cultures I have are all sustaining there levels. Just remember to feed the brine culture.

[Greenstar]

Greenstar

 

The Breeder is located in Kitchener Ontario.

Also I apologize for my earlier comment, but you did say "I have trained a number mandarins to eat frozen food with a relatively high success rate by placing them in small space and putting in exaggerated amounts of frozen food (mysis, brine, cyclops) 2x daily and siphoning the excess food out daily. They learn what the food looks like from picking at it and in a week or two most will readily feed out of the water column".

Nowhere in that did you ever mention a small feeding container. You do state to put the Mandarine in a small tank and add an excess amount of food, then siphon out the uneaten.

 

Name please.

 

Also that should help you with your reading comprehension

[Khayman]

Greenstar

 

I am sorry but as you have it written it seems you put the mandarine in a small space. Did you mean the food goes in the small space? If so I agree fully with you. After Kozo linked me the Mandarine dinner I tried it and my Red loves the little dinner.

[Greenstar]

Name of the breeder?

[Greenstar]

http://www.seafish.org/pdf.pl?file=seafish...ments/SR487.pdf

 

Article to help you understand why Tisbe are not a good copepod to attempt to culture in situ.

[Khayman]

http://www.seafish.org/pdf.pl?file=seafish...ments/SR487.pdf

 

Article to help you understand why Tisbe are not a good copepod to attempt to culture in situ.

 

Ty Greenstar

 

I will read the article and take it into consideration. Though I will say they are producing pods on a much larger scale than I would be.

 

Name please.

 

Also that should help you with your reading comprehension

 

I will get the name they run there company under for you next time I am at the LFS.