Cold Water Nano

[Jamie]

Yep, a lot of the anemones do get huge. Strawberry nems stay small though (1-1.5 in.) and the the epiactis anemones don't get more than 3.5 inches wide. all the others are at least a foot though.

 

I believe you are talking about Anthopleura xanthogrammica, my book's picture isn't very good, but they are very pretty nems as well. A. elegantissima (aggregating nem) and A. sola (green nem) look similar and usually stay quite small. Like you said, they all need to be fed every few days because most of them are not photosynthetic.

 

Although there are incredibly beautful cold water soft corals, I wouldn't even bother with them, because I'm sure that their care requrements are similar to dendronephthya or scleronephthya.

 

btw, for collecting in Oregon, all you need is a shellfilsh license. The limit is ten non-food inverts per person per day.

[DudE31]

The limit is ten non-food inverts per person per day.

that seems like quite a bit lol

[Phixion]

FYI since it's been mentioned a couple times in here...

[Maeda]

john if you're really serious about collecting, I will order a 13inch cube with 1in acrylic to build a cold water system. I want some lumpsuckers damnit

 

 

holy crap! I want one! where do i get it?

 

how big does it get?

[supernip]

I dunno. I saw them at the aquarium at ucsd so I figured they must be somewhat local. I'm depending on you to get me some, plus strawberries. DOOOOOOOOOO IT

[Maeda]

I dunno. I saw them at the aquarium at ucsd so I figured they must be somewhat local. I'm depending on you to get me some, plus strawberries. DOOOOOOOOOO IT

 

depending on me!? I'm still way off from getting certified. I still don't even know how I would setup a cold water. This research isn't really getting me anywhere fast. I think I need to expand my research to actual science papers and journals. The internet for the first time is letting me down. :\ or i could resort to harassing steve weast until he answers everything i can think of.

[supernip]

You could ask the people at scripps institute of oceanography in la jolla, or long beach aquarium. And visit the aquarium to notice how the tanks are set up.

 

I figured there'd be a lot of turbulence in a tidepool-ish tank but there isn't that much noticeable flow from what i remember from my various trips to scripps and the monterey bay aquarium. I wonder if the water is nutrient rich

[Phixion]

Time for the Tunze wavebox if you set this up John.

[justinl]

how to get a lumpsucker... that is a good question. collecting wild may be tricky as many people dive where they live but never see them. for one, they can be quite reclusive and two, they just aren't that common. You might get a few contacts with a public aquarium and beg them for one... dunno if they're even allowed to sell to the general public though. I do know that many PAs have mad connections in the fish trade and MAY be able to pull a few strings. a long shot, but ya never know.

 

btw they dont grow very big... maybe a few inches in length. but they do well in captivity from what ive seen. yes, they have been bred in captivity as well which is why i think getting one tank raised is your best shot.

[cyenna]

btw, for collecting in Oregon, all you need is a shellfilsh license. The limit is ten non-food inverts per person per day.

 

 

good to know.

 

EDIT: if you want more info in Steve Weast's tanks, his website is: http://www.oregonreef.com/ and here's the link for his tank at our local club: LINK

[Jamie]

Although I have never kept a lumpsucker, I had a snail fish, which is a close relative. It was probably one of the most boring animals I have ever kept. Snailfish spend their entire lives pretending to be rocks, which makes them very lame as pets, unless you enjoy pet rocks. I can't say with certainty that a lumpsucker would be the same, but personally I would avoid them.

 

Edit: cyenna, you might want to check on the regulations before collecting, I wouldn't want you to get fined if I'm wrong

[steveweast]

:\ or i could resort to harassing steve weast until he answers everything i can think of.

 

 

 

I've made some changes since that pic of mine that you posted. Here are a few updated pics.

 

 

 

What questions might you have ?

 

 

 

[Jamie]

Yes! Steve is here! . I worship your tanks!

 

Now how about some of those strawberry nems?

 

I also see you have some gorgonians. How often, and what, do you feed them? Also have you kept any soft corals?

 

The basket star is amazing!

 

I was going to post pics of my coldwater tank, but I might be too embarrassed now .

 

-Jamie

 

Edit: ah, wait I see one (soft coral) in the second pic up from the bottom. Gersemia rubiformis perhaps?

 

Double Edit: Steve, you would know, could you confirm whether I am right about collecting regs in OR?

[megan]

WTF? You almost have me saying "science shmience" those look like they have to be created by someone/something that appreciates beauty.

 

UNREAL!!!

 

I also see you have some gorgonians. How often, and what, do you feed them? -Jamie

 

 

Yes, I am struggling with this!!!

[steveweast]

I also see you have some gorgonians. How often, and what, do you feed them? Also have you kept any soft corals?

 

 

Edit: ah, wait I see one (soft coral) in the second pic up from the bottom. Gersemia rubiformis perhaps?

 

Double Edit: Steve, you would know, could you confirm whether I am right about collecting regs in OR?

 

 

 

As you all know, cold water critters need to be fed frequently. I feed all my critters daily a variety of foods including cylopeese, rotifers, mysis, scallop, clam......and, I always bring back live plankton from every dive (at least during spring and summer when plankton blooms are plentiful). The idea is to only try to keep critters that have large enough polyps to accept the food particle size that is available to us. This is why I won't even try some things like nudibranchs. I also feed some things naturally.....for example....I place live clams from the asian market in the tank for my bi-valve eating starfish. This way, the stars eat when they're ready. The clams just live until a star finds them. In the pics above, the purple star is actually opening a clam. It takes him about three days to open one. It's too early to say...or give advice....as to what we can and cannot keep. To a point, we're breaking new ground here.....but, suffice it to say that the yellow crinoid in the above pics has been with me for three years now (I was never able to keep a warm water crinoid alive). I haven't had the gorgs long enough to declare victory yet....but, they have not receded yet, are open everyday, and appear to capture food.

 

Meeting food requirements does by no means equal success. Temperature, flow, water quality all play a part too for each critter. For example, I found that if the NO3 level rises above 25ppm, the corynactus will start melting down. I lost about 20% of my original colony before I figured that out. The colonies have since recovered and are spreading. I'm fortunate that I can experience their natural habitat first hand regarding things like light, flow, temp, etc.

 

On the collection question....The collection requirements are very vague (especially in Wa and Or) and are subject to interpretation. The Or and Wa F&G are more concerned with salmon runs and crab size than anemone collection. In fact, the codes frequently contradict themselves....for example....in Wa, you can collect "wild animals"....but, you can't legally "keep" a "wild animal". So, to follow the code strictly, you can collect that anemone if you plan to eat it. The codes are not geared to us....they're gear for shellfish and game fish....and as a result, we fall into gray zones. The best advice that I can offer is to have all the seaweed, shellfish, and fishing licenses and stay away from preserves. Also, pay attention to the small game critters like dungeonous crab or King crab where there are size limits. California is a bit more cut and dry (and not favorable to collection)....but, for Wa and Or, it is a bit more fuzzy.

[BJK2]

Well this is amazing. I see a very cool coldwater tank, then the owner joins nano-reef.com to help out!!! Welcome Steve, you are a great addition to our reefing community.

[Jamie]

Well I totally understand about feeding often, because almost everything isn't photsynthetic. But why no nudibranchs? I have an opalescent nudi in my tank, and although in the wild they eat anemones and hydroids, when none of that is available they will scavenge. The only nems I have in my tank are Anthopleura spp. , which are resistant to nudis, so I can satisfy his needs with mysis and cyclopeeze.

 

Good idea on the clam/starfish thing. I might have to try that.

 

 

Edit: and I totally forgot, to nanoreef.com

[steveweast]

Well I totally understand about feeding often, because almost everything isn't photsynthetic. But why no nudibranchs? I have an opalescent nudi in my tank, and although in the wild they eat anemones and hydroids, when none of that is available they will scavenge. The only nems I have in my tank are Anthopleura spp. , which are resistant to nudis, so I can satisfy his needs with mysis and cyclopeeze.

 

Good idea on the clam/starfish thing. I might have to try that.

Edit: and I totally forgot, to nanoreef.com

 

 

 

Nudibranchs are too specialize of feeders for me to experiment with....besides,,,,they tend to find the overflows irrestible from what I've heard. If you have any long term success with any of them, let me know and I might try a few. I've had a couple in my tank that hitchiked in on some rock....but, they eventually disappeared.

[Maeda]

Hey everybody it's steve weast! Thanks for hopping aboard and posting!

 

I did have a few things tumbling around in my head...

Is there a good median range of temps to keep animals? or did you pick a specific area, and emulated their temps?

 

I was thining of just under 60 degrees F.

 

What kind of water quality do these guys need? I've been reading, and looking around up the coast and it seems like the water is pretty rich with nutrients. These conditions look pretty tough to recreate in such a small closed system, so i'm guessing feeding is the only option for now.

 

Do you have any specific livestock recommendations? What are you having an easy time caring for? What can't you keep?

 

Where can I find out relative sizes for these creatures? It looks like everything gets pretttyyyyyy large.

 

Thanks for the time!

[Jamie]

IMO the biggest problem with nudis is that they only have a lifespan of 1 year, so if you get one full grown, your not going to have it very long. It's hard to ever really be able to claim "long term success" because of it dies, it could've just been at the end of it's life span.

 

On an entirely unrelated note, you wouldn't happen to be related to Michael Weast, would you?

[adinsxq]

omg steve weast = my idol.

[steveweast]

Hey everybody it's steve weast! Thanks for hopping aboard and posting!

 

I did have a few things tumbling around in my head...

Is there a good median range of temps to keep animals? or did you pick a specific area, and emulated their temps?

 

I was thining of just under 60 degrees F.

 

What kind of water quality do these guys need? I've been reading, and looking around up the coast and it seems like the water is pretty rich with nutrients. These conditions look pretty tough to recreate in such a small closed system, so i'm guessing feeding is the only option for now.

 

Do you have any specific livestock recommendations? What are you having an easy time caring for? What can't you keep?

 

Where can I find out relative sizes for these creatures? It looks like everything gets pretttyyyyyy large.

 

Thanks for the time!

 

 

 

 

 

The proper temperature range is much broader in cold water tanks than its tropical cousin. When I dive in the PNW, the temperature ranges from a low of 38 F in winter to about 62F in summer......but, most of the time, I'd say the temp is around 50F - 55F. If I were keeping solely PNW critters, then I'd shoot for 50F. Since I also have a few Tasmania critters......who are used to a little higher temperature range ( say 55 F -60F) most of the time..... I have chosen to keep the tank at 55 F. Your temperature selection should be chosen with your livestock's origins in mind....but, in general, I'd say that you should be looking for something around the 55F range. Try not to choose a temp that is at an extreme......just because a region may occassionally see a 68F temp, doesn't mean tthat a 68F reef will spell long term success. Some folks also seem to think that since the source is from a tidepool that they can tolerate higher temps. Our tidepools up here are just as cold as the ocean and they get flushed with new cold water with every tide.

 

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that the water quality is poor in cold water. I'd rather say that it is teaming with life that feeds the animals.....much more so than on the relatively barren tropical reefs. In Spring and in Summer, I swim through thick clouds of phyto and plankton.....but, the water isn't high in PO4, NO3 or NO2, or fouled in any way. We just need to feed constantly and deal with the associated waste through skimming and water changes. It is true that the life in the Eastern Pacific is dependant upon deep nutrient upwellings.....I just don't think that translates into poor water quality....just water with lots of food and life.

 

 

As for livestock recommendations....I'd stay away from small mouth livestock like sponges, large barnacles, and cucumbers that filter feed. I'd also stay away from the large green tidepool anemones that are photosynthetic. In a cold water system where you are providing proper amounts of food, you'll find that you will fight a losing battle with algae if your tank is highly lit. I used to grow bull kelp quite successfully just under T5's.....but, the long hours of light needed to grow kelp, also grew algae and made the tank look terrible. I now only have full lights on (2 T5's over each tank) for 3 -4 hours a day. For the rest of the "daylight" time, the tanks just receive a general low light from a light in the equipment room. Since adopting this lighting regiment, the tanks never looked better....with minimal algae growth....and little maintenance. The critters that have been the easiest to care for are the larger anemones and the brooding anemones.

 

The size question is a hard one....I choose which critter from what I see while diving.....but for a small tank...I'd just stick with brooding anemones and strawberry anemones (which are hard to collect).

 

 

IMO the biggest problem with nudis is that they only have a lifespan of 1 year, so if you get one full grown, your not going to have it very long. It's hard to ever really be able to claim "long term success" because of it dies, it could've just been at the end of it's life span.

 

On an entirely unrelated note, you wouldn't happen to be related to Michael Weast, would you?

 

 

 

 

That is possibly true....although, I have not seen any lifespan data on our particular nudibranchs. I might have to revist that issue....since I see nudibranchs on every dive.

 

 

No relation to a Michael Weast.

[robbie]

weast is a beast

[Jamie]

No relation to a Michael Weast.

 

Dangit, I always get things like this wrong.

 

Also, where are you where it is 38 degrees? I've never seen it get below fifty (here) except at rivermouths, and the temperature there is largely from fresh water runoff. The only place I can think of that would get that cold would be norhtern canada/alaska.

 

Edit: the lifespan I have is just for opalescent nudis, I have no idea about the lifespans of other nidibranchs.

[steveweast]

Dangit, I always get things like this wrong.

 

Also, where are you where it is 38 degrees? I've never seen it get below fifty (here) except at rivermouths, and the temperature there is largely from fresh water runoff. The only place I can think of that would get that cold would be norhtern canada/alaska.

 

Edit: the lifespan I have is just for opalescent nudis, I have no idea about the lifespans of other nidibranchs.

 

 

 

 

I mostly dive in Puget Sound or the Staits of Juan de Fuca. The lowest temperature recorded on my dive computer was two years ago in January. I was diving in the Staits down around 120 ft and the temp was 38 F. Of course on shore wasn't much better.....a foot of snow and an air temp in the low teens. Most of the time, however, the water temp is in the high 40's to mid 50's. Last weekend, while diving near the far western tip of Washington, the water temp was 48 F below 80ft.

 

It's a real pita collecting this time of the year though.....I have to stop every hour to get ice to keep the critters cool in their ice chest for the 6 hour drive back to Portland. During Fall, Winter, and Spring the air temps alone keep everything cool enough...but not during Summer.